the environment is not responsible make up your own mind. dw, made full minds. there's plenty of evidence of questioning the government in russia is more dangerous of its being a living memory. my guess this week was sentenced to 25 years in jail for criticizing the war and ukraine for it was released this year and the largest east, west prison swap since the cold war. he's valid email. com was us and he's lost none of these idealism for optimism about the future. despite all evidence to the country. this british russian national insistence one day russia will become a multi free european country. and the future does not belong to our kids for leisure and repressive one manual sore chair and dictatorship science dictatorship of the future of the last year democracy and is absolutely no reason why the

russian people should not be able to live in a develop democratic system. just like the rest of europe in countries where on the, since that's come from me, i caught them was welcome to come pick tone. thank you so much for having me. i want to spend a good deal of this interview talking about your personal experiences and what you learned from them about your country, and indeed about yourself. but we're talking in what's being widely described as a period of maximum danger in east west relations. how do you think the west is handling it and has it been guilty of appeasing russia? do you think? well, i think it for look at the last 25 years of, of, lot of mental control because next month to month, exactly 25 years since this man came to power in russia. what we'll see a, a sad history of appeasement of letting me approve them by western needed on both sides of the atlantic. because the direction of mr. food was rule was very clear

from the very beginning as we remember. well, one of the 1st acts of light and improving in office was to reinstate the style, the nearest soviet national end. as the national and some of the, a consideration of russia is a country of symbols. and if you were to choose a symbol to signal the direction of your own, he could not have chosen a more potent one. and it wasn't. it wasn't long before the symbols were followed by actions and a lot of air pollutants regime began to move against independent media against political opponents, against the independence of the condition, judiciary of parliament, the institution of elections, and so on and very quickly transformed russia from the imperfect democracy, we had back end of boris yeltsin in 1990 for the perfect dictatorship that it is today. but all this, while we saw western leaders on both sides of the atlantic shape vitamin building. chand, invite him for an international summit. roll out a roll out your red carpet, you know, bike all the gas from him. look into his eyes and she is so bush reset, and buckles, and so on and so forth. if you're in, raleigh, go about from,

i'm sorry to withdraw from the issue. what was the appeasement of dictators leads to we know this from the history of the 1950s. and we noticed also from the history of the last 25 years of lot of medical. if you're right about appeasement, does the west look like an easy target? as far as booting is concerned? especially where ukraine is concerned. it has to be remember that, you know, in, in a democratic system, compromised is a good notion, right? because you know, the democratic politics is based on compromise on checks and balances on finding common ground. but for a dictator, for an aggressive, for a bully, like dividing that food, compromise from the other side is not an invitation to reciprocate. it's an invitation to grab more, to be more aggressive, to attract someone else. and this is exactly what lot of applicant's been doing, because you know what, you're going away with attacking georgia. you're going away with an extreme crimea . you're going away with testing several dozens of russia. now i mentioned the civilian population in syria in 2015. and in february 2022, he thought, okay,

if i've gotten away with all of that before, i'm going to get away with this one too. and i think he was actually surprised by the united front of the west find any put up in support of the southern independence of ukraine as they say better late than never. but it's really important that the west western governments do not fall back into the habit of appeasing platinum. it wouldn't, because we do hear such voices in recent times, coming from western capital. how far beyond ukraine do you imagine that boots exemptions expend? looks automatically because sole goal is to continue staying in pallets or whatever means necessary. he is leaving power for a quarter of a century. he does not have any intention of leaving. it doesn't mean he won't leave about an expansion of these borders expansion if he's bored, us in russia, we know from the long history of russia that internal refreshing and external aggression always go hand in hand. and after the lot of my food and was done was destroying the organization in russia. and i mean, injured in destroying physically, you know,

the 2 leading political opponents of letting me prudent boris and himself, and unexplained divinely when that on his direct orders after he was done was suppressing, uh, you know, any alternative view points, any opposition inside the country. he moved outside his borders and so as long as the smiles remains, as long as this man remains in power, as long as this aggressive all sorts here and regime remains in the kremlin, russia will continue to be a threat both to excel and people to our own citizens and to a neighboring country. the only strategic solution to this is to have this regime in the crumb and replace by a legitimate, the elect, a democratic government that will respect the rights and freedoms of our own people . and will respect the international rules of civilized behavior on the world stage . this is the only way to ensure lasting peace, stability, and security. on the european confidence, a democratic rush, i want to, i want to talk about that and a possible past way to that later on. but i wonder if in your view,

