it doesn't look like they will be leaving any time soon. what will a post a side serial look like? what kind of government will there be? questions that will be answered over a longer time horizon in the short term. so you're in say they have many reasons to celebrate. they say a nightmare is over and break off and berlin, this is the day the things are better now. we can live our lives in the old. i still can't believe it. still saying hello to everybody. i see my mother for the 1st time in 14 years. we're going back to damascus. we got rid of the tyrant, also coming up a pulitzer prize winning journalist an apple bout on her new book about

a world of all the crap. they've been on a roll lately, but then something happened this week in syria, of russia has implied through its actions, into its alliances, that it will be there forever. that its regimes forever. that, that it's, that it's longer lasting, that it's stronger or that it can outlast democracies that it implies are degenerated and divided. and i think this week's news shows that that's just not true. which of our viewers watching on tv as in the united states, into all of you around the world? welcome. we begin today again inside and outside syria. it has been only a few days and trouble forces quickly toppled the sod regime. now just as fast as those is on the sanctions are moving to reshape the country. as crowds continue to celebrate their new found freedom. winders is reporting that former rebels are planning to suspend the existing legislature. this will reportedly include

a committee of experts to be appointed to make amendments to the countries constitution. the weapons of war may have largely fallen silent inside damascus and other major cities. but not all is quiet, especially along the border with israel is really troops on thursday continued their move into end across the go one heights into siri and territory images not seen in half a century. because really we're planning to have also been targeting suspected weapons dumps, insights here. and that is one of several flash points. all along is here is a borders with its neighbors. here is just for an arm factions are looking to submit their own interest moving forward. the victorious is one of us, lead h t s. are now in control of most of the country. now they've set up a government in damascus. they've set their slides on the rest of the syrian. how much of the northeast is held by the kurdish lead sirian democratic forces,

while the turkish back group calling itself the syrian national army, controls much of the territory as you see there along the northern border. series curves had been hoping for autonomy or self rule, but the h t. s. is advances. there's advances, have people fearing the worst theory and kids wasted no time and destroying remnants of all sides room. they are among the many syrian minorities to have some of it under his link, the regime we've been waiting for 13 years and today is our day. it's the codes incurred the stones day and god willing it will be full of joy and happiness. it's nick could make up about 10 percent of serious population along with sizable minorities in iran, iraq, and took a cit. protest have long baffled for an independent state, making them

a target for various governments. during 30 is civil war. the kurdish lead democratic forces fought to create a c, me or thomas area in the countries north, east. the us troops faxed them, and slicing the rise of use in the region and in controlling the oil rich areas. but neighboring turkey has long fought against the syrian kids. it has back renewed attacks and recent days bearing kurdish sit partizan within its own board is key, has also supported the h t. s. rebels who total the assad regime and will now help shape serious future many kids fluid low just hours of to the rebels took control of the city while they've tried to assure minorities and knows at risk,

not everyone is convinced given that's how the lotion of the minorities are worried about how they will be treated to uh, you know, how that those who have taken over now have come out with positive slogans and statements that you need to go to see how it goes. but in practice, everyone is hopeful linux back in the car of the union, people are waiting to see if these positive statements will materialize in practice, i left they have the full of the aside regime could present many risks to syrian kids. but as the country begins to rebuild, they may also be opportunities for the long held goal of self governance, or we're going to be here. the example is given steinberg. he's the middle east list and international terrorism expert from the german institute for international and security affairs. a familiar face to our viewers, get a get to see. you just ask you the speed of everything that's happened in the last

week. did you expect things to happen this quickly? no, i have to confess. even on thursday, when the rebels were advancing on the homes, i didn't expect the said regime to fall. i simply couldn't imagine that all the wide, 8 forces, the republican guard, the 4th division, paramilitaries off the intelligence services would simply melt down. i simply couldn't believe it. what about the, the, the situation for the courage? the future for the, for it's, um, is the only shooting that is going on right now seems to be at the moment seems to be aimed them. why is that finding? why is it still ongoing? well, i think it's only the beginning because what we do see in syria is a major victory for the rest of the territory in italy that was ruled by h t. s or that is still ruled by h t. s was, uh, was the turkish protector for years already. so what we see now is

