in the world, all too often silence in the face of tragedy. con empire of silence starts february 15th on dw, the okay spelling briefing time. and today we're going to get you briefed on the green party here in germany, deaf fighting to stay in government offices. this month, selections, 1st of all, we're going to be digging into that belief and that pretty extraordinary journey from peace movement hippies of the 1980s to defense hawks today. then we'll talk about the candidate for chancellor robert hall back a man who's adored by some and profit hate sake of others. and finally, we'll look ahead with some predictions of whether the greens will make it back into power. i'm here with julia, so deli and ben. nice and both of them have followed the greens closely over the years. so it's great to have you both here. so let's get started and i think i want

to start with a kind of a little bit of time travel. let's go back set the scene. we're in the 19, early 19 eighties, west germany. a new party comes onto the scene. how does it will get started been? well, i think it's quite easy to figure out now because let's have a stablished as a government pots a. and then it was already meetings in government and several states in germany. it's that they, they started out as this of a collection of friends groups, essentially who were like, protestors, processes all over the west germany. they were like dates, especially from the anti nuclear power movement. and they saw a co, a less than 2 apache in the early eighty's, and it became so yeah, and they, and they really established themselves. and that was a very much a kind of, almost almost essentially spots a off government. yeah. it's a, it's a really amazing journey. they be known as naturally so. so give a feel for the vibe. yeah. like ben was saying, i mean, it's a bit sort of to be,

i mean, we're in the depths of the cold war still on the final decade, really of the cold war. and, you know, opposing nuclear power, for instance, was a major part of their platform. but they quickly, despite those kind of crusty kind of routes, they go into into parliament, fos, didn't they? yes, it took them basically 3 years from their founding and of, of the party in 1980 to entering parliament and 1983. and there, there's this, these famous pictures of us go fish, a, one of the big figures of the party who was sworn in a wearing a nike white. and nike sneakers, this kind of like a conic representing how these, these, these new a partly radical, just different kinds of people entering parliaments. they weren't wearing suits, they were wearing like worn sweaters and sneakers. and it was kind of a breath of fresh air and away in the sort of german political environment. but they, i think they sort of quickly adapted to parliamentary, live,

to the political life in germany. and it didn't take them that much to actually then, you know, and through governments. yeah. so, so yeah, let, let's move a little bit further along the timeline. yeah. to the late 19 ninety's. and i brought along that uh that program for the the federal election in 1998. and this was the election where they went from being an opposition force to that she might have to get into a government into a coalition with the social democrats at the time. and yeah, so i bought in part of that pass that party program. and this quote included is to have x so, so that means like, so the green is the change. it sounds a little bit so the poetic yet, and i'm going to transfer, i'm gonna, i'm going to translation of, of one of the lines in that talking about nato and defense. just to give you a feel of what kind of a punch it was at that point. so it says, quote from the party program, the long term anti military strategy of the greens,

the aims to dissolve military alliances and national armies into a pan europe and peace and security order. it must replace nature and enable comprehensive disarmament and stripping the power of the military industrial complex. so ben, this late ninety's, i mean with well beyond the end of the cold war here, that's quite, it's pretty strong stuff, basically get rid of nato and this, um, yeah, i mean, i do wonder what happened. so, but i mean, where, where are those that are that part of the policy program has gone recently and is, and it's quite noticeable as well because very, very strongly passive vista. 19 nights are and especially in east germany, they have, or mostly they have a few votes as now. and i think a lot of that stuff out on c, nato sense and then has of co last around the b s. w. that business on american connection. yeah, there's kind of those, those barriers have gotten that all the less policy as well and i'll just kind of

potty to on the far left to of, of gentleman politics. but but yes so, so at that time juliet, that the green party went into that government in 1998, you know, finally and t militarist. yeah. but during the course of that government, they kind of had a bit of a baptism when it came to the use of military force, didn't they? yes. and this was a party whose members before, were, you know, they were famous pictures of them being water cannon by police because they were protesting against having us missile stations in western germany. so, you know, this is kind of where they were coming from. and during their 1st student and government quite soon and 1999 with a were in the balkans, yoshika fisher, who was the foreign minister. so the guy missed me because he just knew exactly. he was for a minister at the time in this coalition, and he was faced with the choice of whether germany would support a nato into mention against yugoslavia time,

