well, the position of this or that political leader in this regard only elevates him and gives him greater weight and popularity, that is, he wants to play here, it seems to me, both economically and politically, that is, economically, not to lose his opportunities for the economy of turkey, but politically, well, to find his own role hmm well, who can reconcile eh, well , practically, eh, two eh civilizations, democratic and authoritarian, and find some kind of compromise, well, actually for him, this topic seems to me to be quite eh hmm attractive and he would like eh this opportunity but again, not at the expense of ukraine. over the past three months, we have been trying to understand what exactly vladimir putin finally wants, whether he wants the east and the south of ukraine,

or whether he wants the gradual occupation of the annexation of the entire territory of ukraine, although we understand that a year ago putin declared which continues to declare that no ukraine ever existed and that it was once invented by volodymyr ilyich lenin there and well, in a word, all these stories about er pototsky who invented count pototsky who invented ukrainians general e volodymyr shamanov is a deputy of the state duma of the russian federation and he once commanded the airborne forces of the russian federation. he was one of the leaders of the russian war in chechnya, and the defenders call him involved in the mass death of my residents and the torture of detainees. he told how he sees ukraine after the war, noted that they don't need ukraine as part of russia, let's listen to

shamanov, we don't know the mood of the population, we don't know how our relations with neighboring states are they looked as if they would ask, er, influence their presence. until the end, it will dehumanize ukraine, and this is not a simple matter that will take 5 to 10 years, and secondly, this is where

the nassification, which will go on in parallel, and the formation of power, which has not soiled itself with these neo-nazis, and it will be very difficult to do this, if the spirit of manifestation does not happen , then uh, we don’t need it because we have uh, the donetsk and luhansk republics and krym . % allies well, this is the position of general shamanov and volodymyr, nothing really new. he did not say anything new, he repeated the narratives that are always used. and vladimir putin. well, maybe putin is not so frank about the fact that we will destroy ukraine there for 5-10 years.

to destroy the entire infrastructure and kill residents to terrorize all of europe with ukrainian migrants, and yet, when we talk about the future trial of racists and started with putin, can you imagine the scale of those people who have to sit on the bench, the number of people who have to sit on the dock and answer for that war which they unleashed on our territory, you first asked the question, what is the ultimate goal, is donetsk there or something else, luhansk? well, let's remember what our soldiers found when they bombed columns that crawled from the north to kyiv there on wednesdays, among other things, they found a parade uniform in order to pass er with drums and

fanfares of the baptismal font, that is, the idea was definitely er, at least at that stage er, that all ukraine was er occupied ukraine was taken over in order to install a puppet government here that will carry out everything that will be written in moscow. is this topic completely gone ? i think that this whole putin camellia is all half-crazy. the leaders of today's russia do not dream of this greatness logic is needed, and they just need another conquest without actually any meaning, because they do not

bring with them anything positive for others, but their positive is to simply occupy a part of the globe and establish this terrible russian order there nothing has changed ideologically, but it has actually changed because the ukrainian armed forces showed the place of this second so-called army of the world and showed that it will be destroyed what you and i said in the first part of our conversation also appear, and the americans and the anti-russian anti- putin coalition formed in rammstein , which has already held its second meeting, confirm that ukraine receives all the necessary support

for in order to restrain the enemy, and i think that not only restraining but also beating him so that he finally leaves the territory of our state. therefore, while being under the insane sanctions, it is to oppose the rest of the civilized world, you understand her there are no allies, not even china, on which she strongly counted, waved her pen and said that yes, yes, we are with you ideologically, we will vote for you for the un, but we will not help you in practice, that is why this country actually has no prospects, serhiu and this is what this general is talking about there five-seven or how many years until they kill us and nazify us 11 years old i'm afraid that during this time it won't happen so that this structure on the world map wouldn't be left so it's better for them

to think about what is happening in their own country, and not to consider fantastic plans for the identification or demilitarization of the ukrainian army or the ukrainian people. so, i treated this rather calmly, as with well, simply , those theses that were imposed on them and what they they can not but repeat, but regarding the number of those who will sit on the bench well, i think that it will be hundreds of people, it will not be limited to putin and his narrow so-called politburo, at which they decide everything that will happen in the country. i think they will sit here and those who helped him and in

from a financial and economic point of view, the propagandists will definitely sit down. those who are seen as helping to wage this aggressive war against ukraine will definitely sit down. well, it cannot be otherwise, because evil must ultimately be punished. by the way, about propagandists, kremlin propagandists talk about that now they are dispersing the thesis that the special operation in ukraine is over, the third world war is starting, let's see how they are now this thesis is being dispelled, the time has come to recognize that the special operation of russia is in ukraine ended there, in the sense that the real war began, and what is the third world war

