really have the solutions, the future belongs to you. the 77 percent every weekend on dw, the it spell in briefing time here on thursday morning and a rooftop studio right at the house of belen. we're talking china today just hours after the white house accuse tine of hacking telecoms companies to supply out talk with us officials. and it's also in the week when they to secretary general mach router ones that to ukraine's allies must change the trajectory of the will in ukraine. i will debrief my dear colleague who's with me today. richard wilco dw is chief international editor who was on the plane with them 5 minutes to and lena babel on her trip to china and do the hon. w's type, a bureau chief in taiwan. so great to have you with me here today to talk whether

china rules the world. and um, before we get started, i just want to play in one sound bite from germany's tonsils off. salts who was asked about hybrid attacks in german parliament just 24 hours ago. let's take a listen. the visa mission was that i'm good for the. these are the main sources of the attacks that concerned our cyber security comes. as we all know from russia until they come on every now and then they come from china and that must not be denied public. and the reason i'm paying this richard is because there was a real reluctance by jove in town. so we'll have sold to actually name china and as a source of these attacks. now, just off that he said this a, we got news out of the united states, which is clear to go public, which is also an unusual step about this attack. so it can just just give us

a sense of how much this was in the background or in the foreground as you were traveling with them, these foreign minister and the bad books to china. well, i suppose, but these points to me highlight is that within the german government you have a chance to low off schultz and a foreign minister leading a bad book who have quite profoundly different views of the relationship. the gemini has with china and where gemini is should be going with that relationship and the trajectory that is likely to take. and we can get into that kind of crunchy details of that. i guess that's what we're all about today. i'm telling briefing but, but in broad strokes, well, i felt to somebody who wants to kind of study the ship with china and keep relations good and keep, you know, keep it possible for german companies to make a lot of money in china, not rock the boat too much, i know, lena, babble for her part is somebody who essentially sees

a relationship that has profound problems and that germany needs to kind of wise up because it, it's potentially falling into a trap of too much dependency on china. and those are kind of the 2 intellectual welds that those 2 inhabit. with respect to china. they have managed to find a common language with respect to china under these kind of banners that a lot of countries have gathered under, with in europe. this idea of di, risking, you know, you want to reduce the risk and the relationship to do, you know, who could argue about against would using risk, you know, but they all have very different interpretations of what that means. and yeah, you can sense that reluctance way. he said, you know, you have to admit that the chinese were also behind some cyber attacks. why should that be so difficult to admit? yeah, kelly, and i just wanna bring in zulu on that. i mean, you were observing also from taiwan and a bell bulk visiting among g, meeting him in beijing. and what do you make of the difference in how the united

states has now tackling this very sony issue of confronting china and the way in germany is seen and, and actually acted that the o. well, actually there is not much discussion here in taiwan because um, in terms of cross tre relations between china and taiwan, we all know that the key clear is china and the u. s. so sally, speaking here in taiwan, people don't fix that one visit from the german. foreign minister would change anything, right? but we do see some extra interest in discussions in china and which is like you can find that want a statement after um their box visit is not very harsh actually because we know like bare box you took a pretty tough stance on china. but then um, football, the extra as of talked to, they think that china has been taking this very put medic attitude towards

a bare box. not because um that they trying to change their a wall wheel will have an attitude, but they recognize that you know, like they don't want to make the stage become like a like of how they can reach an agreement with the barrow bach from this can take a complement, but whether they want to focus on the economic issues. so if you want to hold a press conference talking about how she hope that china can mediate this rest of ukrainian war. so be it. let's be a one woman show from china. what they want is to keep talking about this trade disputes between the 2 sides. so the approach is very different, but not much. we have a question here and how, what, well, trade is always at the center. and i do remember from reporting on aguilar macro, that the one question she was most afraid of in that sense is, well, if you're a pass to decide between the us and china, which way would it go? now the united states is just replace china as the most important trading partner.