which was mostly it was serbia and montenegro a in the cause of a war. so he, his government decided to support was intervention nato bombing in serbia to stop what was happening and close to what the time. and he did end up getting the support of his party to, to go ahead with this. it was a very controversial party congress. your scott fish a got a paint bomb thrown at him there it was, pink, red paint. but in the end, he managed to bring the party along with them. there were a lot of party members who were more sort of on the left in that case, who decided to leave the party after this decision. but i think the sort of marks of turning point for the party where they're sort of enter the realm of play on politic and where they, you know, take a decision that moves in away from, from their origins. yeah. and deal with them sort of embracing to some extent this idea of liberal intervention isn't me. yeah. which is sometimes talks about is this idea that,

that liberal lo progressive policies can justify the use of military force if it is in the name of, you know, preventing, atrocities, human rights abuses, something like that. but we should also mentioned that um, so did close some of his credibility back over the rack. was that and because the biggest, the other obviously against the of that coordinate and those are starting to see why the fish are confronted colin powell of the washing purpose of my sis options. so that kind of thing. they did kind of go back to the yeah. yeah, and, and there was a famous scene when he was of the munich security conference where, where he says, i think to donald rumsfeld, wasn't it on that occasion? you know, we are not convinced by your arguments for the iraq war. yeah. so on the one hand, you know, in favor of liberal military intervention, when human rights are at stake, but against an invasion that they, so as a legal, under international law. and that was in the case of the iraq war. okay. so that's,

that's part of the journey that they be not. let's 1st fluid again back to now 2025 and the party program that the green. so put out this year which is called suzanne and vax and so kind of to get the grow. what sort of grow together, basically in english, what order and this time around what they say about nato is very different. just remember what we just heard from 1998, talking about replacing nato and an antique military strategy. all right, let's see what they saying. now, we stand by our nato alliance commitments and the necessary expansion of our military capabilities piece, dumont's reliable funding with a defense budget that invests significantly more than 2 percent of gross domestic product. so we've gone from one thing to dismantle the military and dismantle nato, to strengthening nato, and increasing spending all defense. and in fact,

robot how back the candidate for johnson at this time signature we, he's up to 3.5 percent of g d p military spending. yeah, i think of it all of this. this also fits into the context of, you know, why they are now pushing for strengthening the military, strengthening nato. and it all sort of changed again with a rushes invasion of ukraine. this is seen by the greens as is the biggest violation of international law that there is violating the sovereignty of a sovereign state. and with the head of russia loving me and putting currently seeing as a dictator and someone who doesn't respect human rights. and these are values that are still very important for the green party. and so for them it's also on the one hand issue of defending sovereign state ukraine. democracy. but also stopping a leader that has seen as victoria autocratic and going against a lot of the,

the values up the green stand for. yeah. so from that point of view, i mean the greens would argue that is absolutely coherent with previous positions. you know, they went into the balkans to protect people. they objected to the rock for because it was a breach of international law. and they very much object to the invasion of ukraine because that is in that rise and even more gross violation of international law. yeah, the question is whether the voters have gone with them. expose this is where the germans takes to agree with the same party and yeah, and well, let's get to that. but robert hop back so it him personally, but the potty is a whole. what does it fit in the spectrum of parties in terms of its position on the, on the triangle is pretty, it's very much at the sort of hawkish end of the spectrum. right? yeah, apparently, yeah. i mean, that was interesting. is that because they always used to be within the green, katia kind of division between what were called the outlaws and the fundies as of the religious and the fundamental this. yeah, so they, i listen for these,

and this was, this really was the kind of, i did a division with the party that, that really overshadowed on measure everything for the 1st couple of decades. yeah . yeah. and then whenever they, because they have this principle of having always having 2 leaders and who is the mind and a woman and it was a, traditionally, it was often, one of the leaders was a, was a realist. and the other one was that all i have a principal, some demented as a now i think with bad luck and how back the bedbug will get 2 categories in the middle of the how that a uh i think now they've kind of given up on that now everyone's a eliano. yeah. so the realistic kind of taking over the pots. yeah, so that's part of this journey. they've been on the i want to bring in a sound bite from robert high back from the uh, from the candidate for john sa, where he joyce draws a connection between ross's invasion of ukraine and germany's relationship with china. and because in terms of the perspective on china is a green civil,

