had to react, but very often he refused to support certain things. yes, we remember that it was a struggle. why were they unable to find such a stronger consensus or understanding among themselves, for example, in 1992? and in general, what did the situation look like during the first presidential elections let me remind you that leonid kravchuk was running for president of ukraine, he also won levko lukyanenko and vyacheslav chornovil, you know if you look at the 90s, the people's council, which was energized and led by political prisoners , constantly attacked the communist majority constantly on every session day and every session hour, we attacked the communists, and kravchuk fought back, and then compromising figures such as pavlychko yavorivskyi drach appeared, who went to kravchuk and tried to find compromises

, so it went on and on and on. and later after the announcement independence was quite understandable, and the late vyacheslava maksymovich later spoke about it on several occasions, he perfectly understood that he did not have many chances to defeat kravchuk in the national presidential elections, because ukraine only jumped out of the communist empire, which was the soviet union, and chornovil actually behaved very dignified and was at the height of his position, he said that my main task is not to become president, but to achieve the maximum result in referendums in favor of independence, and therefore to a certain extent they say that if the opposition then nominated one candidate lukyanenko yukhnovsky wouldn't have gone there, taburyanskyi, believe me, nothing has changed, the situation was obvious in that the maximum we could achieve in 1991 was independence, and we had to do it

the issue of going to the union with part of the communists, and the payment for this was the preservation of power by those who previously had it, only they threw away party tickets, but in 1992, from my point of view, maksymovich chornovil lost the chance to take power is common knowledge and it was known when today we have friends for the movement, kravchuk offered chornovil to head the government and chornovil refused, it was already a year of ukrainian independence, chornovil and uh, the dissident spoke even then, i won’t judge whether it was right or wrong now done and possible vyacheslav maksymovich felt that it would be a trap for him. if he was

put in charge of the government in a situation when the post-soviet economy of ukraine was in a situation where the post-soviet economy of ukraine was in a situation where he was in the beginning of the 90s what happened to the ukrainian economy, yes, corresponding salaries , inflation, coupons, and so on. and so on. perhaps this is true. i am inclined to agree that these considerations were the main ones in chornovol's behavior, although, look, vaclav havel was a playwright and had no economic knowledge. oleg valensa was a simple electrician worker. but when he became president, he found a mazovian. poland made a colossal leap. i understand that ukrainian analogies

and ukrainian realities were different, but i must also say that the chance in 1992 for representatives of the movement to enter the executive power and embrace the key whoever it was, it is difficult to say, and history does not have this conditional method, so chornovil rejected this chance, i remind you that in rivne, a year later , the forces of revenge achieved early elections of the parliament and the president in ukraine, and in 1994, we received in the parliament who restored the communist party of ukraine, which was fought until 2002, when our ukraine led by yushchenko won an impressive victory and pushed the communists away from real power. this is the real story and

you can evaluate it in different ways from my point of view point of view. if i were now then, by the way, i would be more in favor of it. really, chornovil should not have taken this power, but i was a young politician, i was 25 or 26 years old, we were all quite radical and wanted to continue the fight against the post-communists who got rid of their party tickets, and therefore from a height of today's time, i think that maybe it was necessary to act according to- ugu mr. taras thank you for this excursion and in fact , you emphasized a lot of important points. extent, but i want to move a little closer to today's day to leonid kravchuk as the head of the delegation in the tripartite contact group while we still had at least some

relevance to the minsk format, and there were some kind of semi-consultations and semi-negotiations in different subgroups of a-a of a different kind. and leonid makarovich actually distinguished himself by his participation in the tcg, in particular, how well did he work there in your opinion, is it possible to draw any conclusions about the quality of this or that member, even the head of in the case when the three hundred contact group itself and the minsk format were called stillborn by many personal, but i can tell you that due to my personal capabilities and personal e-e connections with him, i

tried to influence the process and i personally and myself and among other people went to kravchuk argued with him in 2020 and 2021, and we wanted to use his access to president zelensky in order to convey our opinion about the harmfulness of the minsk process as such, and in private conversations they understood this very well, but he went to zelensky in the first two years as well in fact , we understand that the president of ukraine, volodymyr zelensky, had illusions about putin and about the possibilities of implementing the minsk process. and here we came, as in the old days, to convince him from the position of radical nationalists, and he did not he refused to meet with us. he listened to us and he said, i will go and try to talk to him. later he came and, as imagined, far from everything