? before joining nato, and i understand that their stupa is a matter of one year at the most and it is clear that the north atlantic alliance is becoming much closer to russia than they imagined and in particular, in the baltic sea, but the propagandists still continue to talk about the fact that we are already fighting the whole world, that this is the third world war, and for three months we have seen how a special operation, a military special operation, and aid to the so-called lpr and dpr have already turned into a third world war the war, that is, if you look at all the speeches of putin and his propagandists, they went from helping the people's militia to the so-called lpr and dnr and ended with the third world war

. what do you think, it's clear that the consumer of russian directed at the leaders of russia, of course, the tribunal will deal with it. and what to do with 160 million russians, who are constantly being brainwashed with such mush, well, except for the smile of this eye, all the uh-uh tricks of skabeeva and uh-uh and the like, well, you can't accept it well, look, even if i say the ukrainian army, which, unfortunately, does not have even a fraction of the capabilities that the allies have to beat and drive the occupier, believe me, only the united states of america with its weapons will really

bring this poor empire to its knees in a few days that's why everything will end because there is almost nothing to fight back there and if skabeeva is talking about the fact that she will militarize nato, well , that's just the highest level of idiocy. it is a well-known diagnosis, but the problem with the russian population is that it is actually paid for by such propagandists and takes it at face value. and why a special operation or what ? there they called it turn everything into the third world war, well, because in fact there are no results of the special operation and if everyone says that it is going according to plan, then how come according to the

plan more than 30,000 of these bandits have already been destroyed, how about according to this plan the total losses are already more than 120 000 crippled and wounded , those who can no longer fight, what kind of plan is this then? and the answer is very simple. well, it's not russia, not ukraine, in fact, we are fighting with the west, it's actually fighting with nato. but by the hands of ukrainians. and these treacherous western scumbags are exactly what they aim to bring the world before the third world war, and we wonderful russians will defend ourselves and we will all go to heaven. well, it’s roughly like that, but it’s absolutely uh , well, it’s really an ideological thing that is perceived by the population. there is a stretch somewhere, well, according

to various estimates, it is somewhere around 112,100,115 million, because uh, well , first of all, there is a complete demographic catastrophe in russia , uh, this is already a known fact for a long time. we fall into a demographic hole with which we will never get out of, and here we have also left. according to various estimates, up to 10 million people, and now everyone who can leave is just leaving, that's why there aren't that many people there anymore . these wild completely er inadequate narratives, and strangely enough, he gets along with them quite well in principle, and that's why i'll tell you frankly the biggest

er threat, and in this regard, the most important task will actually be the derasization of the russian society, so these criminals are still worth it they will be sentenced. they receive their er terms, some for life, some for 15-20 years, er, this is self-evident, but this is a relatively small number of people, but this whole mass of these, er, well, i don’t know if they can be called people if they are intercepted sbu, we read that a woman says that they need to cut stars on the children's backs and cut off their ears and fingers, well, it's really , uh, people, uh, with absolutized

people. it is possible here how to re-educate them and how to return them to er-e human understanding what is happening around this will be the most difficult task for specialized humanity and i think that it will not be solved even within one generation because what today is called the russian people is really a mixture of people of different nationalities of different ideologies of different religions social status uh and who are united only by one desire to spoil everything around them and here's how to re-educate this people, how to rebuild it to normal development, everything seems to me to be an extraordinary problem and recipes there is no such quick enumeration, the germans

probably spent more than one generation on this, maybe even two. what will happen to the russians, well, this is a question for the world community, because leaving such a horde to its own devices even after the leadership of the leaders will be a huge strategic mistake, it should be a very well-organized, multi- layered and multi-functional work on how to get this horde out of the state in which this horde is today among those people who must sit on the dock together with vladimir putin is also the self-proclaimed president of belarus, oleksandr lukashenko. he spoke a lot and commented a lot. over the past three months, however, the territory of the republic of belarus was used for the entry of the russian army from the

north to kyiv, so in general, in ukraine, planes that took off from baranovichi, er, bombed ours cities, our villages were carrying out airstrikes now, the main directorate of interchanges of the ministry of defense of ukraine says that the russians have rolled iskanders to the ukrainian-belarusian border and from the side of belarus may be struck by this super-powerful weapon at the same time. what does lukashenko say? lukashenko says that the war in ukraine is a scenario that could be implemented in belarus. let's listen to the self-proclaimed president of belarus. looked at it all. of course, it wasn't lukashenko. although he

