6:30 blessed citizens of russia, the number is to come, the solution is the marathon, the only news is that we are talking about the lessons of history that we have learned, and our neighbors, the russians, have decided to repeat, this is what we can repeat, which they shouted, how can we repeat about the victory, it turned out that we can repeat it about the murders, it is about the shootings rape about the destruction of peaceful cities, this is what they were able to repeat , and our task now is to stop and win and not let them repeat it, russia is now fighting for the past, but ukraine is for the future, so british journalists think writer peter pomerantsev, together with our colleague angelina koryakina, they talked about how the kremlin is

planting old soviet narratives in the occupied territories, in particular, an exclusive interview, see more greetings today we are talking to british journalist and writer, as well as researcher peter pomerantsev and peter greetings thank you for visiting i will start with the question about may 9, in fact, on this day, many of us are thinking about the meaning of this day and the meanings with which russia filled it with its actions, what russia did or this does not mean that she herself contributed to the decommunization of this soviet holiday, well , the great one for the former, for the former soviet countries once a-a with her actions. a very strange role in such psychological propaganda of the

kremlin, uh, russia is a very sick country, yes, a country where, in principle, no one talks about everything, internal trauma, absenteeism, lagoons, museums, now the memorial has been closed, and they don’t even talk about разные имперский разные грутилизации against from the monks or er people championship of ukrainian tatars and so on all this is hushed up and all these traumas all these agony they don't talk about i feel like the government is dealing with the ninth of may and said this is the day when you it's possible to clip here all your negative feelings, you can put them there, well, they include, well, memories of the second world war, and here's a shadow, you're watching really very touching soviet films, how i don't know in the film tarkovsky and the belarusian station about the soldier krym died, or, well, this march is happening - the

immortal regiment, which may have originally been enough national people, yes, and if there is a moment where it is impossible to talk about everything, other traumas, such as those created by the kremlin, and you can take all your negative emotions there, they are pushed there . or they are controlled because then such a pathetic rise begins, which, of course, is also associated with aggression. yes, he is very military, instead of the fact that he was a real psychological qatari. are connected with aggression and wars, uh, well, at least for russians, it works for sure, or do you have something else that , after all, false anumu therapy does not do such a thing well , here it gives some kind of psychological relief yes, but it really does not heal because , after all, it is to be treated yes, russia is now very far from the two cops, we need to start talking about everything, these traumatic

moments that are just typical of any territory that the kremlin is petrified, this is all not spoken i don't know some kind of narcotic drug without treating a psychotherapist, yes, maybe for a second, let’s have a visit, but a promise is very strange, the socks flow into aggression, when it flows into aggression , it’s real. i don't know in some polls in some mass media, yes, or publicly, what do you think? well, this drug that you say works really well, and it works for a long time, and why does it work? i mean, you know that the kremlin always has a problem with motivation. yes, in principle, people

support their aggression, and they agree to acts of sadism, and within the military actions of russia, you and i are strange . a lot of people get pleasure from this and what is really insane aa insanely insane well unpleasant da vtoiroi samoe vremya uroven emotsionalnuyu podderje he has me understanding da suete takoy degree aa people are ready to go out on their own and support the russians there wars and so on. they always had a problem with motivation in this regard, yes, ah, hmm, how did he interview kremlin polytechnologists there in the early 2000s, and they said a little bit that our people are cynically passive, and so on and so on i don't know how the word works for us. what, what, we mean, and where do i come from? i don't want people to be especially

motivated . aggression, but they themselves are not doing anything wrong i don't know big, big actions, i mean it works well, we hear from people who spoke with russian soldiers who entered the territory of ukraine, what they say, how they motivate their actions, including the fact that they came here to destroy some nazis, to look for some nazis fascists and so on. that is, it really works. yes, and they kill people, including accusing them or suspecting them of some kind of nazism or something else, and partly. yes, there is what we heard from people who actually experienced it or were witnesses well, that means it is absolutely working, absolutely working tool in the war with ukraine, including uh, on may 9, um, which one well