was accepted, and that is why his position was so controversial, and his public position in this tripartite contact group actually did not end in anything, and in this case uh, he probably wanted to do something good so that peace would come to ukraine, but do you remember how he said literally in his last public speech that if i have to fight , i will take automatic weapons and defend my land, he either overheard or understood very well that all these negotiations, all this minsk process and these agreements with putin are not worth eating eggs , he understood what was happening, but as a political person who was used to being cunning during his long political journey, sometimes visiting, sometimes hiding , he expressed himself in such a way that it was very society was often perceived ambiguously, and i say even in the last two years of his life, when i had

the opportunity, quite yes, let's say, actively discussed with him. he was sincere during those discussions, well, alec, for me personally, the key question is how cute he got into the sdpu, that is, he couldn't help but know the fuck about mr. medvedchuk. he couldn't help but know the other characters. he couldn't help but understand for what purpose, but he succumbed, well, and we remember that he also had certain connections with rather not so simple, i would say odious ukrainian politicians, and he could simply already be on some kind of honorary pension. well, what other career could he have made as the first president of the restored ukrainian state well, there is the first or the second, depending on who you consider the president mykhailo hrushevskyi or the head of the verkhovna rada. and where are the facts of the time, yes, or the real first president? well, i think that the reason

is very prosaic and banal after kravchuk was supposed to be the president, and maybe even before that, well, sooner just after that, this clan of medvedchuks , surkis, and there were seven of them there, eh. they just took some of them to makarovych under their care . information, but i know for sure that when there was this story with the chubs and the dynamo kyiv football club , they were actually crooks as the owners of the dynamo kyiv football club, they asked kravchuk in the international arena of the first president to settle this story with the bribes they gave to the referees for the result of the football match in the champions league and from that moment on, i don't know, materially, not materially, but somehow they still

took care of me, but it's hard for me to tell makarovych , that's why it turned out that way, after all, kravchuk was from that of the communist elite, who did not make any special fortune in the soviet union, after all, she was such a person who served, but the salary was high, there was some special ration, there were special stores, but he did not have any such large personal money. well, they took it. there wasn't a good period and a good side of his political activity , and there's nothing to even talk about. and it's completely in vain . let's say he was in the circle of people, then he gave it up. in what case of light i am his memory khrystyna yatskiv has just touched on another track, it is about the peace format, which, unfortunately

, was realized in what way in the war in the great war of russia against ukraine, we understand that this is justice, look, let's say he gave us a certain time, well, that is, again, i return to the thesis about the criticism of the minsk negotiation processes, formats and so on, but less, however, we had this text. this is how everyone confirms that the war will be long. increase in degree so, taras, i couldn't help but ask you about the specifics of this already not weak degree. we understand at what level the fighting is going on now, but american intelligence answers that they say who is not all, i am internal for myself, i do not sleep in such a direction under the name of such an instruction, or rather as a long war is not in the interests of ukraine,

i can say frankly, uh, losing the war for kyiv, losing the war for donbas, putin has really found himself in a dead end and he has no other way out than to go to freezing and wars or to a war of attrition that is, he wants to go into the winter, he wants to exhaust, and without that we will exhaust to ukraine, i think that somewhere there, something closer to winter will work for him, or ukraine will start a frenzy, or you will want russian gas and oil in europe, or something else will happen, and so on and so forth ukraine, having survived the first two stages and we are in the third, should not under any circumstances give everyone a chance to involve themselves in this

dependent war. to be resolved in the summer of this year. well, i doubt that the spirit of stefan bathory or some other great commander is all over the place, and we will get there, conditionally speaking , to kaluga. well, we probably don't need to go to kaluga. but it wouldn't hurt to go to the outskirts of rostov and belgorod . i am simply 100% convinced that the ukrainian military leadership understands this perfectly well, as soon as all the necessary circumstances are created. and we know what these circumstances are, a sufficient number of weapons. a counteroffensive and throw the russian army out of

its territory and only this will create internal sadness in russia itself and the disintegration processes in the russian federation, whatever will be in the interests of ukraine, and i believe that it is definitely not possible to limit yourself to the line of february 23. thank god, such a political leadership already understands this because earlier zelensky said that he would consider it a success, it is not a success. i think that the de-occupation of the part of donbas that we lost in the 14th year and where the occupation of crimea, well, crimea can be options, it will be possible so quickly, for example, because to clarify, i’m sorry, it’s important to me, but for example, it’s not necessary to say that we can send ground troops through the isthmus, you can bomb the airfields of kostopol, you can bomb the crimean bridge and

