i'm looking for it. let's meet. volodymyr gordienko spent two days with a bullet in his heart getting to his brothers. one and a half mm was sent to the cavity of the heart. for several days, i didn't even believe that volodya was alive and rushing into battle again. glory to the heroes. glory to ukraine. i am anatoliy yarema and i are joining our conversation with the reacoina of the senior researcher of the eurasian center of the atlantic council e prialu i welcome you to the broadcast of the marathon single news you you are a recognized expert, you are a recognized expert in international security issues, add about security and let's talk, uh, on our broadcast today,

political scientist from the united states of america andriy piontkovskyi said that already today, ukraine and the united states should work on developing a new world order, which obviously has a requirement to have world issues of security, the fact that such a war happened, which is now going on for the third month in ukraine, shows that this world order, and in particular the organization, did not work, so let's to begin with, let's record what didn't work the most - the main flaws of this security and how to build it further well, first of all, i apologize that my ukrainian language is not enough хорошее this is the result of the policy of the soviet union, which in crimea liberated -he is a schoolboy from studying in ukrainian, that's why he will need a couple

of russians or english, which is better for you, if you understand ukrainian, i can speak ukrainian, you russian, i understand, but i don't speak i don't speak ukrainian so, what are the main things that did not work in the international security system that led to such a war, and above all, it was certainly clear a long time ago that the system of the organization of nations is not effective, especially because it is not effective because in russia, as a government, does not accept the cassavetes union and has the right to veto. well, even without the right of veto, we know that there are many countries, for

example, north korea, iran, and others violate international law both internally and legally . inside the human rights and eh outside supports terrorism a-a well, by the way, they say that the soviet union is also one of the er founders of the tolpophobinization of exchange nations er on the entire attraction of er its existence within the framework of the organization in 19 supported terrorism throughout the world in europe in the middle east latin america and so on. that is, this order did not work . second, only the europeans were hoping for the united states and did not want to spend money on modern weapons. the russians understood that

europeans as such are not very threatening, but you can say they are almost not threatening, but we can imagine everything. what is it today? it is permissible in the bundeswehr . there are only 200 modern leopard 2 tanks somewhere. order of 36 modern e-e communications of blood planes e-e that is they e-e what in english is called e-e who gets something for free in order to prevent the russian invasion and i emphasize the russian military policy aimed not only at the destruction of ukraine as an

independent state, we repeat, and russian policy is not directed at the annexation of any territories of the donbass, crimea, anything, it is directed, they talk about it openly sasha, it is directed at the destruction of ukraine as a state of ukrainians and at the change balance of power in europe and in the world for a minute, and think again that ukraine is only the beginning of a military operation that should change the schedule in the world and when colleague kiyankovsky says about changing the world order, i don't quite understand what he will discuss, he says that russia is trying to change the world order to its advantage, it will push america out of europe and

build a new russia, the next iteration, as scientists say, the next russian empire er, once upon a time, there was an empire of tsars, then it was an empire of the bolsheviks of red targets, then it was an empire of er, monarchists and tyrants, er, putin’s mistress, er, um, and er, anyway, that’s who said it, it seems . that we should not do about he talked about russia so that we don't do it, it turns out a kalashnikov assault rifle, damn, it turns out to be the cpsu, and that's what the cpsu wants to install with a kalashnikov assault rifle, it's obvious , and these things in ukraine seem to have already been understood by everyone who is in ukraine, if putin is allowed to continue, then in ukraine it won't er he won't stop yes but do er what do you think, is today, in the third month

of this war in europe, everyone is sufficiently aware of it no unfortunately er in europe it continues la-la-la oh how do you need them they must sell and buy oil and gas in russia trade with russia, the minister of economy of germany talks about this quite regularly , and other comrades in europe, in italy, for example, even mr. macron, who seems to understand that he will come to an agreement with putin in some way before putin suffers a military defeat, and putin does not think so far that he has suffered a final military defeat. it came to my head