, this is how it works. in different forces, three were recently released from the russian army. i asked everyone about this . yes, this is what we activated the soldiers with whom you spoke, and i asked about those soldiers who engaged in rather sadistic actions. yes, it is not in bucha, but in the chernihiv region further and we had a question they are sadists because they don’t believe in this propaganda, or are they not just sadists who use propaganda, how is that, yes, a cover for their actions, this is always a very interesting question, in principle propaganda works when it demystifies the worst of us, yes, they say, the man was white and fluffy, yes, he listened kiselev and became bad. he always was bad if you allow us to pay. he says that this is a social

symbol . in general, you saw and heard what i, i heard, but i heard a lot of things, well, it seems to me that now it is difficult to make a huge overview of what we see, let's say, soldiers . what is some number? yes, i don’t believe . these are the ones who really believe that they believe in putin and so on. the legs and others are always older. yes, they are just tired and cynical. there are more young people they didn't tell me again, we can't take a huge overview from this, the younger ones are often the most aggressive, the biggest sadists, and there have already been cases when people talked for a long time about soldiers, and somehow managed not to look for it, convince them, convince them , not that they couldn't to find out how

to demystify these soldiers and their weak side a-a mm-m and this is eh-eh interesting experience eh-eh i would talk to people in the chernihiv region who had to be in the basement with russian soldiers for a long time and would never be groped some the weak points of this propaganda are related to the motivation that your motivation is quite low. i don’t know what happened to these soldiers. they apologized and left. well, that is, what did these conversations with the local residents change in the behavior of these slovaks and in their motivation in this case, yes, and the soldiers ah, well, in this one case, yes, these soldiers, these soldiers, ah, they didn't do anything moderate to these people . well, the next village was

everything is multi-faceted already, yes, they are no longer talking about what happened in buche and so on, but interestingly, when you take a more interesting situation like this from russia, yes , who exactly asks about the motivation of people, yes, not that supporting the war is supported by the majority of people, this is what we know well, it is precisely the degree of emotional support a-a and the degree a-a mm of importance a-a wars their there is a system there a system of values ​​and so on and then more interesting things come out. sociology, i saw wings really, really hotly not so many others support them chat they support them weakly but they don’t support them but without especially such nitrogen the emotional spectrum is weak in some and strong in others how do they differ well, all this is a specialty of social workers in america, too, very much they do it, you ask about understanding the emotional mood of the country what are you asking there? 3-4 questions about the web for the war

against the war and so on. and then there are a lot of questions about the emotional state and in such social questions. the most important thing is that people have many, many, many emotions. do you want some cocktails of emotions? yes, anger, shame, pride, and so on and so on. well, those who supported the war, and that is, it did not contribute to the soot, it was very low, yes, it was acquired at the beginning of march, it seems that i am saying that they lost the war, they have rather weak emotions they are just a-a nadezhda a-a well, these are very very very very liquid, i must have called them, and those who love against the eco-war are very few, as there are 13 or 15%. and i have very strong, very violent emotions, and then there was a group of people in the middle who more or less supported yes, but not simply they felt sad again, all that is for us, they say that the national state is not as strong, powerful, yes, it is powerful, as i think that the kremlin

’s over-confident would like it, it doesn’t say that they would like it to be much stronger, okay, but this is all the same , that is, maybe this is not enough this is what kremlin technologies would like, but this is also what the charged emotions on the other side of those who are against the war are clearly not enough to stop putin, to stop the army from sending their children to the army, and so on, even with the conditions that we hear that are published by the sbu in conversations between military men and their mothers and wives, we actually hear. well, no, faith and cynicism and some absolutely terrible things, and what to do with this to you as a writer and a researcher who investigates propaganda, they constantly come with this question. okay, what about this to do, russia must totally lose the war, this regime must be destroyed so that all the propaganda will go with it, can there be any other methods a-a gradual well meetings by the way in the eighth historical example for the second

world war and what are the british americans doing что to fight the nazis yes, because i would have been through an mri sufficiently strong and well-thought-out psychologically to become very very deep a-a company against nazi germany yes first propaganda or in this case counter-propaganda yes or this is good information to change behavior er place in society the enemy, well, it only works together with military actions and economic actions. with sanctions, yes, and with your own actions, for example, it is happening here, yes, now, with the victories of ukraine, these things are working together. что найбался отдел предского полиционской политичный войн

ты работы близко к с войнамы и близко с економической оформ . germans yes you understand italians in hungarian for all countries agreed to let us do to the germans how we can motivate the germans and it will speed up the end of the war and we will simply take their approach because this same one is unfolded i think in history in the history of the war the bbc was part of you yes yes bcbol fake war, this did not mean that the bbc did not have editorial freedom, editorial freedom was for the military, but they told the truth, it was impossible to lie, but there was no general linnyk, they did not hold three and they did not hold at all, it was so positive there thomas mann, the great german writers who were against the nazis and, in principle

