would you describe via including best products from corte indians to drama? keep close that even local press vehicles we've got a response this to and unexpected sides of the there's plenty of evidence of questioning. the government in russia is more dangerous of its being the living memory. my guess this week was sentenced to 25 years in jail for criticizing the war and ukraine for it was released this year and the largest east, west prison swap since the cold war. he's that he may have come with us and he's lost none of his idealism for optimism about the future. despite all evidence to the country, this british russian national insistence one day russia will become a multi free european country. and the future does not belong to a r k for leisure and repressive one manual authoritarian dictation cited

dictatorship assignment rules in the future of the last year of democracy and is absolutely no reason why the russian people should not be able to live in a develop democratic system, just like the rest of york in countries where on the says that's come from the cut on was welcome to come pick tone. thank you so much for having me. i want to spend a good deal of this interview talking about your personal experiences and what you learned from them about your country and indeed about yourself. but we're talking in what's being widely described as a period of maximum danger in east west relations. how do you think the west is handling it and has it been guilty of appeasing russia? do you think? well, i think it for look at the last 25 years of, of, lot of mental control, because next month i'll walk exactly 25 years since this man came to power in russia. what we'll see uh, a sad history of appeasement. vladimir approved from bike the western needs on both

sides of the atlantic because the direction of mr. pollutants rule was very clear from the very beginning. uh, as we remember. well, one of the 1st acts of learning, improving in office, was to reinstate the style, the nearest sylvia national end. as a national anthem of the russian federation of russia is the country of symbols. and if you were to choose a symbol to signal the direction of you really could not have chosen a more potent one. and it wasn't, it wasn't long before the symbols will follow by actions and vladimir pollutants. regime began to move against independent media against political opponents. against the independence of the condition of judiciary of parliament, the institution of elections, and so on and very quickly transformed russia from the inc. perfect democracy. we had back end of boris yeltsin in 1990 for the perfect dictatorship that it is today . but all this, while we saw western leaders on both sides of the atlantic shape vitamin pollutants, hand invite him for international summit, real out of the roll out the red carpet, you know, bike all the gas from him. look into his eyes and she is so bush reset,

and bottles and so on and so forth. if you're in right. oh, about from, i'm sorry to israel from history. what it won't be a piece of dictators leads to we know this from the history of the 19 thirty's. and we noticed also from the history of the last 25 years of writing. if you write about appeasement, does the west look like an easy target? as far as putting is concerned, especially where you credit is concerned. it has to be, remember that, you know, in, in a democratic system, compromise is a good notion, right? because you know, democratic politics is based on compromise on checks and balances on finding common ground, but for dictate of, for an aggressive for a bully. like dividing that food, compromise from the other side is not an invitation to reciprocate. it's an invitation to grab more, to be more aggressive, to attack someone else. and this is exactly what lot of applicant's been doing, because you know what? you're going away with attacking georgette. you're going away with an extreme crime . yes. you got away with testing several dozens of russian arguments on the civilian population in syria in 2015 and in february 2022, he thought okay,

if i've gotten away with all of that before, i'm going to get away with this one too. and i think he was actually surprised by the united front of the west, fine. and they put up in support of the solver and independence of ukraine as they say better late than that. but, but it's really important that the west western governments do not fall back into the habit of appeasing. glad, and it wouldn't, because we do hear such voices in recent times, coming from western capital. how far beyond ukraine do you imagine that put in some patients extend? let them out because sole goal is to continue staying and pallets or whatever means necessary. he has been in power for a quarter of a century. he does not have any intention of leaving. it doesn't mean he won't leave. i'm probably expansion of these borders, expansion of his borders in russia. we know from the long history of russia that internal refreshing and external aggression always go hand in hand. and after flooding my food and was done was destroying the organization in russia. and i need

