what every literature teaches now we have reconsidered dostoyevsky and tolstoy and what they actually caused pushkina very natalya piypa, people's deputy of ukraine, secretary of the committee on education, science and innovation, we did not talk to you about these innovations. end thank you vasyl for the land of which thank you very much. by the way, at the very end, what did i want to say? and how many russians in general created ukrainian literature? mykola zerov, marko vovchok , for example. i was also in russian. by the way, ania akhmatova is also interesting. anna gorenko. well, i don’t know. these are all the questions that will be discussed. i think they will be discussed. i will say at the very end that there is more information on the sps-tv website on the channel pages on social networks facebook telegram youtube twitter instagram subscribe to you will see support for the return of espresso to the digital ether qr-codes with a link in the left corner of the screens well, we will now present the project yes, we have a joint project of espresso and the pen club and it is called our own names with myroslava barchuk and the guest is me and rostyslav semkiv

really great philologist let's see good evening my name is myroslav vakarchuk and this is a new online project my own names and in this project we talk with intellectuals about important things about what historical point we are in what we want to see our country after the victory we react at the events we give evaluations to the events we try to describe our understanding of those tectonic shifts that are happening right before our eyes in ukraine today the own names project is being implemented with the support of swedish foam we will be with you meet every wednesday at 7:00 p.m. on the facebook pages and youtube channels of ukrainian bevt

and the espresso tv channel. in addition, the left bank lb.ua publication will later publish text versions of the conversations . consider them interesting, we will be grateful for likes and, of course, for comments, today we will talk about how to study russian literature at school in ukraine, is it worth studying it at all, about how russian classical literature created this imperial myth about the greatness of russia, the russian army, the glory of russian weapons, about the absence of borders in the empire, about the special mysterious russian soul, and so on , in a word, the myth that fascinated millions of our compatriots, and actually the whole world separately, i want to talk about whether ukrainians should consider gogol their writer and bulgakov to me

today is rostislav senkiv, writer, literary critic rostislav greetings good evening good evening rostislav i will start with a very specific question, do you rate the statement that in ukrainian schools will not study works of russian literature, in particular tolstoy's novel war and peace and some other works of russian literature that glorify the russian army, what do you think? what is your opinion about this, which can be taken immediately in such a practical way, even if the relevant works were not taken away from the program on foreign literature, everything would be the same for them, it would be very difficult to

study them. well, it's our own, or the people who make decisions, or the ministries. and if we look at it from the point of view of those who will study this literature. i taught the problem at school for two years and i, for example , do not see the strength now to try to explain to the children in the class to the students in the class the beauty of, let's say, russian poetry, despite the fact that there will be people in the class who were forced to lose their homes were forced to to immigrate to whom they waited shelling who knew that these were russian rockets flying , which may have killed relatives or relatives who were

under occupation and were abused there, i.e. these children will be in the classrooms and, uh, study these texts, uh, this is causing them repeated psychological trauma. i think that uh, uh, at school as it is, the children will refuse to study these texts, that is, in fact , the presence of these texts in the program will simply inflame the conflict within the school, it will be a constant conflict between students, teachers, and many of the teachers will be exactly the same positions yes that is, this is the literature eh about which we now have to talk about the leaves of the aesthetic point of view, this is another problem yes, that is, another, another plane, which writers are better, which are stronger, which of the russian writers are all-powerful, which are secondary to europe, this is also quite a lot, we can discuss it , but it is not the time now, because the time is the fact

that the presence of any texts of russian literature in general in the school will traumatize the students . therefore, it is completely inappropriate, i will add one small fact - german er german the writer appeared in the program of the soviet and soviet schools as early as the 60th year, 15 years after the 45th year, and it was goethe with the first part of faust. before that, there were no german writers on the school program and no one, well, everyone just understood obviously, they understood this problem, that these writers would not be accepted, and, in principle, this is the way it is now, and that's why, in our school , it is obvious and understandable that we need a moratorium on the study of russian russian writers and russian texts. well, we'll see later there