force them like wrangel, do you remember coffee from the crimea from turkey as a vrang it is possible to do it like that and why should our people die there in the expanses of steppe crimea , we can do something differently if we have an advantage in artillery, air defense systems and, i hope , also in aviation, mr. taras, but we understand for that so that it is safe to carry out such acts without any crazy consequences, yes, yes, we need the circumstances to develop in a certain way, what should be the circumstances, well, that is, it is unlikely that putin will be like this oh, i was so wrong when i invaded ukraine on february 24, probably from crawling back i ca n't imagine it. to be honest, no, i can throw him out only by military means. he doesn't respond. he can only be thrown out by the strength of the ukrainian army multiplied by western weapons, and i don't see any other

option on some surrender document. whether or not it should be, given his psychotype, it is difficult to imagine how he admits his defeat, or could it be his i don’t know uh, it’s an untimely end, as they say there. what could it be? look, i think that putin’s signature cannot be for the meaning of the military capitulation of this state on behalf of russia will be signed by other people, other people not only unleashed the war, and as i explained my opinion, as soon as the ukrainian army inflicts a military defeat on russia on its territory and goes to its borders, it may disappear by what tail i am more i am sure that internal processes will begin in russia that will lead to the overthrow of putin's regime. this is a conspiracy. in russia, there were no other options when the tsar

who lost the war remained in power. i consider it unacceptable for ukraine not to negotiate but to sign a surrender with a person recognized the whole world as a war criminal, well, imagine if in 1945 hitler surrendered and left, do you think that stalin and churchill signed, but he and i surrendered under no circumstances. by the way , the allies will then sign other people others the provisional government that will be created there or will be authorized by the russian state duma , let them decide for themselves, thank you, thank you, mr. taras taras stetskiv, a people's deputy of several convocations, analyzed the current situation. well, in general, the last 30 years of our independence are a very , very important conversation. we hope to hear from odesa oleksandr babich odesa volunteer,

founder of the travel agency to and fro, contact us oleksandr, we welcome you, glory to ukraine, but the first thing i will probably ask about is the mood in the city, however how is odessa holding up, in particular, taking into account that the aggressor has some particularly bloody feelings towards odessa in particular and the number of missile strikes in particular. this confirms well, in my opinion, missile strikes on odessa do not really affect the state of what is happening in the city, at least the city is used to this city has learned to live with it and uh, we uh, well , you know, some people just don't react to air alarms, apparently, some people are nervous in ukraine, but you already have some such skills, you know, the habit of war is felt in the city, uh, as for uh- is in general

the situation is not so military, but even humanitarian , we have been talking about odessa for a long time in connection with the mykolaiv region, and we understand how much odessa actually supports and still supports mykolaiv because these are the foundations of its security. now it is possible hmm feels a need in particular the city what could we do to help by giving publicity or is there something so important that people need here and now and maybe to help the local authorities now well look i am speaking as a volunteer the largest but which has a connection with almost all volunteer centers i don't see any such needs uh-uh about which we would have to shout loudly oh-oh-oh there is nothing in odessa let's say we know what the problem is in mykolaiv with water and odessa really

helped a lot and simply transferring water there in bottles or tanks and it was odessa volunteers who organized water purification stations for mykolaiv, they bought them and they even went there to install them, we are really so grateful to mykolaiv who protected us, and odessa took that blow trying to answer with thanks yes er providing mykolaiv's rear and collecting here and things and everything needed for the doctors of mykolaiv and for the people of mykolaiv here here i don't remember such a relationship at least yes such a fruitful and fruitful er and what is needed in this war, i don't see any problems for odesa today, but they are really humanitarian

ones . in fact, the bridge and across the lyman, in particular. what about logistics in the sense of humanitarian cargoes , the provision of various parts of the region in connection with the uh, actually non-existent now, as i understand it, the bridge well, uh, there is a problem, i won't talk about all the nuances, but let's say that today i personally have a problem with finding fuel in order to go to orlovka, you know, in the humanitarian conditions of the volunteer center. there was even a question whether or not to ask the poles, these are the polish busses who are coming to us now so that they postpone

their trip, but they solved it. we found a diesel engine and we will do everything related to the bridge. the case when my friend came up and said that people who are engaged in grain export came and said that we have everything ready to set up a ferry crossing there belgorod-dniester liman and if necessary, it was a conversation even with the governor, well, very quickly and they said we will take care of everything because they even brought with them the engineer er who fully yes all the calculations of what needs to be done to put it there quickly quickly within a few hours they are ready to put the password there so that here we can also decide and volunteers we are already ready for this if necessary, and the authorities are helping and the authorities are ready for this too. at least i know that, well