and so durham, the is not a huge power in the region, but let's just take a listen to a which is reporting on what laid out to this trip that some background to this one . her last visit, she held a joint press conference which accounts upon and then time she's done. it turned into a slanging match. so when they traded accusations about ukraine, human rights, taiwan, and filter stuck babel. she had done by many in the west for what people straightened to print scott, china, and state media absolutely condemned. anyway, lost in that box and appeared to describe cj and p as that goes from the official complaint from the chinese farm. okay, so that was in our bad book is back in bathing. and now if anything, ever, even more reasons for disagreement, china is providing russia with more and more supports and that score against refrain. there being fresh revelations about chinese firms basing up russian kronos

soldiers from china is allied korea. a recent fighting alongside russian troops as a trade will go for electron costs. this just a sense that china and europe her and logan hits on the really big stuff. so they bought tubes about all of this with a new kinds of outlined facebook for 3 hours. but after that, that bulk had to do a press conference because by himself, chinese refused to take part. she spelled out the problem as she went in and all she knew this was probably drones from chinese factories and north korean troops. that the type of peace in the middle of europe violate a european call security interest key on the sides of so no slanging match. so this trait, but i mean, because the chinese foreign minister wasn't bad to slang back, there's no indication that china is a totally inclined to change his opinion about any of these things now that bulkheads home to an election campaign to, to, to end up with a boost you down to the office. you certainly get the impression that bad but

wouldn't be missed here in beijing. but the issues that she's been complaining about are still right the festering for whoever comes next. here what to do with that with the bab book and clearly this time the chinese would not having it to be called out. so nope, it's stage. yeah, that's right. i mean, it, i mean, some even remarks upon the point that i mean about going to so late and come as farm ernest was even bothering to go and think, you know, he was receiving or, and, you know, the germans was saying, well, you know, they received us mm hm. we talked for 3 and half hours. they gave us a delicious lunch. i can tell you, like they were clearly, they were oppressed, but i will. okay. say that there's the impressed by the lunch. and you know, there was some chatter in the drum and delegation, and i think that was a little bit of maybe navel gazing, thinking like guys we have to offer a guest by the laptop a lot. yeah. precision. maybe the lunch getting when you come to visit belin is not quite so great as you get in the state guest house in beijing. um, but you know,

in seriousness, i mean, they was saying babel wanted to go to take some pretty serious messages to the chinese. and i think, you know, ukraine is very much at the heart of, of things right now. you know, there are various reasons why europe has been going through this kind of, we think about china in recent years. jumping on this. yeah. and i, you know, after all watching, which is clear, i felt is such an interesting perspective because you know how i'm being perceived bear box and her party right, like cream party being very critical on china. so she's a portrayed and pictured in china is this implied or somehow rude politician. but in contrast, the page you want to show their kindness. so a guess from a far as to a guest, right? like we want to welcome her was such a nice reception. so we will listen to her,

but at the same time we will not echo why she said, so that's basically the attitude from a page. and if you look as how this arrows analysis they, they put it, you know, add to words. yeah, that's why i find it very interesting, like agent knows, like the best how you know this, like political difference of all these political figures in germany and how they use it as a tech fix to deal with different officials in a different way. i think that's actually right and you know, for, for the chinese, of course, for life sholtes is far preferable entirely in a bad book. and for the chinese. and the bad book is pretty easy to down, down play and just say, you know, she's from this, you know, a smaller policy within the correlation. we deal with the chancellor. you know, we have a good, better relationship with him, a good relationship with him. so, you know, if she comes and she's rude or whatever, you know, like so this will give her a nice lunch. we'll talk to. and if she goes, you know,

so i think that that's probably best today. but just kind of returning quickly to these questions that this, the centrality of ukraine, i mean there being various reasons why europeans have been having a, we think about china and not just in germany. this goes, this was 1st sort of formalize in 2019, been to european union, came out with a paper that described china as a partner in some areas, a competitor in some areas and the systemic rival in other areas. and that sort of set this tone of, you know, what china was becoming was not a sort of a democratize nice kind of like liberal societies that, that something i'd hope for earlier in the century when it started opening up to international trade through the, joining the world trade trade organization, i just mentioned that wasn't happening up with the us definition of china on the drive over. yeah, i mean so, so basically that, you know, donald trump was in the white house and so he, he'd started to push them out, child aligned on china while at the same time trying to kind of negotiate trade deals with them. but the ukraine will then through another kind of hand grenades