put in is in fact, winning the war the moment i us because here's a man indicted for war crimes by the international criminal court. and you have the heads of some $25.00 countries representing more than 40 percent of the world's population. we're quite happy to ton of recently. and so to for the so called brick summit to smile and shake his hand. are you disappointed by that? and by the complete lack of condemnation, from those leaders for what he's been doing in ukraine. well, frankly, it was shameful to see those photographs from cars on and on to 100 gutierrez, this extra term of the united nations. you know, shaking. glad i'm able to send them literally boeing to them, and i believe that's what the photo look like. you, you remember the one i'm talking about? and also recently in the last 3 months or so, a lot of my food and made an official visit to mongolia, which is actually a signatory state to the ro statute and is a legally obligated to follow through with the i c. c warrant. but it didn't, it rolled out a red carpet for vitamin food and invited him and, you know,

the president can go there. sure, cassandra, for the cameras and so forth. by the way, i think they should be international consequences from a guardian this, because different countries flagrantly violates its clear legal obligations as it did and disregard. it has to be some consequences for them. this is not acceptable . when it comes to western sanctions on russia, you're not happy are you because putting is still finding a way around many of them. but also because some are affecting ordinary russians rather than the regime. why is that so bad on the russians likely to oppose the war if they're affected in a non aggressive non military mama? well then these last, so models that i've been out of prison. i've been sort of catching up on 2 and a half years worth of information exactly when i been, frankly shocked by the way the sanctions mechanisms operate and in many western countries on the one that i was shocked by how many glaring coals they still are in the sections mechanism, you know, for example, it was an absolutely astonishing fat that all right, and a recent report on that and i love them thing thing the,

to start you percent of all the arguments and all the military technology is used by pollutants army and ukraine. still come from western a western allied sources. this is unacceptable. we're almost 3 years into this full is given the age of the largest mit if you conflict in europe since the end of the 2nd world war. and we still see that well, and essentially western countries are aging in a bank and 2 things war efforts and ukraine. this is the only the only way i can pull this. i was shocked to see the so many people from lucas close circle are still free able to travel around western countries and still enjoying, you know, the beneficial privileges of, of traveling around countries in europe and union. for example. again, this is competing unacceptable. almost 3 years into the full scale invasion of ukraine. and of course, we have seen many other ways that the food machine has been able to 2nd vend these international sections. particular with the so called shadow fleet, which he's using to continue setting his energy resources all over the world. so what about your objection to the sanctions on people on right?

in the big 10 russian piece that i was just coming to the only other side of the issue, i see that some countries, not all i have to stress, is this. but some countries in your opinion of chosen to impose these complete blanket bands on everybody who happens to have a russian passport. you know, people are banned from coming in from crossing the borders from receiving visas from driving was russian number place. and so, and festival this is completely unacceptable in the 21st century to discriminate against them and try a nation simply based on citizenship based on nationalities. in fact, this is expressly prohibited biological 14 of the european convention of human life . but this also plays during directly into the hands of google's propaganda machine because, you know, it makes it so easy for the kremlin to say, oh, look, these west and as the old rooster folks, as the kremlin propagandist like to say, they hate everybody who's russian and this is just an easy way the pollutants propaganda can have a feel. they will this them to me. the sanctions mechanisms have to be re calibrated in

a way where they actually pick what needs to be hit. they actually target to put more machine. they actually target the proof more economy and make it more difficult. and ideally impossible. couple of things are going to continue this one regression in ukraine. but on the other hand, it is unacceptable. one sanctions in a blanket white target, anybody who happens to have a russian passport the ukrainians was so happy with what you said. one of the presidential adviser miss, i look for the ex said southern people calling themselves russian opposition. cooling, cofer, easing sanctions promptly to ensure water resources don't run out. the true russian opposition, activity with weapons in hand helps repel pollutants holds in don't bus and the khaki of regions. he was referring to russian volunteer units. fighting on ukraine side has he got a point as well. in fact, well, you just go to directly contradicts what i've just said. you know, he's calling for easing sanctions. we are calling for recalibrating sanctions to make sure, let me repeat this again. the, the sanctions actually do target poses one machine and purpose war economy and make