, talked about the possibility of a second germany. well, this was only one part of the approach, and other things were done by the british and the americans by the soshendruk speech. there was no persuading the germans to be good in general , on the contrary, to find fault with the society and on them press a--they made stations, they very often worked with people who left germany, by the way, jews who escaped from germany now wanted to fight with germany, there were stations that were a ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- that the military is not right-wing and so on, in general, everything went a little bit about the incompetence of the authorities and the corruption of the

nazi party. to someone, always, always, they can take, and then there is a long trial, then the nuremberg trial, then the 11th classification, and so on. this is what we are talking about in the military hours. so far, there are no information companies from the west to explain these sanctions, yes, and they are really pressing on the point that they should be pressing , yes . no one is involved in an information campaign around this topic yes to explain what kind of question yes what will be lost in russia well that is what will the russians of ukraine lose even be about the war

yes a-a mm-m here что полять воне что выбить yes a-a m it will be connected to medicine in russia, that is, the well -being of topics that are interestingly related to it, and so on . -and it is mandatory to do information companies together with her so that we can kiss the new media that will be there to talk with grandmothers about the problems of medicine in russia. why is this and what to do when ukraine has such a point of view ? position, and still, deep down, it remains an imperialist and at one time supported the annexation of crimea, and that means that navalny also said that crimea is

a sandwich sandwich, to give it away, not to give it away, he is not going to say that there khodorkovsky also had certain statements about what for him there is almost like a civil war , because for him kharkiv is his home town as much as he is in moscow, well, that is, there was some context there, but it is perceived as what it is in the deep perspective, this will not solve the problem of russia's attitude to ukraine, as well, not only the former colony, but also permanent encroachments, yes, on the territorial integrity of ukraine, on its subjectivity in general, well, first of all, i think that it will be connected to the new information the channels for this, even in spite of that, are very helpful. the arguments that you have given now are the main problem from the point of view of such a military moment of the liberal media that they are sitting in their little bubble in russia, yes they are if it does not

come out. to make a local smith for pskov in this way, so many soldiers are coming home to the beauties, we need them on special media for entertainment, there are very big problems for pensioners in khabarovsk, but we are concerned with the russian the liberal seven never engaged in simply they just sat in their hangouts a-a questions distant main questions about about another russia empty persian well again you wear just here under germany real estate it can prepare yes it is possible to come up with another idea of ​​russia to become there are eh different i don’t know the russian one there, and they think they’re going to inspect, and they really think they’re empty. there aren’t many of them, but there is, well, it’s just such a preparation, of course, it will only be possible after a complete victory. we can think about some kind of future with him, when

the second russia does, when it will be a normal country, but it will be a long way until tomorrow, it will not happen . the soldier gave up and how to work as much as possible with social groups in russia so that they understand that their government is corrupt and does not work in their interests chose an interview with president zelensky which from time to time. well, quite regularly, address it in russian to the residents of russia. how do you rate these appeals? how do you think they work with propaganda and disinformation ? what do you think? you evaluate yourself ah and he feels that he has lost contact with

the russians, he is unable to break through. yes, he asked, but he said about how the people he had communicated with since the age of 14 no longer pick up the phone ah, you understand, she communicated there and gave an interview there by some a-a a-a yes yes opposition media well, again, this is for that party guy who is already against uh- uh kremlin power and mmm chetery very granty told about the future that the main thing was that there was a change in the political regime by changing the official functional space and then it is necessary go to the fact that ordinary russian players did not take responsibility for the war and everything else which need to be experimented with. yes, we do there is an experience of the second world war, a real rich experience , and the archival ones were opened in the 90s, we know in detail

what the americans and the british did, and great psychological psychologists worked at these companies, but it was not said then that he was the first professor of psychoanalysis from the external etymbridge, a lot of germans worked there, special categories of jews, a lot of them, from the price of cabaret in berlin, and they thought very theatrically, how do you need a job with propaganda, or is it crazy that people worked for them, and from art, from psychoanalysis, and so далее and well, journalists also have this experience, yes, the most rich experience that we have. it seems to me. there were especially strong successes about the post-kandist counter-propaganda

against the cause. new practices, and you have a project, which i also know very well, which concerns war crimes . in your opinion, the integration of propaganda into the concept of a war crime is possible, and accordingly, responsibility for propagandistic activities as a war crime at some point can be equated taking the case of ukraine in the 14th year, i am asking the lawyers of the mansion in america there seriously about the possibility of the propagandists there, the kiselevy fame, the simonians, got into a conditional game of syllables, what kind of symbol do you have, so they said no forget about it, because it

