the way officer rules, the environment is not responsible make up your own mind dw, made for mines. the germany is conservative at c, d, u, the party of angle, a miracle as outraged other parties by trying to pass through a tough anti immigration policies using support. from the far right, it is a huge tebow, broken in parliament, cd you later for the jewish merits. try to push through draft legislation with backend from the a s t the alternative for germany. now the country is wondering how far to the rights are. germany's conservatives willing to go merits his party is at the top of the poles less than a month before national elections. so this week on to the point, we're taking a closer look at the germany's conservatives today. are their policies now closer

to those of on the miracle? or donald trump, the hello, i'm clear, richardson, thank you so much for joining us on. this makes addition of to the point i'm so pleased to introduce our panel. we have, you are lout an editor of foreign affairs at the german weekly d types. ralph bowman, he's written a biography of uncle a miracle and is also editor at the german weekly. the front porch or of the mine and its own text title. and cate brady weekly reporter bailey reporter, we should say for the washington post in berlin are focused on german politics. so fantastic panel of gust. thank you so much for joining me today. i think it makes sense to starts with a bit of international perspective for viewers, kate, the f t party has until now had

a so called firewall up around it from the other german parties in which they say that they would not work together with them. why is that? i mean, this is very deeply ingrained into germany's postal history. it's part of germany's ever again mentality. the idea is that the policies in the german column, it would never cooperate with a 5 right policy. and that is being the case in germany's entire post will history . but of course this is kind of come to the full for a lot more since the i f t and ended parliament for the 1st time in 2017. and this has been a, this was a huge to figure that was, that was broken last week. and whether or not, you know, made it so we can get into whether or not this firewall is, it's a known as is really still standing, all the cracks. it isn't crumbling, every mentor full under the sun is being used in the last week, but it's certainly on shaky ground. yeah, we certainly will be getting further into that. in today's episode, i want to ask ralph or so about merits pushing for these tough anti immigration

policies. what do you think he hopes to gain from this? yeah, i think it was influenced by the last a tech of, as of it's happened in the back in town of a shopping book a 2 weeks ago. and the day after he presented a tough migration plan which was quite successful in german public. and was very much a claimed and that's uh and he had the impression that he had to go further. and then one long day after he said, well, i will bring that to the polymer and what ever it takes and i won't have a look to the left or to the right address right on all in. and yeah, and she didn't really reflect a realize what she was doing, what that was my impression that they were saying instead of working with the typical other parties, he brought this forward anyway, knowing that he wouldn't have their support on it. uh no, because we have the election, so of course in 3 weeks, and i think that would be

a topic for the collision talks after the election and t. uh the solution would have been that he presents the plan for the campaign. and then after the election, the democratic parties talk about conditions and what to do uh, on migration. yeah. so something interesting to the timing here to write your, we should say this, this was usually controversial in germany, right? versus decision to go ahead with this a, if the support there were huge demonstrations in berlin after the fact. why was this such a controversial decision as a k just mentioned i, it was a terrible broker. and it also posted a question on the table. this is now a model that he wants to follow up after having, having coalition talks that maybe don't leave anywhere and then willy again depends

on the d. a form, some kind of informal agreement as a minority government or even a coalition with them. he says he will never do that. he said that over and over again. but the question of his trustworthiness in that respect is now out in the open and it's, it's going to be there for the rest of the company. yeah, so that is very much the undercurrent, the, the question behind all of this, right. let's turn to these questions in just a moment. first though, i do want to get a bit more context because when most people in the world think of germany, one of the 1st people they'll of course think of is former chancellor on the la miracle. but now that her party is led by feverish merits. he's demanding a quite serious departure from much of what she is known for and not just in terms of immigration policy, a privilege bounce, and uncle americans, the current cd you leader and possible new chancellor and the former chancellor and

party leader political tribals with extremely different personalities in 2015, now co supported an influx of over 1000000 refugees into germany, mainly from syria and afghanistan. math to coined the phrase, we can do it. as i smell coast retirement in 2021 now says re aligned is parties migration policies. he wants to greatly reduce the inflow setup controls at all borders and turn away asylum seekers there. when he introduced a resolution outlining these aims in the stock, he accepted votes from the a f d known to be home to right wing extremists. the motion isn't binding, but it's caused quite a stir. some see, this is preaching a tablet. even uncle america has criticized the boat. an unusual move for a former chancellor. there is crumbling in the city. is it still the party of mount