it more difficult or invest impossible for him to continue his war of aggression in ukraine. but yes, on the other hand, the sanction should not hit independent journalist from russia. human rights activists from russia, independence lloyd, from russia for us. you are you off and helping ukrainian feel double use in russian pretzels, because you're absolutely makes no sense that these people should be targeted solely be hurt because they hold a russian passport. this is what we're saying is some people choose to sort of pervert and twist around what we're saying that remain on that conference. you've said that it's put in must not be allowed to win. what if he does? well, of course, in the most important sense, but it was already lost. the war and ukraine, somebody saying he's already one. know he is already lost because let's not forget his original aims. in february 2022, it was taken care of in 5 days. it was destroyed in ukraine as

a solver and independent country that was able to make its own decisions and phone and domestic policy. i don't both of those kinds very clearly flattery. appleton has utterly failed. 3 holds 90 percent of the country. it's 20 percent of the country. now. the goal was 100 percent. the goal was the destruction of ukraine as a sovereign independence day. of course, what you're saying, that's exactly how the food and propaganda machine will try to present it. but he must not be allowed to get away with this because the only way to judge the outcome is to compare it with the original goals. it didn't take you ever in 5 days. it did not destroy your training. does it solve or an independent country? and it's very clear that he will not be able to, because of a, you know, very strong, very resilient resistance by the training people over these last, almost 3 years, really well over these last 10 years. really? because let's not forget to actually put in begun his war and ukraine, indians the spring of 2014. and whichever way,

the book and propaganda machine will try to twist this in the most important sense . he has already failed, but i agree with your point that whatever the final settlement looks like. now there's a lot of talk about the new american administration. we moved to a sort of a towards cheating some sort of a settlement the next year. and you're freezing the freezing the conflict on counting blind spot speed as long as you're heading. but none of us knows how exactly this will look. but there's a lot of drunken out in the media, and it's very, very important that the brutal regime is not allowed to present itself as, as coming out triumphant from this war. because we know that this would only encourage an aggressor to strike again. let's talk if we may about you personally. sentence last year to an almost unbelievable $25.00. you had jail to him on trees and judges in particular, criticizing the war and ukraine. you said at the time that after 2 decades in russian politics with all you'd seen an experience, nothing could surprise you. but this did,

didn't that this 25 year sentence really surprised you? why, when you'd seen the brutality of the regime close up a well highly historical education and one when i was arrested back in the spring of 2022 after the full scale over again. i was expecting my experience to be somewhat similar to the experience of the dissidents of the 19 sixties and 19 seventies and 19 eighties and the soviet union. but actually the experience that i went through was much closer to stollins times in the sense that my trial was held completed behind closed doors. in the sense that the defense was not even formally allowed to get out to present evidence, to add any documents. and this was a complete sham, even by the standards of, you know, the post style in period less than that, any version of the said the union. and of course, as, as, as you've mentioned, to him the samples itself and the last time political prisoners in, in our country about 25 year sentence as well as joseph started. this sent was this

long as not being handed down to a place where the president, since darling's best in 1953. and this was of course, the message from the ground energy and it wasn't only for my only criticism of the war, any crane. it was only for my public criticism of a political oppression. political assassinations in russia wasn't only from my public criticism. fully illegality of pollutants approaching the constitutional term limits to stay in power essentially forever. those were the official charges in my case, but we added sort of unofficial charge, was my involvement over many years. even advocacy, fully magnetic schools, around the world, laws that impose targeted personal sanctions on human rights abuses from hooton's close circle. it was because the mind goal within them, like netscape laws that i've been twice boys in by, in f as b that scored in 20152017. and a judge who had the blue my 25 year son was last year was the same judge. so he gave her the pretty girl who had jailed. so we're getting back next week back in 2008. and who was one of the 1st people sanctioned, under the magnet sky act in the united states that help us. and so this was very