uh, it's not a pity, you know, it's not a pity, eh, these children , eh, the boys who are sent to the war. well, who sends someone, so someone goes as a volunteer, a volunteer signs a contract to receive there , i don't know how much they receive 500 dollars for the fact that they will be killed a-a and this, of course, is also completely wild from a moral point of view. but it is a fact and it is also wild that very many people in russia support this, as they call a military operation, a war of aggression, a war of aggression against a ukraine is against the west and think for a minute. let they realize that everything that has been done in the last 30 years, eh, that gave a classy growth, eh, products per

capita, the standard of living, eh, never, eh, russians have never lived like that. it's good how they lived, eh, in the first 10 years of rule, i don't know oh my god, putin. but then something went wrong, and there was the crisis of the eighth year, after which there was not a person in general. in the 14th year, they went to georgia, and then in the 14th year, they captured the crimea, which was lying in a bad way, and already in the donbass, they received strong resistance, but again they believed that this would somehow not stop their expansion and the destruction of ukraine and now everything has gone as if there will be no return to what happened many, many years ago perhaps even the 10th anniversary may be even longer. there will be no

return. who from the life that was in russia ? they will have a falling standard of life. there will be a catastrophic lack of key components that they import. and they are returning in every way, but even today, these eyes are so crazy oil dollars, oil, euros, 1 billion euros, europe pays for russian oil in just one day, you tell me, are you also an expert on energy issues, is it possible to sacrifice general security for the sake of energy security? no, but until oil and russian coal are

completely replaced, they will receive this billion a day, despite the fact that the colossal discount goes to the ural brand, this is them at the price of which brand they sell now somewhere for 73 что время как бренд а-а бойный европейский бренды 110 верное i know that the american brand today wt eh-eh is 107 and the brand always trades higher eh-eh and eh -eh ne a huge discount of 30+%, read indians will continue to buy oil from them but where will europe go? i hope and believe that europe will be there within a year, they will somehow be able to rebalance, change the balance, they

have made catastrophic mistakes, especially germany, again, you refuse to develop nuclear energy and in er diversity of diversification gaza did not create and did not create a good strong otersel of renewable energy sources simply because technologically we are not there yet we have not reached the moment when er solar energy and wind energy can replace gas and nuclear energy, and it can add something, and ukraine was moving in this direction . we had successes and shortcomings

we are not talking about it now - the war changed everything , but germany, despite the fact that it spent 400 billion euros on this green economy, it could not replace what it tried to change, yes, thank you , mr. real, the change will be obvious sooner or later, but it will come at a high price in particular, at the cost of life, the lives of many ukrainians, ariel cohen, a senior researcher at the russian atlantic council, was with us live, and we continue under the chairmanship of the head of the office of the president of ukraine, andrii yarmak. a meeting of the presidium of the congress of local and regional authorities under the president of ukraine was held to fulfill the tasks of the head of state, a state system of humanitarian aid was created, details further, a state system of humanitarian

aid was created human help.gov.ua this system solves three main tasks in real time, first , it keeps records 100% of humanitarian aid brought into the territory of ukraine in terms of each individual declarant and recipient keeps records of needs for receiving and shipping humanitarian aid in the warehouses of 24 regions and the city of kyiv and keeps records of the receipt of humanitarian aid by territorial communities from all sources of income , the system also allows you to track exactly how the humanitarian aid got to the recipients by road or with the help of ukrzaliznytsia, as well as to record state costs for the logistics of humanitarian aid in ukraine with the help of the railway, today there are 79 physical warehouses and, accordingly, 79 warehouses, but we work not only

to improve accounting. our task is to maximize to speed up all the processes of passing customs control of humanitarian cargo for this purpose, again at the initiative of the president's office and the ministry of infrastructure in cooperation with other ministries and the state customs service, we did two things. first, we launched a refined system that allows border guards to check drivers in a matter of seconds. 18 - 60 years old who are allowed to go abroad for humanitarian aid and today we are launching declarations for the import of aid which will allow persons and organizations that send humanitarian goods must create customs declarations at the shipping stage, which will be stored in the customs system and will only require a signature on the documents printed by the customs officer when crossing the border. it is important that this system allows not

