therefore, for our life, for ukraine, it is safe, modern , convenient, barrier-free, for this, colossal investments are needed, billions of new technologies, brotherly experience, new institutions, ordinary reforms, and on monday, ukraine will present in lugano a national view of how to implement all this, in fact, this is the largest economic project in europe of our time and extraordinary opportunities to show themselves for each state, for each company that we will invite to work in ukraine, the territory of 10 regions was affected by hostilities after february 24, during this time we managed to free 1,027 2,610 cities and towns are still under russian occupation and most of them need construction, hundreds of them have been completely destroyed by the russian army, in fact they will have to be rebuilt, but in addition

, dozens of cities in other regions of ukraine have been hit by rockets, hundreds of enterprises have been destroyed , among them their complex and very dangerous of production - this is chemistry, this is methodology, of course we have already begun to restore normal life in the liberated communities and territories on our own, but implementing such a large-scale project throughout the country will give new safety standards, first of all, a new quality of life is possible only by attracting international opportunities, therefore the luhansk conference can be an important step for the reconstruction of ukraine, and when we implement this project, i am sure that it will be its countdown, it will be possible from this event, although there is still much, much more to be done a lot for our victory and this is a difficult path because the war continues, but now we must

do everything possible that the aggressor lost not only on the battlefield, but also historical conceptually so that everyone in russia remembers that ukraine cannot be broken by anything by no one and even with a brutal war, today the russian army continued to hit our cities with missiles, only as of the evening there were already six missile strikes, a total of 12 missiles mistakenly landed in donetsk region, airstrikes continued, brutal battles, brutal hostilities continue along the entire front line in the donbass, the epicenter, of course, in the cities of luhansk enemy activity is intensifying in the region, and kharkiv region managed to drive out the occupiers of zvanivskyi kherson region, we continue to put pressure on our state in many rear cities, there is now a sense of relaxation, but the war is not it is over, unfortunately, the cruelty of the water that

you are only increasing and you cannot forget about it , therefore, be sure to help the army, help the volunteers, help everyone who is left alone at this time, and please constantly use all your contacts from abroad, all your informational opportunities even just social networks to spread the truth about the war and about the crimes of the occupiers on our land tomorrow during the new week will be important for ukraine, negotiations , meetings, diplomatic activity will not decrease no matter how difficult it may be, today we must remember what will happen tomorrow and that tomorrow should bring maximum benefit to ukraine, everyone should do everything absolutely

possible for this thank you to all our defenders. thank you to all our defenders. you guys are strong. glory to ukraine. glory to the heroes . let's talk about the topic that our colleagues from tsn have already touched on, the first large-scale invasion of russia into ukraine, the issue of emigration is very acute. the expert says that demographic losses due to emigration will range from half a million to 5 million , depending on how long the war will last. well, we will look at the migration processes from the point of view from the point of view of history, because during the two wars for independence, which we introduced against the muscovites, these migration processes were quite significant.

the first war was introduced by ivan mazepa. this is the beginning of the xviii century, then we were forced to retreat, the cossacks left for the territory of the ottoman empire, together with mazepa, the entire elite left, the entire middle class, and what we lost then is such an interesting question, and we lost it then. this is what, as an example, the orlyk constitution is known, now it is on our on television screens and it was written already in exile, few people know about it, but it never gained legal force on the territory of ukraine, our state, and if all this elite that left, the cossack elite, remained in ukraine, then 300 years ago we would have lived for own constitution, which was not even in the most developed countries of the world, not that of europe. the second war of independence against moscow took place a hundred years ago. then there was also a massive brain drain . what did we lose in those wars due to emigration and how long did it take to recover? we will talk about it with the guests of our studio. and i would like to note here that