clear, very demonstrative from the cramming. and it shows, by the way, what they're really afraid of, they really are afraid of western countries imposing these to target at personal sanctions and people over and got used to speaking and russia and then stashing away and spending a lot money in the west. and those types of sanctions should absolutely be strengthened, expanded and made more effective. you were kept in solitary confinement day of today. what was the worst moments for you? look at. it's like an end does groundhog day, you know, it's, it's, it's meaningless. every day is the same. um i was sitting in a small cell, a couple of like cell 2 by 3 meters full walls, a small window onto the ceiling with metal bars. your bunk bed gets attached to the wall at 5 o'clock in the morning and then you can take it down again until the lights out at 9 pm. so the whole day essentially you can just walk around in a small circle inside the cell, sort of this really uncomfortable stool that sticks out of the wall. kinda when you sit on that for a long. if you have no one to speak to,

you have nothing to do. you have no way to go failing. you allow you to write. so they only give you a pen and paper to rifle 19 minutes a day. that's all and they take it away again. and where do you want to go, where do you go to your mind under those conditions? well, and worst of all, they did not allow me to communicate with my family. it was not allowed any phone calls with my wife and my children, and this is a tradition that goes back to start in style as well. but they seats are punished, not just a political opponent, but the family to. and so what really helped or survive in that situation that will really help to stay same with how the honest with you is. oh, 1st of all, my christian faith because you know, i know that at the end of the day everything will be decided on that not by some people who are saying that they rule everything. secondly, my education and my background is like a store and communicating useful, i must say, because look, we've had all this in russia before, you know, you worked in the soviet union as a journalist. we've had all this in russian history before. and we know how it ends and, you know, we know that it will end because nothing is forever. but certainly what really

helped you know, many years ago i was making a documentary film about so he had to sit and see what's called a shows freedom. most of the blame to be for that feeling was for the mirror because of the legendary decision. also have to spend many, many years and associate gulard. and i asked him what to help him survive in those conditions. what helped him survive and prisoners and, and labor counsel, psychiatric hospital, which he was confined to as well. and he has a very simply, i knew that i was right. at the time i saw this is just a lie sounding phrase. and you know, i put it in and so of course, because it sounded good. but having gone for the experience myself, i know just signed for them. that is, i knew that i was right. i knew that the real criminals are those people in the crime and who have started the war in ukraine. now, those of us for word, for some, because we had a poster. and was, you know that your right. the fear in the doubt just going when you were in court, you had created with russians not to give up protesting and demonstrating off to

the death of alexa and the found me and you ask them to continue what your quote i'll work with, even greater strength so the russians, you said, become a normal free european country and you added, i have absolutely no doubt. this will happen. where does that certainty come from? from being historian, because they know that at the end of the day, you know, the art of history, as they say, may not bend as fast as we'd like. but it does bent towards live, which in the future does not belong to our kick. belligerent, repressive one. man, also, or charing dictatorship, cited dictatorships automatically within the future belongs to democracy. and there's absolutely no reason why the russian people should not be able to live in a develop democratic system. because like the rest of europe and countries do, i don't look as you look at the map of europe's 83540 years ago. you know, when you, when you were working in, in moscow by historical standards, this is nothing. this is like yesterday morning we will see that off of the coffees on the european continent while living under various forms of authoritarian addict

tutorial regimes. if we look at the map of europe today, there are only 2 dictatorship flat that's pluto's russian location because, well, it was so the directions very clear and i democracy is back sliding democracy according to freedom. mouse has been back sliding for 18 years. and i want to know what you think by what pos rusher gets from brutal dictatorship to free european country. and what might that, jody cost a look. one thing we definitely know from russian history is that fundamental political change happens suddenly quickly at this level of a thing that, you know, both as are especially with the beginning of the 20th century. and the communist regime, at the end of the 20th century, went down in 3 days. this is literally how it happened. this is how it's going to happen the next time. none of us knows exactly when how in what circumstances the food emerging move fault. but it will, and we have to be ready for it because one of the biggest problems you might view was the 19 ninety's was that people were not prepared for such a swift and southern collapse of the soviet regime because it seems to be stable

and secure and it seemed to be forever and then suddenly it was gone. and so many mistakes were made because of that unpreparedness. and we cannot afford to repeat those mistakes the next time because as i think everybody can see very clearly now what happens in russia affects everyone. and the only way to ensure long term stability, security, and peace on the european continent. the only way you're up can ever become truly whole free and a piece is with a democratic russia. and so it must all be preparing for that day after poking to make sure we did not repeat the mistakes that were made in the 1990 to make sure that next time we really do get it right. you say you were so be preparing. we must all be preparing, but to do what you did is many steps to fall for the vast majority of people. it's a journey to a dock place. you knew where you were taking that journey. and ultimately you,

