history, its reliance on the us, and the question of financing. all that makes it unlikely that germany will be leading europe's defense any time soon. the okay. spelling briefing time and today we're going to get you briefed on the green party here in germany deaf fighting to stay in government offices this month. selections. first of all, we're going to be digging into that belief and that pretty extraordinary journey from peace movement hippies of the 1980s to defends hawks today. then we'll talk about the cabinet, the chancellor robot hall, back a man who's adored by some and a proper hate sake of others. and finally, we'll look ahead with some predictions of whether the greens will make it back into power. i'm here with julia, so deli and ben nights and both of them have followed the greens closely over the years. so it's great to have you both here. so let's get started and i think i want

to start with a kind of a little bit of time travel. let's go back set the scene. we're in the 19 of the 1980s west germany. a new party comes onto the scene. how does it will get started been? well, i think it's quite easy to figure out now because the stablish is a, a government pots a and then, oh, it's already been in government and several states in germany that they, they started out as this of a collection of friends groups, essentially who are like protest those processes all over the west in a they were like made it's especially from the anti nuclear power movement. and they saw a co, a less than 2 apology in the early eighty's, and it became so yeah, and it, and they, and they really established themselves. and that was a very much a kind of, almost as essentially spots a us government. yeah. it's a, it's a really amazing journey. they be known as nature. yeah. so it's a, give a feel for the vibe. yeah. like ben was saying, i mean, it's a bit sort of to be,

i mean, we're in the depths of the cold was still on the final decade, really, of the cold war. and, you know, opposing nuclear power, for instance, was a major part of that platform. but they quickly just bite those kind of crusty kind of roots. they got into into parliament, fos, didn't they? yes, it took them basically 3 years from their founding and of, of the party in 1980 to entering parliament and 1983. and there, there's this, these famous pictures of us go fish, a, one of the big figures of the party who was sworn in a wearing a nike white and nike sneakers. yeah, that's kind of like a conic representing how these these, these new and partly radical. just different kinds of people entering parliament. they weren't wearing suits. they were wearing like worn sweaters and sneakers. and it was kind of a breath of fresh air in the way in the sort of german political environment. but of the, i think the sort of quickly adapted to parliamentary live to the political life in

germany. and it didn't take them that much to actually then, you know, and through governments. yeah. so, so yeah, let's, let's move a little bit further along the timeline yet to, to the late 19 ninety's. and i brought along that that program for the, the federal election in 1998. and this was the election where they went from being an opposition for us to that she met us to get into the government into a coalition with the social democrats at the time. and yeah, so i bought in part of that at that party program and it's cool to include is to have x so, so that means like, so the green is the change. it sounds a little bit sort of poetic yet, and i'm going to transfer. i'm gonna, i'm going to translation of, of one of the lines in that talking about nato and defense. just to give you a feel of what kind of a punch it was at that point. so it says, quote from the party program, the long term n t military strategy of the greens ames to dissolve military alliances and

national armies into a pan european peace and security order. it must replace nature and enable comprehensive disarmament and stripping the power of the miss a tree, industrial complex. so ben, this late ninety's, i mean with well beyond the end of the cold war here, that's quite, it's pretty strong stuff. basically get rid of nato and this, um, yeah, i mean, you do wonder what happened so that, i mean where, where, where are those that are that part of the policy program has gone recently and is, and it's quite noticeable as well because they have a strongly pacifist and 19 nights are, and especially in east germany, they have almost, they have very few votes as now. and i think a lot of that stop by and see nato sense. and then as of coalesced around the vfw that been this all american tonight. yeah, it's kind of those, those barriers have gotten that all the left policy as well and i'll just kind of

potty to on the far left to of, of gentleman politics. but but yeah, so, so at that time julie at the green party went into that government in 1998, you know, family and te, militarist. yeah. but during the course of that government, they kind of had a bit of a baptism when it came to the use of military force to me. yes. and this was a party whose members before, were, you know, they were famous pictures of them being watered cannon by police because they were protesting against having us missile stations in western germany. so, you know, this is kind of where they were coming from. and during their 1st student and government quite soon and 1999 with the war in the balkans. yoshika fisher, who was the foreign minister. so the guy miss me because he just knew exactly. he was for a minister at the time in this coalition, and he was faced with the choice of whether germany would support a nato intervention against yugoslavia at the time,