we do not draw historical parallels. because we lost those two wars, we were forced to emigrate. now the war is going on, we will definitely win, but the migration processes are continuing. well, let's look at them from we will discuss the historical perspective with the historian oleksandr alfiorov, who is well-known to us already from the last broadcasts, and also with mykhailo vinnytskyi, a doctor of economic sociology, and historians from vinnytsia by first education also have an interesting personal history after the second world war, his project emigrated to canada, mr. mykhailo was also born there, but in 28 years ago decided to move to ukraine let's divide our conversation into two parts yes yes first let's talk about how the two waves of emigration are caused by these two wars for independence at the beginning of the 18th century at the beginning of the 20th century had an impact on our country how long did we rebuild this is the first part of the conversation and the second

part of the conversation will talk about modernity what is happening now with emigration with the demographic situation and how to return ukrainians home by taking to the attention of these history lessons and here is a question for the first time, gentlemen. we welcome you to the broadcast of the 1+1 tv channel, and the first question has such a historical excursion. we will probably start with mr. oleksandr a-a, this is the beginning of the 18th century in the 18th century, our troops fought for independence against the muscovites, but the battle of poltava is such an event that we know that forced our entire elite to retreat together with the swedish army. ivan mazepa retreated with his cossack foreman, and they asked for asylum in the ottoman empire . there they went to the moldavian territory in bandera. settled er and here oleksandr, i have a question for you and what did we lose when all this elite left ukraine thank you, this is really interesting and you know it

is absolutely fair to raise such questions, what do they say about well, not the 20th century exclusively like that, but speaking of the overall historical perspective and i want to emphasize that when we talk about the 18th tape, here we have several such markers at once in the context of this issue . not all of the elders came from ukraine, but they were representatives of the highest aristocracy. let's say this in the european sense of the words of the mazepa clan, that is, higher than his representatives of the state, his friends, well, in fact, all these mazepa corporations and here we must emphasize that even in the 18th century, we still had senior officers, for example, elites, when catherine ii destroyed the zaporozhian sich, and finally the end of the 18th century - this is when these zaporozhians of our ukrainians were

reformed. of the imperial army against the turks and planned that they were promised land in the south of ukraine, they were resettled in the kuban. so here we are talking about the context of mazepa - this is the resettlement of the elite in the context of, for example, the end of the 18th century, this resettlement thousands of families, yes, if we are talking about the elite in mazepinsk, then we must understand that first of all, we create an exile government headed by er, pylyp orlyk mazepa dies in i abroad , but here we also have to understand how ungrateful er canvas is our historical one, on the 28th we celebrated the constitution day, everyone talked about the constitution of pylyp orlyk, but for example , we forget about pylyp orlyk after 1710. and he lived in emigration for another 30 years.

is called grigor's son to the french work, that is, he created a huge such a product, and we are talking about the fact that, for example, there are his diaries, which, actually, i and the team took everyone to translate with polish beats, latin and french are enormous there, but how much we do not see we do not even understand this identity of ours and it is clear that we would like to clarify what we have lost after all. it was that we have lost a large stratum of intellectuals, or primarily intellectuals and those people who were capable to create strong figures, that is, we lost jesus, first of all, strong charismatic figures were with ivan mazepa, of course there was another colonel, another sergeant, who, for example, were sent before this peter the first to the northern front, and they did not manage to reach mazepa, for example, the same ivan skoropadskyi already during the battle of poltava, he says to mazepa, i will call you back, and mazepa says it is not necessary, because you

will be destroyed during the transition, save yourself, that is, i am talking about the fact that the people of mazepin are this dobaika what are we talking about, the mazepin people, this is the elite that grew up under mazepa's eyes at the expense of that wealth that had no excuse in monetary release, and this is this elite, there really is a part of them that emigrated, and then, by the way, they were stolen from russia, oleksandr, here, i would like to talk to include mr. mykhailo because this is such an interesting very moment, in fact, uh, now that we touched on, we showed the big minus of emigration, so that a great intellectual plate left ukraine, but there is another side to it. i would like to ask mykhailo for sure history, for example. we have a well-known example - this is razumovsky, who made a career as a hetman from a shepherd and made a career as a count, and it happened after that. he was given the title of count, and it happened after the entire elite left ukraine. when the migration