good? not all in peace followed bounce, some voted against the motion wheel, his vision of a stricter migration policy prevail. i know so, kate, after 16 years as chancellor miracle is now in retirement, she's mostly out of politics. how surprising was it to hear her then come out on this issue? it was extremely surprising. she's being very quiet on a number of other issues when people of perhaps expected her a hope that she would speak out. um, you know, we can talk about things like russia, ukraine, and she stayed very quiet and put on this topic. it was surprising when we saw that statement appear on her on her webpage just just a week ago. and the fact that allstate, the, there's a history is a long history between mats and macro as well. ultimately, i never base to leadership competition going by who the 25 years ago now was ultimately why we so naturally leave jeremy's political stage for some time open in

the way in the long run for ungrammatical, to become germany's leader for 16 years. and so i think it had the extra lab that the, this was coming, this criticism was coming from macro of all people. but as we saw that and just in that short video as well, it couldn't be where a maps has taken the cd. you on especially the issue of migration, it couldn't be further away from what we saw at the height of the migration crisis . 2015 with germany's welcome culture and my group migrants welcome refugees. welcome. which obviously said over the past 10 years, a massive turn around on, on, on the, the feeling and in the country we saw a decade ago. exactly the same as the cold towards. you think americans just putting the nail in the coffin to be honest. and i was not so much surprised about the intervention of hunger linebacker and that was not so much uh, because of my, um, the migration products is of a furnace maps. uh, i think fits what it looks like. this the only migration. and she would have said

nothing here. uh because i back the house health of course made off the 2015, much tough, our migration policy. but the point was a liberal, the future of liberal democracy. and germany is the last a lots rest on democracy of a populist have not so much influence on government and so long and the to boil for just mass broke. and this sounds, it was the point when she taught, she had to intervene and she, as the person at the time when donald trump was elected for the 1st time in the united states. and there was a breakfast vote and breaking at she was the person who defended liberal democracy as the leader of so you've asked that uh that was a lease uh the impression and uh the international uh, seeing uh and that is the point why this argument at having

a vote and the problem and the right thing, extra mist for us. so crucial for her. so that's really the question right yard. i mean are germany's conservatives now leaning towards embracing far right? populism? well, i think not intentionally on the part of mounts. he wanted a stricter migration policy, his calculation was i can't get it with the center left. so i'm going to blackmail them little bit by not excluding a vote with the a of the. and then he even added some language into the draft proposals that were not using to swallow for the f d thinking they wouldn't vote for it, but they voted for it anyway. so he got out smarted by the a d and it was a miscalculation. so i don't think it's, it's really, there was a big plan to,

to move the cd you towards the populace nationalist for right. he wanted to use them and he got you. so that's the problem of this maneuver. and when you actually look at what merits wants to do with immigration, how much overlap is there between the cd use platform and that of the f d? well, in terms of migration policy, there is overlap. i mean, the sd is all about migration and shutting down the migration once and for all closing the borders, they have a very populous agend other there's some overlap there, but in other issues that are very, very essential for to see to you there is absolutely no way they can cooperate like ukraine, russia, policy, natal, in transatlantic relations and, and even also the economy. i don't see that they really could work together. and we

should also say, um, as you've mentioned, new york, that swedish merits has categorically ruled out any cooperation with the a, a, a he told us that an interview with a d. w. yeah. but we're not collaborating with his party that we weren't last week, aren't this week, and won't be next week either. if we won't accept the a, if these tests that support and won't even talk with them, cuz the a f d stands for the exactly opposite of everything that's important to us. as nato ties with the west, the you the euro, c a f, the rejects it, all the sd of holes. okay. your thoughts here do you believe match when he says that was a one off or will there potentially be more future cooperation between the cd? you and a f t, i think if you're gonna say, and it wasn't so much intentional, but it was almost inevitable in a way we kind of would say we saw this moment coming. and,