is very difficult to catch propagandists for war crimes, by and large there is another example from rwanda where the propagandists simply said directly , go to this place, take pistols and kill these people, this can simply be proven and accepted by the line it seems to me and i say already with several lawyers, and by the way, they agreed that in the state of a new war, information operations are to such an extent merged with military operations. какзать thanks to olga yurkova from stopfeykoy , because of which i started thinking about this topic before the hospital was bombed in mariupol, there was a lot of propaganda in the russian mass media about what is there, i don't know the military , and i don't know for sure that the witches were not preparing this operation, here we see how the information definitely helps

the military operation yes a-a by the way it was very much the same in russia too when the kremlin propaganda a-a it directly worked just you in such a concert together with war crimes especially connected with with chemical weapons, yes, this is one way, yes, and then if i accept lawyers correctly. he used the metaphor that you trailer yourself that a-a um, well, what kind of bandits are robbing the bank, yes, but one of them will have to sit on the street and enter the car, this is the one who will lead the man who drove the cars and drove them, well, he will now prove that they knew about yes, it's not easy, but we know that russian propagandists receive there military medals from the kremlin and so on from themselves they create as part

of the military actions that they themselves already offer to clean up gadya and that's one way a-a there are bullets такой больший такой больший вопрос connected with ээ размер documents about genocides in the list of genocide, there is one more way to do this, when it is possible to try it, when kremenskaya propagandists say that ukraine should not exist, etc. with the words well, no, it doesn’t mean that you don’t need to think about it, at least as the first one i hear from lawyers that the poet should think about it, you think a lot in your projects, and you research the topic of common points in ukraine that can unite ukrainians, well, that is, to war, there were various topics that you looked for, including in historical memory. yes, what

can unite ukrainians, keep them together, somehow direct joint action somewhere? and now we see such a high level of mobilization of joint actions. yes, but surely when the war ends, i hope it ends with an indisputable victory for ukraine , and for sure ukraine will move to some other stage of life. yes, we cannot say what stage it will be in my life. we do not know how this war will end, but what can keep ukrainians going? well, not in such a super elevated mobilization state. and for a very, very long time. yes, and always ukrainians from different parts of ukraine, ukrainians with different ideological views, because many were engaged in this. do you think the war will change something in what holds ukrainians together? well, our sociologist puts in our he is from kharkiv and he now joined the anti-terrorist forces. and now you are just fighting, he is now in the army, but i am making up, don’t forget what

the sociologist is saying. well, they are telling us what is happening, and it is just so interesting. the notes of a sociologist on the front are very touching and very clever. well, let's say that one of these has changed, that the image of the hero of the patriot has changed, because in kharkiv, especially, the main hero, well, except for the war , guys don't fight, of course, these are people, these are janitors who clean the city, stop them, they bomb they clean up the bombs, they clean up many of them with such a conceptual patrician hangout, some, not many , some left for lviv so that it is clear. but we didn’t get involved, but really with you great heroes and the greatest patriots, you’re drowning. well , i’m ready to risk my life and build a city. the idea of ​​patriotism isn’t what has changed. it’s become much bigger. it seems to me that

it seems that the country is much stronger than the enemy of the debt, and finally it will stop even stronger and stronger, thank you very much, and we talked with peter pomerantsev, a british journalist , writer, researcher of propaganda and disinformation, and then we talk about our people, about our strong people about indomitable ukrainians, despite everything through russian greece , displaced person andriy nevydyuk and his family were twice forced to flee from shelling and bombing. in 2014, she left luhansk for kharkiv, and after of the full-scale invasion of russia into ukraine on february 24 to vinnytsia, a man currently drives a taxi in the city with his favorite french bulldog craft and also carries humanitarian aid to those who remain under shelling, the man told the public his story, good day, good day, you have a

dog here, not a bite, a woman from vinnytsia used the taxi service yuliya kovalishyna, on call, the driver came with his french bulldog during the trip. andriy nevydyuk lets the dog pet him and even takes a picture with kraft 48 let's go yulia says to ride in the same car with a dog in front is very cool, especially now it somehow helps to distract from the news and lift your spirits for the whole day i think especially if there are passengers with children, it will be just a lot of fun andriy nevydyuk with a french bulldog craft in vinnytsia taxiing for two months now, a displaced man from kharkiv says that together with his wife and children, they fled the war twice in 2014, because of hostilities, they had to leave their native home in luhansk and move to kharkiv. and when russia went full-scale to ukraine , we moved to vinnytsia, we prepared our chic basements, we stocked up on food