so being pretty who. ok so, so let's listen to this in just one second. and the context is, this was uh, how big was in delhi in india, and speaking to a bureau chief at the time i'm at at t mac. and you will hear the sounds of a parking delhi in the background. you're to russians. i'm president of aggressive wall on ukraine, feeling the painful lesson being dependent on what you've on country in this case on energy methods, can be dangerous. and to re half an hour to face that we have a strong wind dependency on goods from china or to the trademark into china. it's very, very big. and that's all, it's okay to have a big partnership with china and you're also has one, but being dependent on one is not so good. so the searching for a new pop, nice dev us invitation is the key word. yeah, diversification is the keywords. so there's been a really big debate that's been kind of emerging over the last few years in germany about whether the problems that it had with russia that it was excessively

dependent on, on russian fossil energy. it could be replicated with its dependence on business ties with china, both as a country that imports crucial things from and as a country that 8 exports huge amounts of cost to of what would happen if china decided to attack taiwan, which is a scenario that, that is considered it's, you know, really quite credible. so as you walk us through that position on that, yes, i think against it it falls under the sort of umbrella of the greens, the greens values. again, china is not a democratic states, and i of the greens tried to also lead with a value based foreign policy value based policy. so they are, i think, of trying to find a different, difficult balance between germany's interest and economic interest and strategic

interest and values. that they want to try to defend, and we've seen that the, the, the greens and therefore administer and having a bad book. but also their economy minister. how big have been, you know, trying to walk this, this line, the, the foreign ministry on their babel. because also contributed to, to germany's new china strategy that has been published over and during this current government where a lot is based on seeing china as competition and a partner at the same time. but stressing more of the competition factor and, and a lot of the, the, the hope and the work that they want to put into is trying to sort of the risk from china. it's a lot about the risk. yeah. and so they, they kind of follow this thing, can be off and go from the bike ministration to the world. is kind of dividing between democracies and also retiree. and to add to the greens of very much on the side of the democracies. and lena bab, up the foreign minister even did once refer to she didn't ping the chinese

president as a dictator, didn't she? we've got got an angry reaction from the chinese. the chinese certainly do not like the green policy. ben, you know, where, you know, how important is this to the, to the current green parties. we know it now did this kind of ideas. we are kind of soldiers for democracy. well, i think it's basically every german foreign minister, or economy minister. he travels to china, it is under like a lot of pressure from domestically and especially the, even more so than the, from the greens to at least say something about human rights. or at least like at least get a sound bite out while here in the press conference i, i talk to the presidents of china about human rights and that is like, it is always like part of the, the, the, the, the, i think. so i think that box has things like that. i think it's very much some pressure from our in pots in from the general public and this up to it says x. yeah

. yeah. so let's go through some of the other issues because we've been talking a lot about this kind of defense and framing at this of the whole christmas of the party. but there are other issues that way, you know, you don't see quite talk to johnny for instance, climate change jeremy. this is being a very crucial issue for a long time dating back to you know, the days when climate change kind of gone onto the radar of the world. him. yes. and it started with the anti nuclear power protests and, and it continued. it's one of the few parties that regularly also addresses nature and the environment and protection of speech sees and habitats. it's something that you don't necessarily always hear and debates and rallies, but yeah, climate and obviously they're called the greens climate is one of their big topics . and in a way they have sort of, they moved away from the sort of hip be we want the growth,

we don't want the industry, big industry kind of vibe that you had at the beginning. and now they're more of a, let's say, institutionalized the parties supporting the basically green transformation. they want to transform the german economy in german industry in a way that allows it to be climate neutral, but also still strong and successful. yeah. so, so, i mean, you see that in the pudgy program, you know, this title that they have kind of grow to get, you know, so, so it's probably about kind of bringing society together. but it's also about economic growth because the german economy is being suffering. so it's what state the, the economic angle on climate change that they have. well that we can, so it kind of invest our way out of troubles is the idea of i think that they, that they really or, and i think with the habits, especially because he's also economy administer. that is the, that, that, that he's under a lot of pressure and they said election campaign to show that he's inside the gross because, you know, the image of an economy isn't there yet. well,

and i think every time you just interviewed and every time you get analyze on tv, they say, oh, but what did you say about growth? what is he going to do about the hope, the economy? and i think that this is basically not realistic. so the green tati out at the moment to still be talking about, you know, we need to radically the emotions by just showing everything down like we have to do. we have to serve, invest a way out of it. yes. and there's an angle of days that you know, they talk about needing to borrow money as well in order to invest in the kind of infrastructure that you need to go green to fight climate change. and this is politically, you know, a pretty sensitive area in germany, this idea. so this is this thing that some of this and this will of how to code the debt break, which is in find in the german constitution which, which places very right strict limits on how much the german government can borrow