a victory also took his client in damascus to gather with the syrian national army, which are in fact a case auxiliaries. and they have, they have to come to cushion auxiliaries in, in recent years. so it is only logical that these forces will now fight for the, for the one tractors calls in syria. and that's the demise of the p. k. k, missouri and codes and the stuff that's due to the, the h t. s coming to power in damascus is, is a good case. it's not the best case scenario in, in the eyes of air to want, if you're looking at it from, from turkey. but that has to be, that's a very damning, damning indictment for the kurtz. yes, yes it is. but it's a, it is a fact. turkey and car has been supporting his mom is tall over them, at least in the recent decade. and now for the 1st time, cherokee has called

a major victory, but its main interest in the country is not to have an ally in damascus. its main interest is to betel the kurds in order for the p k. k. and it is the p k. k that is fighting in these not to reach and an autonomy or even an independent state. they are not producing were, was very key and, and so on. if you're getting this in in it, it says a lot about the way we receives the kurds. there's often a leftist romanticize view of the kurds in the cafeteria and grass roots and arcus booth. and they operate under the moniker syrian democratic forces. this is that the reality was if the issue believes that in that a democracy can be ruled by the single party. if you believe that the gd are the

soviet union board democracies, then you might believe that the p k. k is a democratic move. it's simply, it's a single party. it's an all tory terry and party, which of course, proposes an id. ology that is somewhat known to many leftist in the west. and that is where the sympathies come from. but still, it is also a terrier. and the p. k. k is on the european, the john and the american terrorism list. for the reasons you sent me because of the violence that is tough to try to ask you. but the united states has agreed to end its military presents interact and next year. what does that mean for the us presence in syria and donald trump is about to take out? yeah, it was one of the major aims of donald trump's, the middle east policies to end the american presence and sort of yeah, i remember that it was only the, the adults in the room who saved occurred to me by convincing him to leave some

900 troops in the country, if the american presence in iraq ends, the american presence in this area is i'm terminal. there will have to withdraw, but enough for the europeans, the europeans. yes, it is a do they will they have a rope? or they might have a road, but not a military role. the europeans have showed, pronounced his interest in the face, in the fate of the church in recent years. and i believe that donald trump will withdraw our troops from syria and iraq. and that will probably mean that this code is project in east and syria is due russia. it did not, would not support assad to the end. what does his removal mean for russia's presence in, in syria, and by extension, for russia's meddling in african countries? when in syria,

it probably means that the russia will have to evacuate its 2 bases. the base in the home, i mean, close to the attack. yeah. and the navy base in the entire twos. there are currently no russian ships entire twos anymore. i've seen some, some satellite photos in, in, in recent dollars. i can't really imagine that h t s would accept a continued russian presence, but we have to be a little bit careful. in afghanistan, we had a similar similar situation where the russians were considered to be an important enemy by the tale bon, right off to the, to cobra. in 2021, russia and china, a boot quite good relations to the regime over there. so, what? well, we might be up to some surprises in the, in the relationship between h t. s and the russians, but i can tell you there's things always get a good,

have you this to be a good to get your analysis. thank you. thank you. as well, the fall of one shall assault in syria has put a sizable didn't in the armor of alliances among the dictators of these are the all the crowd suv as my next guest says are united in their aim of the really the rules based international order as we know it, the pulitzer prize winning author and apple bout addresses that alliance in her latest book. i'll talk with the ink, the dictators who want to run the world. she examines how these authoritarian leaders help each other to undermine the liberal values that they see as a threat to their own existence. these are leaders united more so by deals less so by high deals. i'm happy to walk into the program tonight and applebaum, and it's good to have you. with this, i have to start with what has been the, the biggest story all week, the end of the assad regime in syria. how do you read this?

is this a defeat for autocracy inc, or did the older crowd simply managed to discard a weak link? a siri was really important project for both russia and a ron. and it was probably the origin of their closer relationship, which we now see playing out in ukraine where the radians are helping the russians to destroy ukrainian cities. so i think what's interesting though about syria, as your, as your question implies, is it, it's also clearly a place where both russia and iran for different reasons, were unable to continue helping keep their clients stay in power. the, the russians because of needing to send weapons and people back to ukraine in order to in order to, to, to fight it that are um and the, the range because of the losses suffered by his bola, who was their main, their main proxy in the region you know so, so the, the system that existed before which was that there was enough money and enough