only to enter accounting and monitoring, but also to identify bottlenecks with which in the future it is necessary to work in response to organizations and bodies, for example, we see that only an average of 18% of the large volume of humanitarian aid is directed to regional military administrations the rest is received by charitable religious public and other organizations, respectively, to meet the needs of e-e regional military administrations can only count on a maximum of 18% of the entire victory to cross the border with ukraine and here there is a task in practice for the ministry of foreign affairs to cooperate at the embassy level with international projects by organizations and governments, another problem that was discovered thanks to the work of this system is not all of the humanitarian aid that, when crossing the border according to the customs declarations must go to the border military administrations, we get there and it is already a

task for the leadership of the military administrations , customs officers and the police to find out the reasons, the culprits must be brought to justice. thus, thanks to the coordinated work of the cabinet of ministers , the office of the president and the military administrations, we managed to launch a powerful tool in a very short time for work with humanitarian aid, which , by the way, will be used for accounting and monitoring even after the end of the war help from other countries of the world not only with food, hygiene and medicines, but also with building materials for the reconstruction of ukraine and further contact us e-e contact us oleg rybachuk head of the secretariat of the president of ukraine 2005-2006 mr. olezhe welcome to on the air of the marathon, please tell me, you often speak in front of international audiences, you were recently

in vilnius, lithuania, how do you explain to foreigners the reasons for what happened, the reasons for this war, in principle, unlike the beginning of the war, they already have very clear understanding of what happened and they already understand that it was not about any threats from the point of view of ukraine and joining nato, they perfectly understand that russia and in particular president putin are simply waging a war to destroy ukraine as such and the cause of such of russia's aggressive policy is that putin would like by the end of this year, because he is a great

symbolist, when there will be the centenary of the creation of the soviet union, the loss of which he considers a huge tragedy, the biggest tragedy he i would like to restore this russian empire within at least three of the main republics, because a very famous person here and in our country spoke about the fact that without ukraine the restoration of this empire is impossible, so we are talking about actually any at the price of ukraine's involvement in this project, which is actually crazy, but secondly, they understand that it is putin himself who said that this is an existential war, or in fact the model of a successful democratic ukraine is a mortal threat to the model that putin actually built in russia. therefore this is a war of democracy against autocracy and this is what we talked about from the very beginning, but now

from here it perfectly understands what you are talking about such a change in perception, let's say there is no need to explain the reasons, they already kind of understand if brothers the transformation of the attitude of the west towards this war, at first for many, even for representatives of the political community, it was a shock, then, er, there was such a position, almost at the edge of my house, because there was a fear of putin, so as not to invite this trouble to his own countries. now it seems already understood that the house on the edge will not work. so, even in these three months, such a transformation, i just marked a few main strokes. what do you think that could be changed over the years, now in three months, such a rapid transformation, what will happen next?

because in some countries they are still thought about the scale of this disaster and the scale of the threat, you are absolutely correct, you say, well, since it so happened that i flew to the united states for a conference , it is tentatively called the carl more club, which unites somewhere around 50 people with a large diplomatic international experience, and these are people from different fields from different countries, eh, i have been there for 20 years , eh, and regular participants of these meetings , we had just the first meeting at the beginning of the war , but today, not today, but there a couple of days ago. she took place and planned the next one for somewhere in september. and it turns out that during the year of the war, uh, this group met three times, although it is true

. european countries and neighbors of russia, those who know what it is like to do business with russia and scandinavians and germans and russians, there is a liberal position and a belarusian position, since vilnius was present, one thing is visible here that now they have understood and now for them it is not something like that e- it is unexpected that in fact the stakes in this war, which russia has constantly raised, that it is impossible to give slack. i have always told them that if you talk among yourselves about the fact that the provision of heavy heavy aircraft armament to ukraine may be perceived by putin as an escalation, then this you are not stupid, you are just telling putin to

do what you want, we will not annoy you so that you do not, god forbid, did not think that this is escala, now it is about what they, well, after the conference in germany, rammstein, they understand perfectly that any game the game to raise rates, they give an adequate answer to two - two examples, the british said for the first time , the british said that in the case of russia's use of biological, chemical, or, god forbid, practically nuclear weapons, they will immediately give an answer that is not coordinated with anyone, and it is nonsense a very interesting bill has appeared in the congress of the united states that in the event that, again, if russia continues this escalation and tries to use, or will god use people again, chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons of mass destruction on any scale, then the united states has introduced a bill that allows the president