and he was played by the a f day. the end of the story that he saw the, the, that the, i asked, he wouldn't vote in favor of this motion as it was just because there were some very harsh words in the, from the, from the cd you about the f t was, was very naive in a way, but i think that you have, it's not only what this means for the political pass of the cd you, but also what effect this has on votes is, and we're only just going to start seeing if there is really any effect here in the polls, but in the long term what this does, of course, there were concerns among the more, let's say, uh, medical a corners of the cd here that this would scare off most century cd your voters. but, but on the other hand, while suddenly you know, cd versus aren't necessarily going to say, okay, well, now going by asking, because i don't think the firewall is particularly strong anymore. what it does do is legitimize what they ask the stumble and then that's and it is going to strength,

and they stay at a time when right now they're already on for months, have been polling as the 2nd strongest policy in germany. still, no chance at all, we think of governing at least now, but we do have to look ahead to what that means for years down the line in the next election twins 2 twins 9, wherever they going to be. then whereas the cd you going to be on the political spectrum? are we going to see more, you can call and access, then we can call it intentional. what happened with this cooperation, but ultimately match allowed that to happen. he didn't need to put this draft on the table and it was partly about putting the social democrats in the greens under pressure as well. so to do, you know, the employees won't action when it came to, to migration. but as i was saying earlier, is all timing as well, and we have to ask how much of this was about electioneering? this was off the back of 2 very tragic fateful attacks and committed by the suspects at least are non german nationals. and that brought the topic of

migration back to the full gun. and i think that isn't itself is really interesting to that in recent months. it's actually the economy that for the 1st time in years has been the most important topic for, for john invite is. yeah, absolutely. now, ralph, i also want to pick up on what kate mentioned regarding of how this will play with public opinion. i thought it was interesting that germany's 2 largest churches also came out to condemn merits here. right. and, and they're condemning someone who is the leader of the christian democrats. how much weight will their words have? mm. while it's not sure yet, because the, we don't have seen a cause which done really after this event. and it's always takes a little bit of time before people realize that. but we have this huge demonstrations last weekend in berlin and other german cities and, and i think that 2 problems. problem number one is that for this match mates migration, as she mentioned that the migration to the main topic of the campaign for the rest

of the time. and of course, that's always in favor of the right extra most popular of a if the because they are the positive which was at identified with migration the end to the other problem of course is that uh uh, photos, centrist motors. uh, perhaps a vote vote for a furnace maps or infested you any more because they mistrust him and they are not so sure anymore. that's a version now says you voted a copyright for the right for an extra after the election, and then he will do it like this. of course, this because of course, he already already broke his bets last week and people think that that could happen again. and i think the best is not good for political stability in germany.

germany was one of the last less than democracy is with a really strong sense rights, conservative party because they always had the clear strategy not to cooperate with arriving extra minutes and not to make their issues strong. that was a mistake of its potters in france, in austria, and many other countries are made and this is in danger. and this is not good for for democracy. if for this matter, we will have a, a bad result in the elections because the bill have again as we had the last 3 is a weak government or if many discussions, many problems or even perhaps the critics and talks will fail. and then we have a situation like an australia, perhaps, perhaps other people who are not so clear in this question. we'll take over in

the conservative party and cooperate with the right for an extra mas all which is a possibility and an author as well. all we have a secondary next of this young boy. what is exciting that we'll see you all back in the yard. maybe you could just pick up where ralph left off. i guess what i'm curious about is when you look at the situation more broadly, what is going on here is this about the cd you trying to co opt votes from the a of see or, or does it actually reflect a shift in german society toward more conservative opinions, especially on migration. it's both as both um we have seen opinion polls on the issue of immigration asylum where you can see that there is a right word shift in the public. and it's also includes voters of the social democrats and the greens. so there's a broad consensus that something needs to happen to contain migration to germany and to distinguish between asylum seekers and those will come

to work here. so there's a consensus there, but it's a different issue when it comes to the question. who should i? should i put this in to work this to this problem, to different policy that people want? and i think if, if you look at the big picture, internationally, centrist, big tend, conservative parties are under pressure everywhere by a populous nation list, right? wing groups in the us, it's republicans have been taken over by trump. ism conservatives in britain are in, in big problems and in france. so almost nonexistent. so, and it's, it's the same development that's taking place in germany right now. so it's