outside aid coming in the assad, bosher, all this thought was, was able to stay in power, wasn't able to keep the system going anymore. people who worked for the regime began to fear that it was going to lose. and you saw what happened. they stop fighting in your book as you reference what's termed a regime survival package offered by russia, for example, to some african autocracies. given the failure of russia to bill out a sod, what is that rushing guarantee worth tonight? this is a question that i hope a lot of people asking themselves right now. um, you know, there was a, a clear russian guarantee to assad. there are russian base is still in syria. we don't really know yet what their fate is. there is implied russian health or been mercenaries. there is, there has been military a do a number of dictatorships in africa, but also the russian has played a role in venezuela. in cuba,

in nicaragua and elsewhere. and i do hope that the leaders of those countries begin to ask themselves whether this is a support for we might not last. and, you know, russia has implied through its actions into its alliances. that it will be there forever. that it's regimes forever that, that it's, that it's longer lasting, that it's stronger or that it can outlast democracies that it implies are degenerated and divided. and i think this week's news shows that that's just not true. yeah, i mean, the thoughts felt despite the relative proximity of his, his backers, iran and russia. if you need to push yourself further, i'm wondering how secure do you think venezuelan leader nicholas maturer is feeling tonight? and it's very interesting. i actually think there are a lot of parallels between the syrian situation of the vin as well and one, even of course, of course, there are different parts of the world and they have nothing in common culturally

or otherwise. but in venice, but in syria, you clearly had a military and a police force who lost faith in the regime and who didn't want to defend it anymore. when the rebels came into 1st, the level and then damascus, they were actually, they were, they weren't fighting, they just marched it, and people deserted their post. the venezuelans, i know they've been, is when regime is equally worried about their own army and their own security forces. and this is stepping back. this is a problem for all the dictatorships, you know, the, the security police and the, and in the army. these are part of the country to and then when you have a system of mass refreshing like in syria or increasingly venezuela, you know, people's cousins and friends and relatives and, and you know, acquaintances are victims of the regime and they know it. and so the moment that they sense weakness that the regime isn't going to protect them or stand by them or give them special privileges anymore, that's the moment when they're, when the systems begin to fall. and this is something that absolutely could happen

in venezuela. very good, can we talk about a global network of all the crowds helping each other? and you said that there you're not even more in their deals, less of in their ideals. it sounds like you're describing fair weather friends here is that an accurate assessment? i don't know that it's fair weather friends as much as um, these are regimes that are linked to one another opportunistically. so they are linked by some deep bonds of friendship or shared ideology. i mean, there is no shared id allergy between russian and iran and syria and then as well. but they're, they're rather linked by a perception of common interest. whether it's common interest in the narcotics trade or common interest in disruption or common interest and maintaining themselves in power or common interest and laundry money. that's. that's why they're why that's why they work together. the moment that one of them perceives that the other is too weak or effective, or it can help anymore,

that's one of these bonds will break with it. so it's a, it's a tricky question. it doesn't mean that they're weak relationships, because opportunistic relationships can be quite strong. but when the situation changes, you could see you could see this as you can see shifts. what about donald trump, or are we in a couple of weeks for a few weeks, going to be able to say he is the strongest, all the crowds most powerful, all the credit and the world as i think that's not a good word to use. you know about an elected american president, it is true that he's talked about some american democratic institutions undermining them. he's, he's not nominated people who've also spoken about that. it's possible that he could be the beginning of a decline of american democracy. it's also possible that he will not see himself, and we know he doesn't see himself as the, as the leader of a democratic camp in this, in the sense that most presidents,

since the 2nd world war have. but you know, america is a big country. there are a lot of other forces. there's a, there's an opposition there. there's opposition, even within the republican party. there are other existing institutions. let's see what happens are there, you know, they're there. unfortunately, i do think that the united states will be distracted by this in form of internal struggle over the next few years. but we don't yet know who the who, who will when let me ask you, let me pull you back to, to the situation. you're that of course being the more in ukraine and in germany's role with all of this in germany, as you know, was criticized for dragging its feet up to help you. crane with the russian invasion began. now the majority of german said that they are against sending towards missiles to ukraine and early elections in february could see the greens, the green party decimated, in part due to that parties hawkish, foreign policy. particularly these of the ukraine. i'm in the western liberal order