ideally, by that time, until they are there in the north. start studying shevchenko in full earnest, vasyl stus rostyslav, but the problem here is that we are currently discussing, however , whether to study or not to study, and to read or not to read, not with the russians we discuss within society, i am part of our compatriots, and part of people who grew up in ukraine were formed, they believe that this is a minority complex, that this is a certain provincialism, and that this is the fear of competition with a great culture, as they say, so it is opinion, you obviously heard the statement of mr. rostovych, the adviser to the head of the e-e office, that ukrainian culture is

small , but i'm not even talking about that. let's divide politics separately, culture separately. what do you think is needed to actually convince these people where this stubbornness comes from? well, it is clear where such stubbornness comes from. it is possible to study at school, but this is one thing now in relation to people who have nostalgia, well, nostalgia. yes, it is nostalgia for some time. when it was apparently even clearer, yes, and all literary markers stood in their places, and now it is necessary to reevaluate and abandon the old ones it is always difficult to give up illusions from illusions, especially if this illusion lasted for a certain time

. he proves there that well, he actually considers the problem as difficult for people from former colonies to refuse the presence of imperial culture, which actually claimed to explain everything in this way, that is, this complex that is installed in the minds of our fellow citizens. of course, it still exists and it does not allows us to admit the obvious things, the obvious things that for example, byron as a romantic poet is more powerful than pushkin as a romantic poet, for example. however, it is not very clear for people who have this sentiment eh and eh, it's like any

revaluation of values, it's quite difficult . the process still does not end and people preferred not to notice the terrible sides of this soviet history of disabled people to concentrate on some pleasant things like pinocchio sweet water or delicious ice cream, it is convenient to notice the pleasant and not to notice the terrible same thing with russian literature , i.e., the driver of people, to notice the texts that once moved, which were, somewhere, part of their inner world, i don’t know, maybe someone was enlightened by pushkin’s poems there in love, these are

some facts biographies that aren’t like that, just take it out and now you have to admit that pushkin is terrible imperial things, waves, imperial texts are glaring about ukraine for those about ukraine, and in poland about ukraine, which are actually - and the superiority complex is installed and so on, because how to convince them, how can anyone be convinced, because arguments can be proved and a person can accept them or not, well, now the biggest enemy of russian culture and russian literature is russia itself and the political system, because they exist. they will be very they demonstrate well er well, it’s probably a terrible thing that er those er are some features of humanism that er well, after all, they were

in russian literature, they are worthless, they didn’t work, this is literature that didn’t work , no one er thinks that after the crime will come kara yes, that is, the occupiers are not resisted by such ideas , despite the fact that they definitely all taught this test at school, that is, this text does not work, everything happens contrary to these arguments, as for me, it is enough to understand that it is russian literature is one way or another of its own, but a fairly significant part of it is such a component of propaganda, and it is tiresome. it must be resisted, just as any other aggression is resisted. yes, it is a hybrid aggression, it consists of missiles that fly it it consists of of texts that try to convince us of something

poltava pushkin is trying to convince us of what he is trying to convince us that the museum is a reliever yes and then the first one is a great er, it means a reformer who is trying to er, a good thirst to do and in general, he is beautiful, a favorite historical character of the current russian uh, the four-tator, yes, uh, pushkin's poem glorifying peter the great, well, uh , let's understand now that this is uh, some uh. he writes about your country. these are the kinds of things. this is a clear contradiction. you said about masochism, and here i can’t help but immediately ask about bulgakov. there are a

lot of people whom i know, who i worked with, who are my good friends, and they divide bulgakov . they call the writer ukrainophobe and bulgakov. for example, the novel in my opinion is absolutely ukrainophobic. the novel of the white guard is called a great work. in your opinion, should it be noted that ukrainophobe is the same? and is it at all? are you bulgakov's ukraine in football anti-ukrainian ? the position of eh is definitely a white guard author. that is, his ideology is demographic white guard eh and he absolutely did not consider ukrainian culture to be something that is somewhere close to him heavenly and she violates those in general, she

fulfills them with her desire, that is, these petlyura eyes, all of them who appear somewhere there are ghosts of such a white party. these are absolutely extra-cultural figures, yes. that is, it is not culture . there are no tractors, no sentiments towards ukrainian culture, yes, yes, yes, yes, i 'm sorry, i'm going to interrupt you, it was an interesting column vera gay would be a literary critic, which column is in the ukrainian weekly, and she actually wrote this text the text is called ukrainians in the mirror of imperial literature, and here she writes that bulgakov seems to have hated everything ukrainian, not only for purely ideological reasons, but also for certain personal motives, and with the glass