processes take place, do social elevators work, uh, is n’t that right, and isn’t this too? well, look at this kind of conditional plus of emigration, in fact, it seems to me that we need to talk not only about the issues of because if you go back to orlyk's question. for example, we have a situation where in 1710-11 pylyp orlyk arrives and we forget that the french revolution takes place 70 years later, which means that in fact some of the ideas with which pylyp orlyk left actually became part of the pan-european heritage so those ideas that actually became the core of the french revolution , which actually changed everything on the european continent, let's now go back to the 20th century, or actually to the end of the 19th, the beginning

of the 20th century, we have emigration from ukraine from at the beginning for economic reasons and first to canada to the united states - these are farmers who are looking for new well there uh, let's say new benefits uh, because of the fact that canada, for example, gives out land for free later after the first world war, the second world war in this period between war we have a period of economic emigration, again of workers who go mainly to north america, for whom europe is actually a kind of transit in order to get to the new world, and here we have emigration to south america and australia to of north america, but the fact that this is again economic emigration after the second world war, political emigration appears in us, it is most similar to the one you talked about in relation to mazepa, in relation to it is possible to talk about petliura and so on, these are people who left because the system that they wanted to see in ukraine he lost he lost he did not

succeed in the war he did not succeed we are talking about the fact that we are now in the wrong situation we are not in the situation where something did not work out for us yes we have temporary migration quite a large number of those the people who left are people who, in fact, we must honestly say, under the pretext of the war, were looking for economic, improved benefits, and some of those who were really fleeing from uh, from bombs, from uh, where uh, well, russian aggression and so on, and that's all for now there are people who left temporarily, but what is very important is that they left temporarily, studies show that they start to put down roots in their new states approximately 2-3 years after settlement. accordingly, we are still definitely not in a situation where we can say that these people are lost so some of

those who left for economic reasons actually saw a better life for themselves there and will stay there, but i personally do not think that this is a big tragedy , because let's take an honest look. today, the countries that most support ukraine in our military confrontation against the aggressor are all countries that have very significant or the diaspora or the country of settlement of ukrainians autotone is meant, for example poland otherwise, with ukrainian origin, for a polish politician, for a canadian politician, for an american politician, the fact that he has a large enough compactly living part of his voters who care about ukraine is a strong enough incentive to support ukraine, and

not in the short term, but in the long term, both in reconstruction and in general uh, questions about, uh, resistance to russian aggression. of them, their descendants, such as myself or my parents, left as children during the second world war, some of them will see their opportunities for self-realization precisely in ukraine, which will be rebuilt, unfortunately, not all of them, a large part of those who leave for economic reasons will not see their opportunities until self-realization immediately after the war because we have frankly speaking, they will settle there and be successful there in 10-20 years, they will also be ukrainian ambassadors to a certain extent like your compatriot, for example, khrystia freeland who has already been the minister of economy

and foreign affairs and despite the fact that she is a canadian citizen, she is the ambassador of ukraine or ms. iryna from nizhyn, i will not remember the american surnames, who became the first congresswoman from ukraine to come to america . likewise, she promotes ukraine, that is, can we say that people who will be successful there , they will remain ours to a certain extent and will promote ukraine there. halinka i apologize and speaks ukrainian at home, it is obvious that it is not the case that ambassadors christi frila is currently the deputy of justin labor, meaning the second person in the canadian government, the best ally ukraine is among the people who have influence, the big seven could not

have, look, we really we have to understand that we are a country that has, as it were, a nation that has its own world and status, it is meant that ukrainianness is a world phenomenon, we very often in ukraine think of ukrainians as citizens of ukraine and that that's fine, but we have to understand that approximately 20 million ukrainians are people who are self-identified throughout the country, both from the territory and with their homes, living outside ukraine and, unfortunately, the ukrainian state for today, i will still say ukrainian society, also unfortunately he considers these people as such, who are lost, who have left, and this is wrong. let 's learn from our brothers in israel, from the jews, the jews have a diaspora all over the world, throughout the country, they are like that. israel has existed for 70 years, an independent country, israel, but a country, a state