intruding destroying physically, you know, the 2 leading political opponents of lot important, boris and himself, and unexplained divinely when that on his direct orders after he was done was suppressing, uh, you know, any alternative view points, any opposition inside the country? he moved outside his borders and so as long as this miles remains, as long as it's minor, amazing power, as long as this aggressive all sorts here and regime remains in the kremlin, russia will continue to be a threat both to its own people to our own citizens and to a neighboring country. the only strategic solution to this is to have this regime in the crime and replace by a legitimate, the elect, a democratic government that will respect the rights and freedoms of our own people . and will respect the international rules of civilized behavior on the world stage . this is the only way to ensure lasting peace, stability, and security on the european continent, a democratic rush, i want to, i want to talk about that and a possible past way to that later on. but i wonder if in your view putting is in

fact winning the more the moment ios, because here's a man indicted for war crimes by the international criminal court. and you have the heads of some $25.00 countries representing more than 40 percent of the world's population. we're quite happy to turn up recently and so cheap for the so called brick summit to smile and shake his hand. are you disappointed by that? and by the complete lack of condemnation, from those leaders for what he's been doing in ukraine. well, frankly, it was shameful to see those photographs from cars on and on to and it gutierrez, this extra term of united nations. you know, shaking. glad i'm able to send them literally boeing to them, and i believe that's what the photo looked like. you remember the one i'm talking about and also recently in the last 3 months or so, lot of my food and made an official visit to go there, which is actually a signatory state to the ro statute and is a legally obligated to follow through with the i c c warren,

but it didn't. it rolled out a red carpet for vitamin boat and that invited him in, you know, the president, i'm going to assure cassandra, for the cameras and so forth. by the way, i think they should be international consequences from a guardian this, because different countries flagrantly violates its clear legal obligations as it did in this regard. it has to be some consequences for that. this is not acceptable, but comes to western sanctions on russia. you're not happy, are you because booting is still finding a way around many of them, but also because some are affecting ordinary russians rather than the regime. why is that so bad on the russians likely to oppose the war if they're affected in a non aggressive non military mama as well then these last 4 months that i've been out of prison, i've been sort of catching up on 2 and a half years worth of information vacuum, and i've been, frankly shocked by the way, the sanctions mechanisms operate in many western countries. on the one hand, i was shocked by how many glaring coals they still are in the sections mechanism. you know, for example, it was an absolutely astonishing fat that all right, and

a recent report on that and they loved them. same thing, the to 30 percent of all the arguments and all the ministry technology is used by clicking strongly and ukraine still come from western or western allied sources. this is unacceptable. we're almost 3 years into this full scale invasion, the largest minute conflict in europe since the end of the 2nd world war. and we still see that while and essentially western countries are aging and a bed and 2 things war efforts and ukraine. this is the only the only way i can pull this. i was shocked to see the so many people from lucas close circle. i still free able to travel around western countries and i still enjoyed, you know, the beneficial privileges of, of traveling around countries in european union. for example. again, this is completely unacceptable, almost 3 years into the full scale invasion of ukraine. and of course, we have seen many other ways that the food machine has been able to suck in van these international sections, particular with the so called shuttle fleet, which he's using to continue setting his energy resources all over the world. how.

what are the objection to the sanctions on people on right, and they type russian people that i was just coming to the only other side of the issue. i see that some countries, not all i have to stress, is this, but some countries in your opinion, i've chosen to impose these complete blanket bands on everybody who happens to have a russian passport. you know, people are banned from coming in from crossing the borders from receiving visas from driving was russian number place and so, and festival this is completely unacceptable in the 21st century to discriminate against didn't try a nation simply based on citizenship based on nationality. in fact, this is expressly prohibited biological 14 of the european convention of human life . but this also plays during directly into the hands of google's propaganda machine . because, you know, it makes it so easy for the kremlin to say, oh look, these west and as the old rooster folks as the crumb and propagandist like to say, they hate everybody who's russian. and this is just an easy wait. the poor goose propaganda can have a field a will this, and to me,