which was mostly it was serbia and montenegro a in the cause of a war. so he, his government decided to support this intervention, nato bombing in certain the, uh, to stop what was happening and close to what the time. and he did end up getting the support of his party to, to go ahead with this. it was a very controversial party congress. yoshika fisher got a paint bomb thrown at him. there it was, pink, red paint. but indians, he managed to bring the party along with him. there were a lot of party members who were more sort of on the left in that case, who decided to leave the party after this decision. but i think the sort of marks of turning point for the party where they're sort of enter the realm of lay out a politic and where they, you know, take a decision that moves them away from, from their origins. yeah. and do with them sort of embracing to some extent, this idea of liberal interventionism. yeah. which is sometimes talked about as this idea that,

that liberal lo progressive policies can justify the use of military force if it is in the name of, you know, preventing atrocity is human rights abuses, something like that. we should also mentioned that um, since i did that so some of his credibility back over the rack was that and because because the other obviously against the of that cool and they and there's an exciting to see why a fish are confronted colin powell over the washing purpose of my sister option, so that kind of thing that did kind of go back to the yeah, yeah and, and there was a famous scene when he was at the munich security conference where, where he says, i think to donald rumsfeld, wasn't it on that occasion, you know, we are not convinced by your arguments for the iraq war. yeah. so on the one hand, you know, in favor of liberal military intervention when human rights are at stake. but against an invasion that they so as a legal, under international law, and that was in the case of the iraq war. okay. so that's,

that's part of the journey that they be not less fast forward. again, back to now 2025 and the party program to a degree. and so i put out this year which is called suzanne and x. and so kind of to get the grow well, sort of grow together basically in english where the order um, and this time around what they say about nato is very different. just remember what we just heard from 1998, talking about replacing nato and an anti military strategy. all right, let's see what they say. now. we stand by our nato alliance commitments and the necessary expansion of our military capabilities piece. dumont's reliable funding with a defense budget that invests significantly more than 2 percent of gross domestic product. so we've gone from wanting to dismantle the military and dismantle nato, to strengthening nato, and increasing spending on defense. and in fact,

robot how back the candidate for john. so at this time segments we, he's up to 3.5 percent of gdp, military spending. yeah, i think of it all of this. this also fits into the context of, you know, why they are now pushing for strengthening the military, strengthening nato. and it all sort of changed again with a rushes and vision of ukraine. this is seen by the greens as is the biggest violation of international law that there is violating the sovereignty of a sovereign state. and with the head of russia loving me and putting currently seeing as a dictator and someone who doesn't respect human rights. and these are values that are still very important for the green party. and so for them it's also on the one hand, the issue of defending sovereign state ukraine. democracy but also stopping a leader that as seen as victoria autocratic and going against a lot of the,

the values up the green stand for. yeah. so from that point of view, i mean the greens would argue that is absolutely coherent with previous positions. you know, they went into the balkans to protect people. they objected to the rock for because it was a breach of international law. and they very much object to the invasion of ukraine because that is in that rise and even more gross violation of international law. yeah, the question is whether the voters have gone with them. yeah. expose this is where the germans takes to agree that the same party in yeah, they and well, let's get to that. but robert, hi back. so it, him personally, but the party is a whole. what does it fit in the spectrum of parties in terms of its position on the, on the triangle is pretty, it's very much at the sort of hawkish end of the spectrum. right? yeah, apparently, yeah. i mean, that was interesting. is that because they always used to be within the green carts here kind of division between what were called the outlaws and the fundies as of the religious and the fundamental this yeah, so they,

i listen for these. and this was, this really was the kind of, i did a division with the policy that, that really overshadowed on measure everything for the 1st couple of decades. yeah . yeah. and then whenever they, because they have this principle of having always having 2 leaders and who is the mind and a woman and it was a traditional, it was often one of the leaders was a, was a real list. and the other one was that most i have a principled fundamental as a now i think with bad luck and how back the bat. but we'll get 2 categories in the middle of now that a, uh, i think now they've kind of given up on that. now everyone's a eliano. yeah, the cleaning, so the realistic kind of taking over the pots. yeah, so that's part of this journey. they've been on the i want to bring in a sound bite from robert high back from the, from the candidate for john sled, where he joyce draws a connection between ross's invasion of ukraine and germany's relationship with china. and because in terms of the perspective on china is a green civil,