you were taking your family with them because those those close to your relatives, all those who were going to suffer as a result of you. busy incarceration, that's a price that's way too high for most people to pay. isn't there? yeah, absolutely. and that's true of any society in any country, you will not find many people who do prefer to go to prison for just speaking out, you know, about what they believe and then that is normal. by the way, i mean otherwise to manage it will not survive, but that's not what i'm talking about. i'm not talking about people having to speak out and go to prison. this regime will collapse. this is a historical and eligibility. and when i say that we must be ready. what i mean is that we have to have a roadmap for the day after putting in russia domestically to my mind, this means 1st and foremost, that we'll have to have a process of public reckoning, a public reflection of all the primes that are being committed by the pollutant machine, well 1st of all, crimes that commuting and great but also the many crimes that commissioning against and have committed against our own people. in russia. these explanation of bodies

sense of these explanation of alexander vonnie, the persecution of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of political prisoners in russia. they will have a regular number of political presumes in russia of the model times more than 1300 according to human rights groups. there will have to be accountability for this because for evil to never return again, it has to be public, he reflected on and probably kicking them. we have seen this in many countries, that sort of what overcoming this trauma fast auto during world, south africa after pop type, latin american states, after ministry dictatorships, central and eastern europe off the call is one. so, and we'll never really have that process in russia in the ninety's, or we'll have to have it after food in an international aspect of this preparedness to me means that the west needs to stand ready to provide critical assistance to that post, to the russia, to make sure that that transition to democracy successful next time. but also just with the, we integrate that future post boot and democratic brushing back into the civilized

world, back into your back into what we call the international rules based on that. because the only way you or can be peaceful, stay below secure and democratic is where they democratic rational gonna happen any other way. and you don't see this is very difficult to take root in a world where democracy as i said before, is back sliding. where the rules based order is seem to be inadequate for keeping rules or keeping order. the trend is not in that direction. is it? well, history always lows as i say, 2 steps forward, one step back. just steps forward one step back. so yes, there will be backsliding, there will be regression is there will be things that we should be concerned about him. we shouldn't be concerned about that. but in the end of the day, the direction again is undeniable. in the direction is almost jacob and the aucker 5th street does the band towards liberty, even though it may not do so as fast as we don't like very briefly and about 15 seconds because we're running out of time for you going back to russia is a matter,

i think you said of when not, if i'm the under what circumstances would you go back wants to food and brushing is going on. we will have a minus task ahead of us because these people, this regime will leave our country and ruins what we need to rebuild the economy, what we need to rebuild the institutions of democracy. we're going to rebuild the international reputation of our country to make sure that russia can return to the civil as well as normal democratic european countries. and this is what i intend to do. i can dedicate my life in my work too, and i have no doubt that they will come by the america will be the great pleasure avenue and governing. so thank you very much. indeed, it was great you in your program. thank you so much. the,

the, the from palm trees to how to space the international space industry or run for them money. they're producing usable rockets and 1000. the coffee for the students. the made in germany. in 30 minutes on d. w. the

big piece needing a new clue. it means happy when i was 8 years old, i was already dreaming of a future as a senior or something i wanted to become a funeral of my family. which is dream was within reach. she'd become a star in turkey overnight. then a man took everything from with the help of his family and music. she rebuilt her life. and then his sister also became a family scholar by hatred. i'm mad as an adult is i in will to would for change and also so i will sing my song say, well, this injustice will not go unpunished. maybe my voice will be heard back to bring to our seeking justice for the victims of sam assigned this week on

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old we can be the generation, the ends that feel good. malaria must die. so millions can live this is the, the, the news coming to live from berlin, liberal incense, its troops, south to support the ceasefire between israel and has pull up. soldiers from the lebanese army move to the is rarely border in thousands of civilians returned to their homes. as the troops takes whole also it coming up, australia moves to band kids from using social media platforms, like take talk snapshots and instagram. we'll find out how the legislation is supposed to work the