interesting that it has taken longer for this to happen in germany than in other western european democracies, right? k. so the, and i think part of that was to do with this very strong firewall, was it was, it was held for it for a long time, but i'm at the same time. sorry to just repeat the question again. yeah, just isn't. it's interesting that germany has come to, has shifted in these trends. more recently than many other western european democracies that we're actually seeing exactly what you've just described. i think we have to keep in mind as well that they, they, if they was only founded in 20. so that's a num because of this, this push back against i'm and the fall right in germany for so many decades. of course i was all right. parties, all right, extreme is boss is as well. so something funds and pre named. but the fact that a, for my project could that make it into a problem, and that was a huge to be at the time we saw demonstrations on the streets back in 2017 when they asked the ends of calling them for the 1st time. and so when it comes to some of these trends, often germany is a little late to the i don't want to say cause

a button, it relates to the trend added to the trend. and so, and i think that played a huge role. the fact that the a update is relatively new and is shifted very quickly. the policies radicalized that began, you know, it's roots and that's in this, your skeptic policy. if you compare that to something like him, you know, the, the nearest equipment, the, or the freedom party in, in austria, in or they've been around since the 1950s. and they've had shifts where they were more moderate, more conservative, more fluoride. and now, arguably at that most fall right in the policies history and people of, at a lot of time, that kind of get to grips with the policy what they've done for. and the f t has just shifted further and further and further, right. go ahead and go these route. one common reason of course of history that because germany, because of the knots of history, it was always quite noon against wide spring extremism and was not why did they not accept this in the public? and that's similar in other countries which had arrived from the title ship,

even after and 1945, such as spain or greece, or possibly go by develop that relates to what rights are being extra mist movements. and i do want to just hold that thought for just a moment. i do want to just take a quick look at the issue of immigration again since it's come up. so often with merkel is famous phrase of your shopping task. apparently having lost its shine, for example, we've seen figures from the german government showing attacks on asylum seeker holmes, increasing again to more than 200 attacks and just in 2024. and that is, as kate has mentioned, among a series of high profile attacks that have been involved, migrants as suspects in the last few years. the morning you know something in january of this year, a man stepped and killed a 2 year old try and then killed someone who rushed to help. the alleged perpetrator is a mentally ill refugee from afghanistan. the attack is the latest in

a series of violent crimes perpetrated by migrants of living in germany. it's profit. sweepstakes mounts to call for a change in migration policy. he wants controls at all borders and for the long term, not just temporarily. the openly declared himself in favor of violating the law if necessary, be set. the distribution of refugees is unfair and hurts germany. but there are protests. will the use largest country go it alone on migration policy. leaders in austria and poland are among those voice and concerns us president donald trump also wants to take a hard line on immigration. he signed a decree declaring a state of emergency at the border with mexico, a highly controversial move. his goal is to end all the immigration across the border map says that if elected he will start implementing pushed backs at the

border on day one. but is that really possible and wouldn't that violate german and european law? so ralph, just to really bring things home here. i'm curious how this debate in germany around immigration has taken such a negative framing, even among many of the main parties, it's a dealt with as something that's negative that must be dealt with. but the vast majority of my friends do live in germany peacefully. many of them go to pay taxes . how did we get here? that's, i think that's a, it's a little bit of range debate. as the integration of the migrants who came 201516 and the reference you classes towards with germany quite well integrated, 80 percent of the syrian man who ramped about. so came the time to germany. i do work. so it's a, i think also that we are debating

a little bit. uh uh we should that should it should to back a little bit more about the 6 has it not always how unsuccessful we are. and so you are with that in mind. uh, do you see parallels between what's happening in germany and the united states? yes, absolutely. i think the main power level is that it's about the taking back control and losing control as what, what everybody wants to avoid and that generally favors the right. and i think of you have to have to give that to just the big mouth and he actually wants to get, take back control. and, and yeah, yeah, kate, very briefly will be the final whirl word is this main conservative party in germany now closer to merkel or to donald trump. certainly sliding towards donald trump. and again, you can see that trend across europe. that's the thing. germany's also influenced and the shift to the far right is very clearly be normalized. i was going on around

germany across the atlantic. we'll have to leave it there. thank you so much for the lively discussion. i'm sorry. richardson in berlin. it you've been watching to the point. thank you so much for joining us this week. the, the, the

exciting pod costs know on tv. my fee is and with i'm going to be a good model that always you can defend yourself that you can start off with. what is it like to come out when you're married? how does on mental health impact a lot of life between east to west or the cross is right in the middle and the world around germany is getting more dangerous. we de code what it means senior d. w to the point. strong opinions, clear international perspectives. the man who may well be germany's next

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