so being pretty who ok so, so let's listen to this in just one second. and the context is this was how big was in delhi in india. and speaking to bureau chief for the time, i'm going to cima. and you will hear the sounds of a parking delhi in the background your to russians. i'm presented aggressively. wall on ukraine, freely on to paying for lessons being dependent on your one country. in this case and energy methods can be dangerous, and to re half an hour to face that we have a strong wind dependency on goods from china or to the trades market to china. it's very, very big. um, that's all, it's okay to have a big partnership with china and you're also has one, but being dependent on one is not so good. so the searching for a new partner doesn't vacation, just the keyboard. yeah, diversification is the keywords. so there's been a really big debate that's been kind of emerging over the last few years in germany about whether the problems that it had with russia that it was excessively

dependent on, on russian fossil energy. it could be replicated with its dependence on business ties with china, both as a country that imports crucial things from and as a country that 8 exports huge amounts of cost to of what would happen if china decided to attack taiwan, which is a scenario that, that is considered it's, you know, really quite credible. so as you walk us through that position on that, yes, i think against it it falls under the sort of umbrella of the greens, the greens values. again, china is not a democratic states and of the greens trying to also lead with a value base foreign policy value base policies. so they are, i think, as trying to find a different, difficult balance between germany's interests and economic interests and strategic

interests and values that they want to try to defend. and we've seen that the, the greens and therefore administer on a bad book, but also their economy minister, how big has been, you know, trying to walk this, this line, the, the foreign ministry on their bell book has also contributed to, to germany's new china strategy that has been published over during this current government where a lot is based on seeing china as competition and a partner at the same time. but stressing more of the competition factor and, and a lot of the, the, the hope and the work that they want to put into is trying to sort of the risk from china. it's a lot about the risk. yeah. and so they, they kind of follow this thinking they often go from the bike ministration to the world is kind of dividing between democracies and also retiree into ends. the going to very much on the side of the democracies and, and the lead to babylon. the foreign minister even did want to refer to she didn't

ping the chinese president as a dictator didn't, she was got got an angry reaction from the chinese. the chinese certainly do not like the green policy. ben, you know, where, you know, how important is this to the, to the current green parties. we know it now did this kind of ideas that we are kind of soldiers for democracy. well, i think it's basically every german foreign minister or economy minister who travels to china is under like a lot of pressure from domestically and especially the, even more so than the, from the greens to at least say something about human rights. or at least like at least a sound bite out while here in the press conference i, i talk to the presidents of china about human rights. and that was like, that's always like part of the, the, the, the, the, i think. so i think that box has things like that. i think there's very much, some pressure from her in pots in from the general public. and so,

so it says x. yeah, yeah. so let's go through some of the other issues because we've been talking a lot about this kind of defense and the framing of this sort of hopelessness of the potty. but there are other issues that way, you know, you don't see quite talk to johnny for instance, climate change jeremy. this is being a very crucial issue for a long time dating back to you know, the days when climate change kind of gone onto the radar of the world. him. yes. and it started with the anti nuclear power protests and, and it continued. it's one of the few parties that regularly also addresses nature and the environment and protection of speech sees and habitats. it's something that you don't necessarily always hear and debates and rallies, but yeah, climate, obviously they're called the greens climate is one of their big topics. and in a way they have sort of, they moved away from the sort of hip be,

we want the growth, we don't want the industry big industry kind of volume that you had at the beginning. and now they're more of a, let's say, institutionalized the parties supporting the basically green transformation. they weren't to transform the german economy in german industry in a way that allows it to be climate neutral, but also still strong and successful. yeah. so, so, i mean, yeah, and you see that in the pudgy program, you know, this title that they have kind of grow to get, you know, so, so it's probably about kind of bringing society together. but it's also about economic growth because the german economy has been suffering. so it's what state the, the economic angle on climate change that they have. well that we can, so it kind of invest our way out of troubles is the idea of i think that they, that they really and i think with the hobbits, especially because he's also the economy minister that is the, that, that, that he's under a lot of pressure in this election campaign, to show that he's inside the, gro, was because, you know,

the image of an economy isn't there. yeah, well, and i think every time he gets interviewed and every time he gets analyzed on tv and i say, oh, but what did he say about growth? what is he going to do about the help the economy? and i think that is, is basically not realistic. so the green party out of the no meant to still be talking about, you know, we need to provide basically the emotions by just showing everything down like we have to do, we have to serve, invest that way out of it. yes. and there's an angle of days that you know, they talk about needing to borrow money as well in order to invest in the kind of infrastructure that you need to go green to fight climate change. and this is politically, you know, a pretty sensitive area in germany, this idea. so this is this thing that, that some of this and this will of how to code the debt break, which is in try and in the german constitution which, which places very right strict limits on how much the german government can borrow