of the united states to use in the army of the united states in ukraine's struggle for independence, that is, what we could only dream about, that the american army, in the event of an escalation of the war, would fight side by side with ukrainian with its entire structure, it's just nothing, and i remember that we couldn't even dream that the world could so resolutely stand by and not be afraid of escalation and the use of nuclear weapons. well, you remember what they were talking about at every step there is still there very recently, well, we remember very well when they asked to close the sky, what was the reaction, it is obvious that you are talking about this, i want to ask you one more thing, uh, western leaders listen very much to their voters, and from the point of view of an average voter, even psychology e-e through for a certain time, fatigue sets in with the information

that comes from ukraine. if the western voter is silent on this issue, it is obvious that western leaders will also react to this, how to make sure that this does not happen . today well, ukrainian diplomacy here is doing simply amazing things, it must be admitted that we , er, turned out to have come to this war with a very combat-capable ukrainian army and an equally powerful combat-capable army of ukrainian diplomats. because ukrainian diplomacy has finally become undiplomatic, it has become toothy, don’t you agree? it’s not just toothy, but it delivers very precise blows like artillerymen, which are calculated, including, to influence the public opinion of those countries where our diplomats work, and it has results, first of all

, in our country. there was a whole session at the karl belt a international conference, which specifically considered the options that you said about the fact that, especially in the fall, this unheard-of unity and the west of the world may come under certain blows to the strength because in addition to time, as you said, there will simply be such banal things as now spring, summer is warmer , problems with gas, because we are talking about energy and oil, energy and parasitic blockade, russia believes that it hopes that it will somehow make it to autumn, and there they say before the frosts and we will see why this europe is still there to put us on our knees as how the russians thought about ukraine because of that

. beautiful awareness that if this time putin and his clique come out of that situation not unpunished if it's just possible, it means it's been done before and the russians are trying to avoid a truce . let's let it be, let's talk about some terms of the truce here , evil is not punished here, it becomes so much more terrible, and it is very visible during the last years of independence, when first georgia, well, we know this story, then crimea, then part of ukraine with in the 14th year, the 15th year, this is also an unpunished evil , that is, i am talking about this and then an unpunished evil , the scale of its recovery is many times greater

, because now the russian federation is already saying that this is a war not from ukraine, that this is a war, a sign with the whole world. is it a war of different systems of different ideologies? the democratic world has understood this . and that is why they are preparing to punish this evil. we are talking about bringing the leadership of such a large and diverse country as russia with nuclear weapons to criminal proceedings for the first time. responsibility, all these things are documented, and it is about the fact that russia will not simply be defeated, and they are certain that everything will be inevitable soon , and that the leadership of this country, which has led to this remarkable situation, must necessarily go through the court as military crimes against humanity and, in particular, genetic crimes, we know that the hyped-up states are considering a law to recognize russia and ukraine as a sponsor of terrorism, and this

will lead to no consequences , and that is why the world is aware of it and it is possible so that it would not be like before. when a certain time passes, everything is forgotten and business starts again as usual, and you say that it is doing everything possible. and you are sure of this because there is such an institution that, well, even the osce took observers and created them from the east ukraine and everything and everything came together. well, it’s all very relative when i just remember the weakness of the west at the beginning of the war. and this is not the first time, because i was at the western conferences when crimea was taken there and when the russian spring was walking around the country when nato was simply scared, it was obvious the confusion of the west, they were sure that putin would do whatever he wanted with ukraine, they told me to my face

that he wanted to let us elect a president, but where would he go? wherever he wanted, he would go. it was the spring of 2014, a few weeks before the presidential elections, they were absolutely sure that nothing will stop putin, now it is simply a completely different situation, but they are also analyzing their structures, there were many conversations about the need to review how the european union and nato function in general and, in particular, what to do with countries such as hungary, which are trying to single-handedly paralyze the decision-making process, which threaten to veto any decision related to the margin or other sanctions according to russia, what to do with such countries , because they have the advantage of democracy, having from the european court of nato all the benefits actually oppose and and and and add