petliurians, the russian classic has some deeper psychological complexes and mental grievances, what do you think, these are private, these private grievances and wrongs are connected with the trauma of the entire imperial culture for, for bulgakov, is it, or is it something else ? when you consider something as your own and it doesn't want to be influenced like that. in other words, someone doesn't want to be influenced. someone doesn't want to be friends like that. someone doesn't want to be in love. someone has their own opinion and this opinion i don't like it, it's clear that in the empire, this position is absolutely clear and bulgakov completely shares it, that is,

he has not only the white guard, he also has other texts where he is clearly of this russian , this russia that they lost, so that is, of this white guard russia, well, right here and there, this is his it is also an anti-soviet protest. it is clear that you are many people. bulgakov , whose texts are for him when you are a ban. and in the 90s, the texts of many others began to appear, and he was, first of all, an anti-soviet author. in this er, well, in this cabin it is to reread e-e with a text like e-e white guard simply did not want to pay attention i will say once again that i do not want, i just fundamentally do not want to discuss the aesthetic level of the test, yes,

the aesthetic level of the texts is the strength of the writer, what level is he, well, at what level he knows the language, there are a lot of good writers in our country, for example , he doesn't care that there is only dante alighieri in the school curriculum on italian literature and that's all and there is no more italian literature, we don't care that there is only don quixote in spanish literature then lorca and everything else, we don't care that there is no one from czech literature there at all. that is, what does it mean that they didn't have good writers, for example, we don't care that there is no tomas manga nobel brother in the foreign literature program at all now if we are going to talk about aesthetic value, so let someone try to prove that the master and margarita is a stronger text than doctor house by tom himself in this argument, it is

impossible to simply end the argument, and then if we admit that well, there are many in the world strong writers then the question why should we study some and ignore others uh-uh the answer is very simple because uh-uh it is built like this actually but it's not really a matter of aesthetic uh um aesthetic appreciation or consequence of some performances it's a matter of just imposing it's a matter of ultimately this imperial strategy than you should read anyone come on you you will read those whom we call the theme of the school curriculum again, returning to it, there seems to be some 9 or 10th grade 10th grade it

is called meaning the pearls of european poetry of our half of the 20th century and there there are, you know , families of figures, there are seven, there is apollinaire, there is lorca, there is rilke, and then there is one from different national literatures of poetry, and then there is a block, there is mayakovsky , yerakhmatova, and uh, there is uh, pasternak, that is, just a question. why are there three of them from europe together? there are four of them all from russia together, this is because i am again well, i want to say i don't want to say that some of them are better or worse as poets, i won't talk about it now, and if it comes to that, why aren't there such anti-chnomists, for example, okay, but we're not talking about that

we're talking about that's why there are these and there are no others in europe, in fact, there are many poets, but if we can't and we can't purely aesthetically determine who is better and who is worse, then the question shifts to the plane that they should shift to the plane of ethics well, in the end the plane of ideology, but now it is not ethical to study them in this situation it is not ethical to study them at all, that's why such a moratorium is needed. and this does not mean that now when some e black squads of literary critics appear who will throw out from home libraries, e-e, there are tons of pushkin's works, e, this is a private matter, a civil country, the internet is not closed here, of course no one will save anyone from reading uh, that means the most uh, such i don't know terry texts, who

wants to read which ones, but school is something else, but public libraries today, well, it's clear , look, you just said about something that of course not there will be a black squad of literary critics. of course , there won't be. but i thought about the fact that the problem is a deeper problem and that, for many people, our compatriots, this cultural framework is a cultural field in which they grew up. this is exactly what it was built for. the book of the world 's best lyrics, which you talked about, mainly people have all their emotional experience, so it is based on the truth. as you rightly said, on russian literature, he sated there in love under the music of virvinshchikov, they they hung out at the university and my mother was young under that,