the sanctions mechanisms have to be re calibrated in a way where they actually pick what needs to be hit. they actually target the put more machine, they actually target the proof more economy and make it more difficult. and ideally impossible, pollutants are going to continue this one regression in ukraine. but on the other hand, it is unacceptable. when sanctions in a blanket way target, anybody who happens to have a russian passport the ukrainians was so happy with what you said, one of the uh, presidential adviser beside the exit southern people calling themselves russian opposition. cooling, cofer, easing sanctions promptly to ensure, well, resources don't run out. the true russian opposition, activity with weapons in hand, helps repel pollutants holds in don't bus and the khaki of regions. he was referring to russian volunteer units. fighting on ukraine's side has he got a point as well. in fact, what you just go to directly contradicts what i've just said, you know, he's quoting for easing sanctions. we are calling for recalibrating sanctions to

make sure, let me repeat this again. the, the sanctions actually do target pollutants will machine and tutors war economy and make it more difficult or at best, impossible for him to continue his war of aggression in ukraine. but yes, on the other hand, the sanction should not hit independent journalist from russia. human rights activists from russia, independent lawyers from russia for actually where you open to helping ukrainian fuel w's in russian preserves because it absolutely makes no sense that these people should be targeted solely be hurt because the whole or russian possible. this is what we're saying is some people choose to sort of pervert and twist around what we're saying that that remains on that conference. you've said the booth and must not be allowed to win. what if he does? well of course, in the most important sense, because already lost the warranty train. somebody say he's already one. know he is already lost because let's not forget his original names. in february 2022,

it was taken care of in 5 days, it was destroying ukraine. as a sovereign independent country that was able to make its own decisions in front of domestic policy. i don't both of those kinds very clearly. blood mapleton has actually failed, but he holds the percent of the country. it's 20 percent of the country. now. the goal was 100 percent. the goal was the destruction of ukraine as a southern independence day. of course, what you're saying, that's exactly how the food and propaganda machine will try to present it. but he must not be allowed to get away with this because the only way to judge the outcome is to compare it with the original goals. it didn't take you ever in 5 days. it did not destroy your trainers, this already independent country. and it's very clear that he will not be able to because of a, you know, very strong, very resilient resistance by the training people over these last, almost 3 years really well over these last 10 years. really because let's not forget the actually pollutant begun his war and ukraine and in the spring of 2014

and whichever way the book and propaganda machine will try to twist this in the most important sense. he has already failed, but i agree with your point to whatever the final settlement looks like. now there's a lot of talk about the new american administration. we moved to a sort of a towards changing some sort of a settlement the next year. and you're freezing the freezing the conflict on counting blind spot speed as long as your husband. but none of us knows how exactly this will look. but there's a lot of drunken out in the media, and it's very, very important that the brutal regime is not allowed to present itself as, as coming out triumphant from this war. because we know that this would only encourage an aggressor to strike again. let's talk if we may about you personally. sentence last year to an almost unbelievable $25.00. you had jail to him on cheese and judges in particular, criticizing the war and ukraine. you said at the time that after 2 decades in russian politics with all you'd seen and experience,

nothing could surprise you. but this did, didn't that this 25 year sentence really surprised you? why when you'd seen the brutality of the regime close up? well, i like historical education and one when i was arrested back in the spring of 2022 . after the full scale of what, again, i was expecting my experience to be somewhat similar to the experience of the dissidents of the 19 sixties and 19 seventies and 19 eighties on the soviet union. but actually the experience that i went through was much closer to style in science, in a sense of my trial was held completed behind closed doors. in the sense that the defense was not even formally allowed to get all to present evidence to add any documents. and this was the company, cham, even by the standards of, you know, the co starting period, let's say on the lenient version of the soviet union. and of course, as, as, as you've mentioned, to him the samples itself and the last time political prisoners. and you're not

comfortable 25, your sentences as well as joseph started this samples as long as not being handed down to replace group or isn't it since darling's best in 1953. and this was, of course, the message from the, from the nursing i'm. it wasn't only for my, from the criticism of the war in ukraine. it wasn't only for my public criticism of a political repression. political assassinations in russia wasn't only from my public criticism, fully illegality of pollutants approaching the constitutional term limits to stay in power essentially forever. those are the official charges in my case, but we added sort of unofficial charge, was my involvement over many years. even advocacy, fully netscape laws around the world, but laws that impose targeted personal sanctions on human rights abuses from hooton's close circle. it was because the mind go over the magnet skills that i've been twice, boys in by, in f as b that scored in 20152017. and a judge who handed blue my 25. yes. and this last year was the same judge. so i gave her that for gore who had jailed so again, like netscape, back in 2008. and who was one of the 1st people sanctioned,