into the situation and not just because of you know, what proved she was doing, but because she's in pain. and his chinese government has so closely aligned itself with russia and is supporting russia economically, politically diplomatically, and they're increasing signs that there is an effective form of military support coming in through the supply chain of drones to the, to the russian military. so this was part of the message that lena bab, what was bringing was like, you know, we're watching you, we see chinese pots and even chinese drones make them get into russia. this is crossing a red line. we're going to take action on that. well, i actually, it's interesting that you raise this because i traveled, of course, with the german tom such as china. and the last time he went and clearly he is not

as outspoken on that very issue of drones, but we know and particularly dual use goods. but we know that that is the key concern that he's been taking into his toe flu season, paying on time and time again off the germans about whether they feel it's made any difference whether they actually can see come some kind of reduction of those goods of being sent from china to russia and they will get very k g because they don't want to really have kind of a real measurement of success or failure the or sold supposedly takes credits for essentially pulling russia back from the brink of making nuclear threats. the 1st time around, that's when she didn't ping actually double down and and yeah, in notes and it was unacceptable. well, what i felt was in china. yeah. and i, i was on that trip so, so it's great. we've been in all of these trips really so that was november 2022. it was just towards the tail end of the pandemic. so so, so let's flew in, we did a day trip from bell into badging. it was a bubble. anyone who interacted with us in china had to be in quarantine for weeks

beforehand. and he went that and you know what he wanted was, this was the type that kind of p to concerns that russian might use a nuclear weapon in the ukraine. bull and schultz went and then uh, siege and pinioned, managed to get some loading actually, she didn't paying essentially saying, you know, guys, we done thing nuclear war is the greatest thing, you know, which of course is pretty much we statement of the chinese position and the internationally agree position that was a new cable, k must not before. it can never be one. but it was seen as you know, something with diplomatic achievement. but, and so a lot schultz is always quite to catch himself on the back for that. absolutely. but i was just recently in the us of the selection and talking to some current and former administration officials to um and uh, when talking about about this you know, how they view. oh, ive schultz is dealing with the chinese. they said, yeah, well, i mean,

it's not bad. you know, you gotta get this out of nuclear weapons, but, but then you say, oh, by the way, please meet my delegation of c e o 's of large german companies who i happen to have brought along with me. so you're going that with a kind of a tough message about the war and don't support pizza and, and all of that. but actually kind of behind you, you've got this backdrop of money to probably do some deals. so, and as the us perspectives this completely on the mind, any sort of implicit leverage that you might have towards the chinese to say guys, stop supporting putin. if what you've got is you're kind of money people behind you kind of thinking, all right, let's try and, you know, do some better business on this is the tension that is um and shots a is on the knowing that the key caught industry has made its buffets over the past couple of years in china, and mostly so that's kept that industry pretty much going here in germany and

actually in europe. so to say, so the, but i'm really not bad book. she recognizes this and this is the tone she struck on how trade interest meet strategic interest. while she was engaging, get auda inside benjamin as the 2nd and 3rd largest economies in the world. it must alarm us in these times when some try to erect new obstacles. hen during the world trade, what unites us is that neither we in europe, nor china want or trade war or tariff as ends and themselves seek without solar. i'd zip sick one and i want to throw that to 0 because this is clearly a not mentioning donald trump by name and, and with those looming terrace and concerns of a trade. how much will that really work inside out? well, not much. and one very interesting discussion i see about this is that,

you know, there are some chinese extra speaking that they're box. she's actually talking to the voters in germany. the how they will be this confidence vote and how they will be coming to elections. so really, her message is not for the chinese audience or the chinese government, but the voters there. i can certainly, i don't know if you sure this then viewpoint. the 23rd of february. so anything, any poll is there's no says right now is also for the vote. is that clear? yeah. right? yes. so, so, so if you ask me like whether that would really influence i, the beijing government, i whether they, they would take a view point. i would say like, you know, like in their statement, you see no rebuttal use the know like, as i said, well for a kind of a response. but you also don't see a concrete as far as that's the child. chinese typical response to everything that they don't agree on and they would not say no, but they were just not responding to you anyways. so i don't see how it's coming,