. would you say that germany is looking like a week leak? or i fear the germans don't really understand what the consequences of the losing the war and ukraine would be for germany. and the consequences would be that they would have to spend more money on defense that they would be in greater danger. that there would be an economic and political and refugee crisis on a scale. no one has imagined yet. what is this all these guys, agents, what do, what do you and why do you think that's not being communicated to them? of the i, it's not for me to say what german positions to do or should say, but i, i don't think that the stakes of the war or why they understood, i mean, i shouldn't, let's be clear and it's not that they're not understood there. i need germans all the time who understand what you're saying very well what the, what, what's happening and who, and who had been rightly proud actually of the degree to which germany did change

its policy. and it did step up to help you crane. and i think people, or are, you know, forget how oppose germany was before the war began to, to sending any weapons of any kind to ukraine. and now they've, they've changed so, you know, so, so, so it's not as if nothing has happened. but i, i just fear that for, it's not just germany, actually, i fear that for most europeans, what's at stake isn't, isn't fully understood that the choice is not between or we stop the war and then everything goes back to normal. you know, the choices rather we, we, if we lose the war, nothings normal ever again and or nothing returns to the way it was. and we spend more money on defense and we suffer from greater instability. and i just don't think people have thought that through yet the, the wishful thinking about a negotiated deal and the wishful imagination that we're going to fix this fast. or there's some instance solution, worries me a lot, not just in germany, in your book, and you're out of it in,

in your call for the free world to stand up to all the crafts on each, defend ukraine. and to do that, um, you know, anywhere at any time, i mean, it seems like you're painting a very hump, see, and view of the world with the free world facing future with never ending conflicts or mores. i mean, is there an optimistic view that we are not seeing here, maybe that we could see, i mean, will this have a happy ending? i mean, looks serious, should be a shot of optimism for everybody. so that there was no regime that seemed more immovable than the syrian regime, which has been there for half a century. and, you know, in it, it didn't appeared to have, you know, no possibility of losing it appeared to have, you know, iron clad hold over the whole country. it was using horrible violence against its opponents, apparently with impunity. and you know, and yet it fell in a matter of days. i mean an hour is really an end. and i think that shows to

everybody who imagines that dictatorships are somehow stronger and more stable. i think that shows how fragile they are, that with the, the moment that people sense weakness at the moment they feel that it's over then, then it falls apart very fast. and i think that we should remember that when we're dealing with the wrong dealing with russia, dealing with north korea, dealing with any of these regions all over the world. may i ask before we run out of time, but i'm in your book, you write that during the civil war, the syrian regime was trying to tell it's people that the country was a prime tourist destination. i mean, not just telling a lie, but making people fear the liar and it worked. and this is a model that's been repeated in many places around the world. it's miss information . when i ask you, you know, as a journalist, journalist, a journalist, how did you see successfully counteracting this and, and holding the powerful, accountable moving for this is one of the most difficult moments, for fact,

based or evidence based journalism that there has ever been the, the people, the, the, the trust that people once had in different forms of media, rightly or wrongly, it has disappeared. it's, it's much more difficult than it used to be to, to, to build audience support and trust. nevertheless, i think that's a, that's the only way forward. and, you know, journalists like outlets need to understand themselves, not purely as businesses, and not purely as organizations with the job of just reporting the news. they need to find way to build relationships with audiences. they need to think about how to reach audiences, whether through traditional methods or through different forms of social media, not just social media, but other forms of, of internet contact. i mean, i think a lot of news organizations have done that pretty well and, and, and we'll, we'll be able to survive. but, but understanding that as the, as the, as this as the what has to be the base for their future. you know,

this relationship with audience is having building trust. i think that's that has to be, that has to be our business model. i agree, and a couple of them. we appreciate your taking the time to talk with us tonight. thank you. thank it's as well the day continues online. you'll find this on the x also known as twitter and on youtube, the w news you can follow me on social media and brent golf t v. and remember what ever happens between now and then tomorrow is another day, it will be friday. we'll see you then everybody, the

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the classify as discussing. a donkey series about our complex relationship with animals. the debate watch now on youtube, w documentary, the vistas dw, and use africa coming up on the program house in crisis. how can, can you address a shortage of 2000000 new income homes? we take a look at how some of night will be homeless. people like guessing by and explore some of the challenges and options i have as kenya stab and population grooves. plus how remote work has re shaping the house in markets and taped down. the government is welcoming them, but some locals are not so pain. we'll find out why also i had a jew belonged to return to office, will gone as president elect john muhammad, as the country bottles on economic prices will examine what his victory means for one of africa's model democrats.