under the magnet sky act in the united states. but i help the bus. and so this was very clear, very demonstrative from the crime and, and it shows, by the way, what they're really afraid of. they really are afraid of western countries imposing these to target at personal sanctions. and people overall got used to feeding and russia and then stashing away and spending a lot money in the west. and those types of sanctions should absolutely be strengthened, expanded and made more effective. you were kept in solitary confinement day of today. what was the worst moments for you? well look it's, it's like an end does groundhog day, you know, it's, it's, it's meaningless. every day is the same. um i was sitting in a small cell, a couple of like cell 2 by 3 meters full walls, a small window onto the ceiling with metal bars. your bunk bed gets attached to the wall at 5 o'clock in the morning and then you can take it down again until the lights out at 9 pm. so the whole day essentially you can just walk around in a small circle inside the cell,

sort of this really uncomfortable stool that sticks out of the wall. kinda let you sit on that for long. um you have no one to speak to. you have nothing to do, you have no way to go. failing your allowed you to write. so they only give you a pen and paper to rifle 19 minutes a day that solomon taken away again. and where do you go? where do you go in your mind under those conditions? well, and worst of all, they did not allow me to communicate with my family. i was not allowed any phone calls with my wife and my children, and this is a tradition that goes back to start in style as well. but they seats are punished, not just a political opponent, but the family to. and so what really helped a survive in that situation that will really help to stay same with how the honest with you is. oh, 1st of all, my christian faith because you know, i know that at the end of the day everything will be decided on that not by some people who are thing that they rule everything. secondly, my education and my background is like a store and communicating useful, i must say, because look, we've had all this in russia before, you know, you worked in the soviet union as a journalist. we've had all this in russian history before. and we know how it is,

and you know, we know that it will end because nothing is forever. but certainly, what really helped you know, many years ago i was making a documentary film about so he had to sit and see what's called a shows freedom. one of the blades to be for that feeling was for the mirror because of the legendary does it and also spend many, many years and associate gulard. and i asked him what to help him suffice in those conditions. what, how can survive and prisoners and, and delay because since i got your hospitals with which he was confined to as well . and he has a very simply, i knew that i was right. and at the time i saw this is just a nice sounding phrase, and you know, i put it in a cell of course because it sounded good. but having gone for the experience myself, i know just time for them that is, i knew that i was right. i knew that the real criminals are those people in the crime and who have started the war in ukraine. now those of us for word version because we had a poster and was, you know that your right, the fear in the doubt just going when you were in court,

you had created with russians not to give up protesting and demonstrating after the death of alexa and the found me and you ask them to continue what you quote, i work with even greater strength. so the russians you said, become a normal free european country and you added, i have absolutely no doubt. this will happen. where does that certainty come from? from being just storing because they know that at the end of the day, you know, the august history is they say may not bend as fast as we'd like, but it does bent towards limit you in the future, does not belong to our kick belligerent, repressive one. man, also, or charing dictatorship sided, the dictatorship of letting me put in the future belongs to democracy. and there's absolutely no reason why the russian people should not be able to live in a develop democratic system. because like the rest of europe and countries do, i don't look at you look at the map of europe, say 3540 years ago. you know, when you, when you were working in, in moscow by historical standards, this is nothing. this is like yesterday morning we will see that off of the