, accordingly, i would like to ask you about another aspect of the economy of odessa. we understand that the holiday season, if we were not convinced there, is hidden. we understand that a large part of odessans will not be there. i think that in the fall they started counting the money they could earn. and now, how will odesa come out of this situation? well, the real sector of odesa 's economy. that is, these are living people. these are restaurants . i don't know. there are bazaars. people who rented housing and so on and so on, that is, there is a feeling that the city is entering some kind of specific economic crisis, well, again, i can answer here first of all for myself and my colleagues who were directly related to me, uh, we we understand that there won't be a holiday season. i'm like a man who created a powerful travel agency. i'm already thinking about what i should

do except to feed my family and my subordinates. unfortunately, there is no answer now, there are restaurants, coffee shops , there are plenty of restaurants in the city, but there will not be tourists of the same quality as before . the fact that i will not do any, let's say, advertising, just in case someone he will come to odesa and, god forbid, he will die here. no, i am not the ukrainian citizens, not the ukrainian government. i will not be able to answer how you allowed this, so we will think about the safety of the people in the first place. and until we defeat russia, until they at least they will stop firing rockets , uh, talk about tourism. we can't, well,

unfortunately, the question of where is the russification of odesa. khrystyna had interesting information about kharkov , where the streets are actively being russified, and in odesa . as far as i understand, the monument to catherine ii is further because in the bathroom desecrating the land of blessed odesa but khrystyna what is there in kharkiv kharkiv oblast kharkiv city council voted to rename the moscow district and three more streets named after cities of the russian federation , that is, it is not even a question of distancing ourselves from some historical figures from let's say yes, anti-ukrainian activity is even about reluctance to somehow associate in one's place just russian cities, pro-russian names. i understand that this issue can be sensitive, although i hope that there are certain changes in it and in odesa in the

odesa region, what do you have with de-russification, is there anything at all? this is like a phenomenon now, and there were several separate cases when monuments were demolished, but they were more likely from the soviet era . but the city authorities have not yet developed such a clear program. i am a member of the historical and economic commission of the city and i know all the processes from the inside. yes, i have been there for five years. see the law on decommunization here a very difficult question. let's say, i myself am not very ready to demolish kateryna's thuja, because i just like it aesthetically. she is perfectly standing there, and aesthetically, this square with her looks beautiful, but i understand that this process needs to be started and it is very

difficult for me, see here i explained them. if we have another hour, er, if we demolish it , we need to rename the square and catherine's square, and behind it, catherine's street, which is one of our central streets for all time, was catherine's street, karl marx, hitler, karl marx in novii katerynivska, for 200 years of its existence. where to give such a name and richelieu next to it? yes, this is another governor-general of novorossiya, er, the same duke richelieu. if it is necessary to rename it, then we must demolish his kingdom. and to what extent are we then we have to carry out this process. odessa is a city that is actually a little more than 200 years old here if we take imperial history and we have nothing left from the period before odessa. yes, we do not have a single building from the khajiber period. it is very difficult somewhere, but

right away, you know, i am in this. reflective in us there is a drive in scientific circles here, and vakarchuk came to slovakia. and we sat with him for four days. that's why it was and he tells me such a phrase. i ask him this question weakly . kharkiv , you wouldn't have this question now, you would take sledgehammers and go demolish everything to see how the people of kharkiv are doing it, because you are still sorry in odesa . i understand this, but the final answers to these are your questions, so many discussions and i studied around the mykola monument in kyiv and the most interesting thing is that mr. roitbord was the person who remarked that it is a beautiful equestrian

monument, despite the fact that certain historical, so to speak, aspects are more important. thank you oleksandra oleksandr babich odessa volunteer founder of the travel agency back and forth he was in touch with us e antina thank you for the air thank you you fought you understand how an informational valkyrie we have radio svoboda colleagues, a word of greeting to you is freedom life my name is vlasta lazur we pray on the pages of radio svoboda on facebook and on youtube and also on the air of the espresso tv channel this morning, russia aimed at zaporizhzhia over the city, the air defense forces shot down the missile, but it exploded over the infrastructural object