. sure. yet the green say this has to be reformed. yes, they say this has to be reformed. they say that germany has to be able to take on more that for investment purposes there. we've heard it from havoc many times the money that is taken as the has to be spent on investment, obviously for the greens in particular on investment in the green initiative initiatives green transformation. and we see it with a longer german public. it's pretty much splits 5050, almost between those who want reform and those who want to, you know, keep that, that break going. but it is an issue where we've seen also openings from the social democrats for reform, in part also from the conservative see due to this is going to be a topic that's we're going to be discussing. i mean, the next government is going to have to deal with that in some way. another issue that i want to talk about is migration, which is a very, very kind of present issue in the, in this election campaign been the greens of traditionally being one of the parties

. it's a most open to migration, but they even, they have been kind of on the political pressure to move to the rights on that. yeah. yeah, i mean, what was the, they, were they were they already moved to the in government. i think if you asked me because they that they didn't seltz's government and that's become more and more draconian on integration and the green carts and kept verging for him. and now in the they've come up with this 8 point plan which became a 10 point on the following the attack. and i saw some bug with a callback doing a like a social media video where he kind of explained jess, we're going to a increased deportations. we're going to make sure that the rest appointments will be carried out quickly. we're going to include, i think, i believe a psychological tests in, in united cool tests are like when new immigrants arrived,

but that will also be like a psychological element of the test. so you can and, and, and this is, yeah, and uh, i think a lot of the green party members have a big problem with this. i mean this is like they, they, if it was an open data, i think they were quite recent name or they were really criticizing. call back. so . um, yeah, we'll see it. so where are you referring to that attacking the book as being the space of killing same germany as much as when the people who were meant to be deposited from germany who had no right to to be here. all the suspects in those incidents. and that is really put a hot flame under the selection campaign about how whether germany needs to tell from this whole approach to migration. um, so let's wrap up the section on the positions of the greens issues the we've had, they've been on quite a johnny not in terms of defense also in terms of migration and some other areas have the green voters kind of come with them or on that journey or have they

kind of moved into a slightly different section of society? well, some have come along, some have left. we've talked to spoken about the difference between the hours and the fundies. and i think the more realistic voters, the more sense centrist voters have come along on this journey as the party has moved more towards the center, the more left leaning from the mental is value based members have probably slowly left, but we can see from the poles that it looks like the greens have managed to really cultivate and to maintain this base of, of, of a vote or group that continues to support them while they stay in government. why they enter government and it's actually quite stable of a group. if you look at the polls and this group is pretty up and then for the prosper us, well, how would you characterize the, the sort of the parent, the average greenville hotel. yeah. yeah. i yeah, definitely living in big cities,

the definitely more academics i've also been james, co academic is particularly busy, didn't hesitate. and yeah, i wouldn't say that there the, there were particularly radicals though. right? yeah. i don't think that's look ahead a to the election coming up very soon. the polls been the greens have been kind of in the range between was 13 and 15 percent, which puts them in a 3rd or 4th place. is that right? yeah, that's sort of net connect with the cd with the social democrats. yeah. um, yeah, i mean it's going to be very interesting because the, i think, as, as things stand, the c d u is going to have a choice. i, who's that going to do a coalition with a new can so season a everyone kind of buying for a position in the negotiations afterwards. and i think that the, the migration con, this 8 point on the hobbit came up with was the,

it was seen by some as an overture or 2 words induced mats and the christian democrats. yeah. i mean, just before we took a been a bit more in detail about coalitions. julia, do you think it's how much cope do they have to climb beyond that? 15 percent mocking. mean if they, you know, as ben just mentioned, that kind of, you know, vying for the, with the social democrats for the 4th place. did they have a chance of pulling farther ahead of them? or is or is this is probably as a good is that going to get i think that sort of the around 15 percent represents that voter base that they have. that is going to vote for the greens no matter what . and it seems like from the polls this year, that's all they're going to get a 2021. they were pulling really high a couple of months before the election is up to 25 percent and they ended up with 14.8. and i think that's pretty much where they're going to land and it's kind of exploiting the potential that they have right now. yeah. so looking at potential