countries on the european continent while living under various forms of authoritarian addict tutorial regimes. if a look at the map of europe today, there are only 2 dictatorships, laptops, boot, those russian location because, well, it was so the directions very clear and i democracy is back sliding democracy according to freedom. mouse has been back sliding for 18 years. and i want to know what you think by what pos rusher gets from brutal dictatorship to free european country. and what might that, jody cost a look. one thing we definitely, you know, from russian history is that fundamental political change happens suddenly quickly . a disciple of a thing, you know, both as far as versioning or the beginning of the 20th century. and the communist regime at the end of the 20th century, went down in 3 days. this is literally how it happened. this is how it's going to happen. the next time, none of us knows exactly when, how in what circumstances the food emerging move fault, but it will. and we have to be ready for it because one of the biggest problems you might view was the 19 ninety's was that people were not prepared for such

a swift and southern collapse of the soviet regime because it seems to be stable and secure. and it seemed to be forever and then suddenly it was gone. and so many mistakes were made because of that unpreparedness. and we cannot afford to repeat those mistakes the next time because as i think everybody can see very clearly now what happens in russia affects everyone. and the only way to ensure long term stability, security, and peace on the european continent. the only way your up can ever become truly whole free and a piece is with a democratic russian. and so it must all be preparing for that day after program to ensure we did not repeat the mistakes that were made in the 1990 to make sure that the next time we really do get it right. you say you must all be preparing. we must all be preparing, but to do what you did is many steps to fall for the vast majority of people. it's a journey to

a dock place. you knew where you were taking that journey. and ultimately you, you were taking your family with them because those those close to your relatives, all those who were going to suffer as a result of your incarceration. that's a price that's way too high for most people to pay. isn't there? yeah, absolutely. and that's true. of any society in any country, you will not find many people who do prefer to go to prison for just speaking out, you know about what they believe and then that is normal. by the way. i mean, otherwise to manage it will not survive, but that's not what i'm talking about. i'm not talking about people having to speak out and go to prison. this regime will collapse. this is a historical and eligibility. and when i say that we must be ready. what i mean is that we have to have a roadmap for the day after putting in russia domestically to my mind. this means 1st and foremost, that will have to have a process of public reckoning, a public reflection of all the crimes that are being committed by the pollutant regime, of course of all crimes that commuting and the great. but also the many crimes that

can leading against and have committed against our own people in russia. these estimation of bodies sense of these estimation of alexander binding the persecution of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of political prisoners in russia. they will have a regular number of political persons in russia for the more than guy is more than 1300 according to human rights groups. that will have to be accountability for this because for evil to never return again, it has to be public. you reflected on public, you condemn. we have seen this in many countries, that sort of what overcoming this trauma fast auto during world, south africa after pa, type, latin american states after ministry dictatorship, central and eastern europe off to companies one. so, and we'll never really have that process in russia in the ninety's. well, we'll have to have it after food and an international aspect of this preparedness to me means that the west needs to stand ready to provide critical assistance to that post, to the russia, to make sure that that transition to democracy successful next time. but also just with the,

we integrate that future post boot and democratic brushing back into the civilized world, back into your back into what we call the international rules based on that. because the only way europe can be peaceful, stay below secure and democratic is where they democratic rational gonna happen any other way. and you don't see that this is very difficult to take root in a world where democracy as i said before, is backsliding, where the rules based order is seem to be inadequate for keeping rules or keeping order. the trend is not in that direction. is it? well, history always lows as i say, 2 steps forward, one step back, just step, sold on spend back. so yes, there will be backsliding that will be regresses. there will be things that we should be concerned about and we shouldn't be concerned about that. but at the end of the day, the direction again is undeniable, and the direction is always stake above and the ok or 5th street does a band towards liberty, even though it may not do so as fast as we don't like very briefly and about 15

seconds because we're running out of time for you going back to russia is a matter i think you said of when not. if i'm the under what circumstances would you go back wants to food and brushing is going on. we will have a minus task ahead of us because these people, this regime will leave our country enrolling. so what we need to rebuild the economy, what we need to rebuild the institutions of democracy. we're going to rebuild the international reputation of our country to make sure that russia can return to the civil as well as normal democratic european countries. and this is what i intend to do. i can dedicate my life in my work too, and i have no doubt that they will come, but the america will be the great pleasure avenue in governing. so thank you very much. indeed. it was great you in your program. thank you so much. the,

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