israel could not exist and would not be so successful if it were not for the american diaspora of jews, so we can talk about the ukrainian disk every time that we in ukraine had crises, one maidan, another maidan, now there is a war and so on. - this is not the loss of mr. mykhailo, your opinion is clear, and now i would like to ask mr. oleksandr a question. now we have already moved into the 20th century, how can we not remember our republican chapel, i will tell you what this is this this everyone knows shchedryk, who became the carol of the bell, the christmas hymn, and in fact this was a piece of cultural diplomacy from petlyura, the leader of the ukrainian state, who fought for independence then for the second, the second struggle for independence against the bolsheviks, and our shchedryk

was sent a choir with shchedryk because sent on a tour of europe and america, they visited a bunch of countries uh, they had top uh politicians, cultural figures uh, the queen of belgium and the prime minister signed their names in the book of reviews and so on, but there was a very big drama here because they became superstars in the west in europe and america but could not return home. then, due to military and political reasons, this is now the case. well, we know for sure and believe that it will not happen to our cultural ambassadors abroad who promote the ukrainian idea, ukrainian culture and oleksandr, i have a question for you from a historical point of view: how to prevent these dramas that happened with this republican chapel that made ukraine famous to the whole world but was essentially forgotten at home, it is really interesting to note here that in fact

we have many examples of such cultural ambassadors in ukraine, more well-known and less well- known, but here, you know, i would start with the fact that when we talk about ukrainians, let's think with you why it happens that we, for example get into so that through the environment we do not blur in the cultural component, on the contrary, we can integrate into the new rules, but we do not blur, because look, for example, when the chinese community comes to the united states states of america, conditionally or to canada, they form a teahouse town, a closed town in which they absolutely feel good there, these restaurants, everything is guarded, everything is theirs, yes, ukrainians, when they appear, they begin to form a society, the shevchenko society of enlightenment, a greek-catholic school of group singing, a group of vechornytsia dances - this is typical for us, and at the same time we gave examples of wonderful men who now occupy prominent positions , that is, we can say about ukrainians that, for example, well, we have this mental similarity, we are not italians

who will immediately start there to create some structures of underground trade. russians who come abroad do not lose their language. they try to create a racket. they are not the first to create a racket . so -called children's camps, camps for displaced persons that existed in the 45th year in europe until the year 502, and in these camps, collections of ukrainian poems were published, an incredible number of books were published was issued by a sports association, here we are, here is the ability, and here is what it comes from, and it is because of geography. friends, to the east of us is the eurasian civilization. to the south of us is the islamic muslim civilization. we are part of the european organization and this is constantly beating the way, constantly communicating with other peoples with

other representatives forces us to always look at a foreigner so that you can negotiate with him, communicate with him, not forget your own, but learn from someone else's. and all this is created precisely at the expense of of this location of our ukraine i used to write poems to myself hetman ivan mazepa oh says that seagull on the buza that curls a nest on the busy road had here what here from the steppe always came to us somewhere something will happen in china and nomads will pass through this steppe to us so we are still on this is the rarefaction between civilizations and we are trained to live and that is why bohdan khmelnytskyi was a coffee drinker and drank coffee and that is why our hetmans smoked hookah messes because we knew how to take and even the title of hetmans took the germans haupt she understands that way to take advantage of this, and that's why ukrainians would like people who are now enriching themselves with this experience to return

to ukraine and for sure. how does israel, on the contrary, appreciate the people we have abroad, er, use them in the good sense of the word, and i immediately remembered that about a year and a half ago, at one of the first meetings with the american diaspora with the canadian diaspora from zelensky was of the opinion that we would create some way so that those people who are now ukrainians living in america and canada could have dual citizenship . i am not sure how far we have progressed in legally involving these children for the benefit of ukraine. if possible, tell us briefly your story, is it easy for you? i managed to get a ukrainian passport, well, it was definitely not easy for me to get it, i got it after 17 years of living in ukraine, i can say that one of the reasons why i got it was what was my main motivation for becoming a citizen of ukraine because i have lived here, as i said , for 17 years, i arrived when i was already 33, and also at