coalitions. so then you are just saying so, so the cd you are going to be that's the conservative party. they're almost certainly going to be in the 1st place quite, quite far ahead of the others, the f d the, the far right party coming in and 2nd likely, but nobody wants to do joining collection with them. so it's really for, for the conservatives, it's either social democrats or the greens. what would the conservatives prefer to think? probably the social democrats, i mean, that's if you want, if you believe what features matt scapes saying, i think that a lot of the see to you. and i think a lot of the that as of the right wing part of the physical inspection generally sees the green ties of please. and as a sort of visit, we need somebody to stay as far away from them as possible because they represent, you know, conquered bikes and, and editors and, and the heating law that was, are the lead system that i think the, the, the, all the, the so if you listen to, i mean the ftp we mentioned before, i believe he,

he almost won. it's his own party to declare that they would never did and sort of coalition with the, with the greens ever again. i think the, i think the is going to be a bit of a problem because the, some of the features mass is going to be easier for him to sell a coalition with the sd and it will. so it with the greens on. yeah. and you, it's, it's funny, isn't it, that the green party it does attract, you know, quite a lot of anger. yeah. what ben was just describing that this sense of a sort of elite ism headed in the clouds. we kind of touched on that a few times and that's despite the fact that they've kind of been on this, you know, they aren't as radical as they wants. well, how to explain that? i think it's you, you see it at the rallies, the kind of people who go to the rallies like obviously there are people who are interested in politics and quite interested in the greens otherwise you wouldn't spend your saturday evening going to listen to help a topic but it's a, it's, it's urbanites educated, well educated,

quite white upper middle class. people kind of work as well. yeah. i guess they say the well, criticized by the far right. is kind of work. yeah. yes. and for the last 2 years, the greens have tried to turn themselves into a party of the center, a party for the center of society. and i don't think they're able to, they haven't gotten there yet, and i haven't quite correct why exactly. they're not managing because they have focus in this election campaign more on making life more affordable. if you look at their policies, there's some of their, one of the parties that would make it, that would benefit the most, the, the, the poor as people in, in, in the country. so their policies sort of reflect this, this didn't reaching out that they're trying to do to different parts of society. but it's not really reflecting in the polls and then there's supporters. yeah. so there is still quite a cultural divide between the what we hear about the green set and the conservative

. so mean, let's flip it, right. as you said, the conservatives would rather go with the social democrats, with the greens, be totally happy to go with the conservatives, which is pretty much the only option they would have. well, i mean slightly to contradict what i said before the they have beating in government with the consent with the conservatives and several german states under the on the res regional level. yeah. and there are desperately leading members of the see to you who are quite happy to go into the colors. know that there are like the values of the, the so much of a low amount of conservatives who are like, it will cost me quite like the greens, i think, especially in the hobbits home state. and so that's, it helps time. why? but there wasn't government where he was in governments with it, with a conservative leader. okay. let's end with a quick predation from both of you. start with the band and then come to julia. the other greens going to be in government also dislikes notes. mm. yes.

julia, i don't like making predictions, i say they have a decent chance, but you know anything can happen and think about what it truly can. so i'm going to side step that predicts him by just ending this pole cause now and to say thank you very much for listening on any posts provider or watching on youtube. do leave us a comment on youtube if you'll checking us out there and do of course uh, check out our volume briefing, newsletter on dw dot com. that's a great weekly round up of news from germany. so do sign up. and ben is often an author of that newsletter, so he would be very happy to have you on his meeting list. and i also want to mention that from the munich security conference, we will have a couple of special episodes. so you will see some extra episodes coming up in your feet, so do check them out. cuz that is a very big moment here in germany and for all of the discussions about with the

ukraine for those next. okay, thanks very much for being with us on the spelling briefings. so you next time this is dw and who's coming to live from berlin, as meaning security conference gets underway, honeys grows over, present trumps radical new foreign policy. all lines will be on the speech by vice president, gd, events, expected outline americas change priorities in the world, including a plan for ukraine and trying to survive in ga. so people there say they're facing a new war as they struggle to find food and shelter in the devastated territory. the .