. sure. yet the green say this has to be reformed. yes, they say this has to be reformed. they say that germany has to be able to take on more that for investment purposes there. we've heard it from havoc many times the money that is taken as that has to be spent on investment, obviously for the greens in particular on investment in green initiative initiatives, green transformation. and we see we've among the german public. it's pretty much split. 5050, almost between those who want reform and those who want to, you know, keep that, that break going. but it is an issue where we've seen also openings from the social democrats for reform, in part also from the conservative seed you. so this is going to be a topic that's we're going to be discussing. i mean, the next government is going to have to deal with that company in some way. another issue that i want to talk about is migration, which is a very, very kind of present issue in the, in the selection campaign. been the greens of traditionally being one of the

parties. it's a most open to migration, but they even, they have been kind of on the political pressure to move to the right to them that yeah, yeah, i mean, why would he, they, were they, were they already moved to the in government? i think if you asked me because they that they didn't seltz's government and has become more and more draconian on integration in the green parts and kept verging for him. and now in the they've come up with this 8 point plan which became a 10 point on following the attack. and i saw some bug with a callback doing it like a social media video where he kind of explained jess, we're going to a increased deportations. we're going to make sure that the restaurants will be carried out quicker. we're going to include, i think, i believe a psychological tests in, in medical tests are like when new immigrants arrived, there will also be like

a psychological element of the test. so you can and, and, and this is, yeah, and uh, i think a lot of the green party members have a big problem with this. i mean this is like they, they, if it isn't it's and that's what i think they were quite recently my. they were really criticizing projects. so. um yeah, lucy, so when you were starting to that attacking the south book as being the space of killings in germany as much as when the people who were meant to be deposited from germany who had no right to to be here. all the suspects in those incidents and that is really put a hot flame under the selection campaign about how whether dominique needs to toughen is whole approach to migration. um, so let's wrap up the section on the positions of the greens issues yet. we've had, they've been on quite a johnny not in terms of defense also in terms of migration and some other areas have the green voters kind of come with them or on that journey or have they

kind of moved into a slightly different section of society. well, some have come along, some have left. we've talked to spoken about the difference between the hours in the fundies and i think the more realistic voters, the more sense centrist voters have come along on this journey as the party has moved more towards the center. the more left leaning from the mental is a value base members have probably slowly left, but we can see from the poles that it looks like the greens have managed to really cultivate and to maintain this base of, of, of a voter group that continues to support them while they stay in government while they enter government and it's actually quite stable of a group, if you look at the polls and this group is pretty up and then for the prosper us, what, how would you characterize the, the sort of the, the average greenville hotel yeah, yeah, i yeah,

definitely live in big cities. the definitely more academics i the james cool academic is particularly things you know has to and yeah, i wouldn't say that there the, there were particularly radicals though. right? yeah, i don't think so. let's look ahead a to the election coming up very soon. the polls been the greens have been kind of in the range between was 13 and 15 percent, which puts them in a 3rd or 4th place. is that right? mm hm. yeah, that's sort of net connect with the cd with the social democrats. yeah. um, yeah, i mean it's going to be very interesting because the, i think, as, as things stand, the c d u is going to have a choice. i, who's that going to do a coalition with a new can so season a, everyone's kind of buying for a position in the negotiations afterwards. and i think that the, the migration con, this 8 point on the hobbit came up with was the,

it was seen by some as an overcharged. so it was, we've been reaching out to the christian democrats. yeah. i mean, just before we took a been a bit more in detail about coalitions. julia, do you think it's how much cope do they have to climb beyond that? 15 percent mocking. mean if they, you know, that as then just mentioned, that kind of, you know, vying for the, with the social democrats for the 4th place. did they have a chance of pulling farther ahead of them? or is or is this is probably as a good is that going to get i think that sort of the around 15 percent represents that voter base that they have. that is going to vote for the greens no matter what . and it seems like from the polls this year, that's all they're going to get a 2021. they were pulling really high a couple of months before the elections, up to 25 percent. and they ended up with 14.8. and i think that's pretty much where they're going to land and it's kind of exploiting the potential that they have right now. yeah. so looking at potential coalitions. so then you are just saying so,