how he can be to use. so, you know, for, to solve the problem any time on here too. when people think of germany, people see germany is like pro china kind of stands. and then, um, of course, sometimes germany was surprised. this region by, you know, having worship, selling through the townies dray or having more friends coming over. but if you ask where the people believe that germany can play an important role, especially as trump coming in that you know, like this guy, he wanted to have less ties with them to say, like the whole european union or may till then. um, tons of people feel more and more that they can solely rely on trunk and then making on this ration then like the general international framework of security. it's jared to that actually, maybe you can have a prediction for us. where do you see under? cuz we're expecting a change in a,

in leadership here. it looks like the conservatives are going to make it. and if suppose anything to go by right now. so what's your predicts and how would you expect china policy to change? well, so yeah, so the, the conservatives, the, the cd you are likely to be the, the biggest policy in problem at all. so the next selection coming up in february, so that probably means that for each of these mats will be the next john's list. so the leader of that party and to some extent, what kind of a policy you much on china depends on what kind of a coalition he ends up please. because as we, you know, we were just discussing that will of sholtes. he's from the social democrats. he's, you know, the kind of most, let's not rock the boat with china, person in the mix. the green, so it kind of relatively hawkish and the cd. you are kind of a little bit of a mixture i would say. so the cd you came out with a, a strategy of their own towards china last year, which had some kind of tougher language than you would hear suddenly from the

social democrats made one or 2 recommendations which were pretty bureaucratic about how to handle china. but it wasn't necessarily dramatically different in terms of what the outcome would be. and that's the, one of the things that the party said in that strategy was that there should be a potty wide consensus on dealing with china. the china was such a big deal that it should not become a political football and the older party should try to work towards that. so that does indicate that, you know, you might have a, a degree of continuity with a, a bit more of a shift towards a whole case attitude towards china. but i think the fact remains that germany easy to kind of a pickle with how to deal with china and can note it's often said that in a germany has the whole german model is being based on. so the 3 pillars in res to decades. it was getting cheap energy from russia. it was get to having a big business market in china. and it was getting security from the united states

. and all 3 of those things are warbling or well. i mean, of course, the relationship with russia is no warbling is completely blown up. the relationship with us is looking boldly again because donald trump is coming in. and he's of course, notoriously skeptical about the alliance with your so what to do about china is one of the kind of big and resolve questions. and we've just got to discuss the reasons why, why it's so sort of problematic. but ultimately, it will remain the case that many very large and very powerful german companies, a firmly into don't run the boat camp. in fact, they're going well most more land on china if and this thing pulling more investments. it's one of the fascinating things about that since the german government came out with a strategy saying we need to de risk our relationship with china. big gem and companies have actually put more investment into china since then. well, there's different interpretations of what the risking actually means and what that

means producing in the company for the tiny market that's also seen as an element of the receipt from where the companies come from. but the dumb government was also against the european commission move to impose terrace on the vehicles, chinese e vehicles because of those very intrinsic interest and that, but even that you have to split within the general government. you have the readings of babylon in favor of that, but the social democrats, so it's basically you said no way, we're going to be against those terrace to see do use the conservative by the way they said that they supported the tasks that you can't be naive about what, you know, direct quotation or the, the accusation being made by the europeans is that the chinese, the visa are distorting the market. they are subsidized. they coming into it's, it's a sufficiently low price, isn't that for you need the tires? the big question will be what, how that position might shift once the in government, but without doubt, it, china has a strategic role also with the arrival of north korean troops on the russian side