could also talk about dogs. if they prepare a synchronous lukashenko for us now, we will listen to what lukashenko said, but the main message is clearly that the war - this is a scenario that could be implemented in belarus or in ukraine, lukashenko is trying to distance himself from this war, but he is already an accomplice in this war, according to you, mr. volodymyr lukashenko, he manages to play a role and play a fool. let's put it this way in the international arena i'm not here at all, but i'm together with putin, he's already played this role of a fool for me. in my opinion, he played sergei. he really wanted to be a mediator as well. remember all the minsk processes. remember all these invitations from the westerners. leaders, how happy he was when

mrs. merkel flew to him in minsk, when he arranged these four-way meetings, it raised him to the heavens in his eyes, and he already saw himself as a bit different from the same mediators as they are seen today some other leaders, including those we mentioned today, but this period has passed and it is not by chance that the west announces sanctions not only against russia, but also against belarus, clearly understanding that the belarusian regime is just as totalitarian i just as undemocratic, just as aggressive, because in fact he is an accomplice in what the russian federation is doing, if belarus gives its territory to the armed forces of another country that attack independent ukraine, believe me, even er, a schoolboy will say well

, he is an accomplice in a crime, and an accomplice in a crime must also bear responsibility for such actions, so i think that er, with him, so to speak and i think he'll try uh by x-day for himself, it is urgent to leave his native belarus and escape somewhere in the region of the warm indian ocean, i think that suitable villas have already been prepared there, most likely under fortresses so that they cannot be taken by storm, and there, if he manages to escape, he will spend his last days there or he will fall into the hands of justice and then he will be allocated a small room somewhere in a prison in the

netherlands. well, there they say that, in principle, humane european justice feeds normally, there is a tv. so i think he will watch the latest news if of course he will learn at least some foreign language. well, by the way, the director tells me that there is lukashenko's synchronicity, let's listen to what the script unfolds there. neighboring countries fuck it on ukraine , volodymyr. what do you think, whether the self-proclaimed president of belarus will dare to bring belarusian troops into the territory of ukraine or not ? no one will ask mr. serhiy about it.

the answer to his question is that he is not in the uh situation where he can influence the adoption of some uh serious decisions and putin will not ask him whether he can or cannot do certain things, he will simply give him the command that such and such a unit so-and-so regiment or brigade has to enter the territory of ukraine tomorrow , without, as they say, announcements and without overtaking and without any chance that it can be contested in any way unless lukashenko will find some other excuses by promising something a little later when something will be there better by saying that the belarusian partisans killed 3 km of the railway there. that is why it is not

unrealistic. in a word, i will come up with another fairy tale in which putin, due to his inadequacy, can even believe, but in fact it is independent lukashenka and independent there is no belarusian state today, and we ourselves have to state with great, great regret. well, at the end of our conversation, mr. volodymyr, let's try to predict how the world will be. the other world is not the one that has already intervened for us, the western world like him. and in what perspective will putin finally understand what is threatening not only nato, putin threatens not only the united states of america and ukraine, but putin threatens all civilizations that live on planet earth well, we were just talking to you, mr. sergey, i think that this hack , uh, if it hasn't already happened, uh, it's happening and more and

more number of heads of western leaders, and today's article by mr. biden seems to me to be significant in this regard, because he speaks clearly and precisely about the fact that russia is becoming a global threat, that is, a threat to everyone, i will repeat myself but i will say again that i am sad about uh the western world does not want to restrain this russia, asking the question in a different way whether the world needs such a russia and whether it is probably worth doing something with it so that it either returns to common sense, which i personally do not believe, or punish it in such a way that it is not it is capable of nothing just to feed its half-detached population, but unfortunately, the west

does not want to ask the question. well, probably because of certain ethical considerations, but actually because he does not understand what russia is as such he does not want he doesn't want to study its history, he doesn't want to study the psychology of this population, he doesn't want to understand that democracy has never spent the night there and there will never be any liberal russia, because i said one by the way, a russian political scientist, you can't go back to where you weren't there will be no liberal russia because it never existed in russia. if we look at the history of the russian federation , we have never seen a liberal regime in russia during all 500 years of its existence. well, isn't this the answer to the question of what to do with such a country? well i think that you know that it is a matter of time and we will gradually and relentlessly prove to our western partners that they look at russia through

rose-colored glasses even today and put on those that will allow her to better see what kind of country this is. thank you, mr. volodymyr, for the conversation, i will remind you that in our guest on our air was volodymyr hryshko, diplomat, politician, minister of foreign affairs of ukraine in 2007-2009, i am saying goodbye to you, my friends. until tomorrow, turn on the espresso tv channel. to the espresso tv website. and of course, like this video. if you watch us on youtube or facebook. good health to all. take care of yourself and your loved ones. watch espresso news and euro programs espresso for ukrainian refugees in europe co-broadcast with the atp channel.

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