such a mature age, and i also had this feeling of being a stranger among my own, yes, and in ukraine , identity is connected with citizenship, it is very clearly connected with citizenship, and i very often remember such conversations, well, yes, yes, mr. mykhailo, but tell me, please. what kind of passport do you have? to all now fellow citizens of ukraine, we mean that our responsibility today is especially wartime , especially the time when ukraine needs and actually this global ukrainianness is to understand that those 20 million who live outside ukraine and who are unlikely to ever be citizens of ukraine. they are also us. they are also a part of who we are. we need this territory as home

is meant to us by all ukrainians in the world, it is extremely important if we talk about my personal motivation, why did i come, i really don't like how they tell me that i returned to ukraine, i was born in canada i was formed in canada i was educated in canada and in great britain and it so happened that i decided to immigrate to ukraine and the reason was very simple, i saw huge opportunities for self-realization for myself here, it sounds very strange because it is obviously not economic self-realization. and this is an opportunity to influence the development of events. this is an opportunity to be yourself. this is an opportunity to be part of that society. if you want that family, which lies somewhere deep in my roots. yes, i do not think that this is some kind of patriotic service. it was not a sacrifice at all. on the contrary, in my case, i will actually use it very much. if i had the choice again 20 years ago, i would make the choice that i made today, that i made, i would definitely make it again, but in

any case, that you are a teacher of the mohyla academy not only realize yourself and also educate our elite, including students. well, i want to say that i am also a very happy husband of a fantastic wife, we have four children together, but in any case, we are talking about what is this country for those people who want self-realization is now very important, the price for self-realization is a risk, there is a large part of people who do not want to risk their lives, they want comfort. these are the people who are fleeing. these are the people who are now leaving. to proudly call it that is to create the conditions of comfort after the end of the war so

that people who for one reason or another found themselves outside of ukraine feel comfortable here, and this is actually an extremely big challenge that this is a challenge for the state, this is a challenge for society, friends, we mean that people in the diaspora very often come to ukraine and consider themselves second- class, we do not perceive them as full-fledged ukrainians, we see them as everyone else and this is wrong, and friends, i am asking you very much that this and the thing we have to learn from this war from this challenge is that ukraine is a world nation, it is a nation where a third of us live outside of ukraine, and it is our responsibility to those who live in ukraine to make that third feel that this land is also their own, because in reality when people feel that they belong to two countries , it is meant either in canada or france or in denmark or in america and also in ukraine, this only

strengthens our world ukrainian, a very good opinion from you would be heard, even we ukrainians probably do not always notice how many opportunities there are is in ukraine not for self-realization and to mr. oleksandr i would like to ask a question, we have already found one marker ukraine is a place where you can be successful and what else is possible is such a recipe that history gives us how to return those who left ah-ah, this seems like a good first such message to me. and what else can we take from history to make such a list for ukrainians who left, which would convince him to return? well, first of all, i will say that i am in solidarity with mr. mykhaylov about what we have with him wonderful wives and children, and secondly, i would like to say that in fact, when we talk about ukrainians, i always feel solidarity there, too, because many people from the public sector, let's say, have such beliefs that it is necessary to take a foreigner and if

the resolution all started with jeans in the 90s. it really started with a wallet. a lot of people pulled, pulled diasporas, everything that could be pulled. in fact, i believe that we need to invest money in the diaspora, in fact, because these are the people who advocate for ukraine, and we need not just wait from them, you know that they will give the premises, yes, or grants, or they will give some money. we need to support these scientific institutions, which in the 20th century collected all the archives of the soldiers of the army, the energy of the diaspora, the hetmans of khmelnytskyi the people of bandera, they are all really a pity, today we see that the representatives of this diaspora, who dragged these academics in the institution, to keep this scumbag going, that is why ukraine today should never help our diaspora, first of all, by preserving the treasures of the nation that are there across the oceans or the european contingent on the other hand, we need