in the ukraine. who am, let's just listen to what i mean. i know, you know, double cab to say about that link. that was a president of drug michigan. what ones russia is. your president isn't just destroying our europe and peace order by involving north korea and his word against ukraine is also dragging in asia. my chinese counterpart and i discussed intensively that this cannot be in china's interest either. that's these alternate statements. that's a he not mine come. so he did this didn't produce a breakthrough, but let me just off the questions you of just to, to wrap this up, does china rule the world a well not yet, you know, in so you can get an idea. you know, we have a lot of chinese chinese experts explaining like, oh, so analyzing this leader all the time. saying that you believe ultimately know that

the rise of the east side, you know, and also the fall of the west. i think that in history and you know, when he sees donald trump coming in, all this will become like more chaotic. that's a chance for facing for china to regain the order. that's to put the china in the end of the stage. so not yet, but maybe the day is coming and we'll see what was side of it is that whether he can take over taiwan or not. oh richard, i mean, what's your predicts and how much more is china gonna sifting the direction of where it feels it should be? it was a well power that calls the political thoughtful southern europe. well, i think it is, it is certainly on this journey in that direction. and i think again, just having come back from united states, this is going to be a, this is, you know, one person who works and kind of part of the federal government system where it was saying to me that competition some with china is becoming and this is by policies

in almost the organizing principle now of the united states government that it, it is the central thread running through so many things from the military to technology, to business, to, to almost every aspect of life that this competition is, has it is, is it the house of everything and even europe, it's not, you know, so there is this sort of simple difference that, that the united states cheat sees china is this absolutely enormous challenge to its power and influence in the world, and particularly in the asia pacific region, but also globally, i am for china in europe, that is simply not the case. the trouble for your pays that you are, is so dependent on the united states for it security, particularly at this time of extreme vulnerability towards russian aggression. that europe doesn't really have the freedom to just sort of say, okay, america,

knock yourselves out, you go and have a fight with china. and we're going to do our own thing. the europe, de facto, can't do that because, you know, donald trump might be very well minded to say, okay, fine, well then by, by nato and you can defend yourself when russia is stopped smoking on the door. and so just kind of that to kind of point to, you know, europe in the us having different perspectives on china, but you're not really having the freedom to kind of completely golf into it. so i'm thing too many extra points for the united states. it's got some real if it wants to really stop china dominating an agent. it has some really serious knots and bolt issues to deal with. for example, it's navy. so the chinese navy is already larger than the u. s. navy, in terms of ship, the number of ships that it has gone to solely in the quality of the ship. so besides the ships, but she and number of 6 ships already bigger. how,

how is that gonna develop in the future in the next few years? will this ship building capacity of china these ship build is, is 230 times as large as us ship building capacity. 230 time some of this we came out to a leak, the u. s. navy presentation. and i spoke to somebody in a position to know in washington st. coming to us and thanks dice, this must be an exaggeration. and he said no more like 500. yeah. so that was a huge difference in terms of ship building capacity. and how can the us defend taiwan? how can us defend alcholay, so from a chinese invasion, if in 5 years china has 234 times as many ships can completely dominate the seas, it won't be able to. so this is a massive priority for the americans right now,

and they are going to need one expert was telling me they're going to need japan, they're going to need south korea, they're going to need the allies, the major to support them with that. so that's gonna be an interesting test for donald trump. can he go from these his previous america, 1st to america, plus friends in order to deal with the challenge of china in asia. but those, the kinds of things really bottom line kind of like have we gotten of stuff challenges the us is going to have to deal with it to face up to, to deal with china. well, clearly we are back and you're also here in europe where military hardware is, it is just as important. yes, it's least as important as the oldest strategic tool that we're seeing. so clearly heading into new era that so thank you very much for your insights. patricky from that trip. this certainly is something that we have to continue talking about off the 20th of january because that will be crunch time when we, when we lun for donald trump's plans for china and do also in type

a. thank you so much for being with us today. you've been listening and watching to biling briefing, you'll find us on youtube at dw news on dw, don't come bowl and briefing, add on old meat of podcast platforms once a week from now onwards. so this week, thanks for tuning in of the, for just a few days each year. they, so a chimed on. the remote is greek islands, gmc 60 doctors from various medical fields. also the basic medical cards, you know, give us great feelings. focus on the next on

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