so the cd you are going to be that's the conservative party. they're almost certainly going to be in the 1st place quite, quite far ahead of the others, the f d. the far right party coming in and 2nd likely, but nobody wants to do joining collection with them. so it's really for, for the conservatives, it's either the social democrats or the greens. what with the conservatives prefer? do you think? probably the social democrats, i mean that's if you want, if you believe what features matt scapes saying, i think that a lot of the see to you. and i think a lot of the that this of the right wing part of the gen physical inspection generally sees the green ties of please, and those are sort of this we need. so we need to stay as far away from them as possible because they represent, you know, color bikes and, and editors and, and the heating law. that was really the system that i think the, the, the, all the, the. so if you listen to you, i mean the ftp we mentioned before,

i believe he, he almost won, it's his own party to declare that they would never enter the coalition with the, with the greens ever again. and i think the, i think the is going to be a bit of a problem because the futures mass is going to be easier for him to sell a coalition with the sd and it will. so it with the greens. yeah. and you, it's, it's funny, isn't it that the green party it does attract, you know, quite a lot of anger. yeah. um. well, ben was just describing that this sense of a sort of elite ism headed in the clouds. we kind of touched on that a few times and that's despite the fact that they've kind of been on this, you know, they aren't as radical as they want as well. how to explain that? i think it's you, you see it at the rallies, the kind of people who go to the rallies like obviously there are people who are interested in politics and quite interested in the greens otherwise you wouldn't spend your saturday evening going to listen to all but topic but it's a, it's, it's urbanites educated, well educated,

quite white's upper middle class. people kind of work as well. yeah. i guess they say the well, criticized by the far right. is kind of work. yeah. yes. and for the last 2 years, the greens have tried to turn themselves into a party of the center, a party for the center of society. and i don't think they're able to, they haven't gotten there yet, and i haven't quite correct why exactly. they're not managing because they have focus and this election campaign more on making life more affordable. if you look at their policies, there's some of their, one of the parties that would make it, that would benefit to the most, the, the, the poor is people in, in, in the country. so their policies sort of reflect this, this didn't reaching out that they're trying to do to different parts of society. but it's not really reflecting in, in the polls and then there's supporters. yeah. so there is still quite a cultural divide between the what we hear about the green set and the conservative

. so mean, let's flip it, right. as you said, the conservatives would rather go with the social democrats, with the greens, be totally happy to go with the conservatives, which is pretty much the only option they would have. well, i mean slightly to contradict what i said before the they have beating in government with the consent with the conservatives and separately driven states and underneath the regional level. yeah. and there are desperately leading members of the see to you who are quite happy to gardens of colors know that the developers of the, the so much of a low, moderate conservatives who are like, who, who actually quite light degrees. i think especially in the op ex home state, and so that helps time why they were in government where he was in government with it, with a conservative leader. okay, let's end with a quick prediction from both of you. start with the brand and then come to julia. a of the greens going to be in government also dislikes? no, no. mm. yes, julia,

i don't like making predictions. i say they have a decent chance, but you know, anything can happen and think about what it truly can. so i'm going to side step that predicts him by just ending his focus now and to say thank you very much for listening on any posts, provide or watching on youtube. do leave us a comment on youtube if you'll checking us out there and do of course uh, check out our volume briefing, newsletter on dw dot com. that's a great weekly round up of news from germany. so do sign up. and ben is often an old roof that newsletter, so he would be very happy to have you on his meeting list. and i also want to mention the from the munich security conference, we will have a couple of special episodes. so you will see some extra episodes coming up in your feet, so do check them out. cuz that is a very big moment here in germany and for all of the discussions about with the

ukraine. war goes next. okay, thanks very much for being with us on the spelling briefings. so you next time the this is the w news line from berlin, ukraine's president of a lot of here's a landscape prepares to media us vice president ged vance, here in germany with a warning. any peace deal to end the ukraine war need to involve cave and europe, but will the us listen? 30 people are injured some severely after and i've got national drive who's car into a proud and munich. the latest in a series of suspected turbo tax in germany influencing the election campaign you as president donald trump says he's drawing up plans for a reciprocal terrace on every country that treat.