that is, everything within the framework of russian culture, ukrainian culture , well, about world culture. eh, that is, the same. here is this eh, this is the field that raised them , eh, it remains russian. i am afraid that eh, the generation that grew up with such certain components of conscious biographical eh, it will probably be left alone with these of its own experiences, obviously. i say again, this is a democratic country, no one will force them to give up some of the things that were dear to them if you, uh, they are not ready to reevaluate it, but we are talking about public space, we are talking about reevaluation within the limits

of public space we are talking about revaluation in schools, this is a generation in schools, it is someone with different value orientations, looking at, let's say, byron, again, looking at byron and pushkin. they will not believe that mushkin is better, this is wrong, this is a complex installed through the show. in fact, worldview changes are possible in such a deep way. worldview changes are possible only through the education system, through the system of school education and higher education. well, this is not some kind of mass propaganda for a totalitarian society, but the school needs to be reoriented, it needs to be rid

of these imbalances, and then in some time there will be a generation that will not have these eh i have made such mistakes in a row and will look at the world with different eyes with a free view . such a story, i don't know, maybe you have seen this photo on facebook. at the end of february, a russian soldier left an inscription on the wall of a building in the destroyed gostomel airfield, and this is a quote from gogol's taras bulba, the words of taras that he says to his to son andrii well, son, did your lies help you , if you google it, kill these words in google, you will immediately find a bunch of russian sites and publications

where russians are now especially using this catchphrase of gogol, these are the big-state anti-polish speeches of taras bulba, this is an anti-western word of gogol's, in fact, support for the autocracy his readiness as he once wrote to fall to the russian chest a-a what do you think about it or we eh or we or should we assign him to consider him a ukrainian writer and it was gogol who was hysterical absolutely, if they directly asked him who he loves more, dispersing ukraine, he simply had a tantrum, he did not want to make this choice , but he did not want to give up his ukrainianness in any case, he did not want to give up his ukrainianness, we understand what there are two editions of taras bulba, and most of these speeches mean loyalty to russia, this is all the

second edition, which was revised a few years later, because he was offered to publish it. this was a condition for the publication of his collection of works. yes. he then taras soborna reworked it in the early e-e in the early edition everything is completely different and there e-e the issue is not emphasized, the edition is not imperial , now what to do e-e with gogol, in principle, we do not have to introduce what they do with literary texts, not only gogol but also other literary texts, and not only russian or ukrainian, but european ones, they use them as they want, the dream of zaharova recently announced well, there is about the organ of the 8th 4th, not all about radiansky, but the literaryism that is now in europe and there in the states, and so on it's theirs

problems, you understand that if the system of lies is sufficiently developed, then it can make anyone of anyone anything, that is, what they do with gogol, you are on their conscience, the question is what we can do with gogol. and we can read gogol those things that he first of all, what he himself is on the ukrainian material, this is a powerful ukrainian current and of course you need it as a part of ukrainian literature, of course with an amendment to the situation yes. that is, we understand that in this ukrainian literature, many people wrote in latin a lot who wrote uh, it is in polish, yes. but nevertheless , we of these writers also associate with our ancient literature those texts, which, by the way , are also propagandistic gogol, defined by

forensic and russian vagolologists as the best collaborative texts where dead souls is a question, for example, i do not see it's a great idea if they don't mention the dead in school right away. well, we're preparing the soul and they're talking about how rotten the system of russian society is, and let the russians read it. that is, they need to know about it. nothing has changed it seems like millionaire times, it's just that gogol wrote some very good texts on ukrainian literature, well, here on ukrainian material, so they relate to ukrainian literature, in parallel, he did something less to russian literature , the same with marko vovchok, marko vovchok wrote ukrainian folk tales in ukrainian, it's wonderful, it's wonderful texts they must be studied, we learn the russian-language novels of mark

vovchka. she wrote, that is, she wrote ukrainian women's prose in us, she became such a person by mail, she did uh. by the way , she remembers them for almost a while from bichersk, folk stories come out of her, and then she went and made some more russian prose there. well, uh, and this is a completely different question, we her we don't study these texts at school and they don't belong in general, well, they are known only to literary experts, i think that by god there should be some kind of situation, first of all we should be interested in those texts that were made on ukrainian material and here gogol is very ukrainian because he writes in russian well, this is his choice, it is an unfortunate choice, but we understand that many people feel ukrainian and speak to