it's fast and it's also not foreseen, so who will succeed boris johnson we will see very soon the name of the new leader we will hear on september 5 grigory thank you bbc correspondent olga palamaryuk and that's all for today more stories search on our website bbc.ua see you tomorrow at 21:00 glory to ukraine, this program is the verdict, my name is serhiy rudenko. good day and good health to all, about the participation of belarusians in the russian-ukrainian war, putin's gas blackmail of europe, the announced offensive of the ukrainian army in the south, we are talking today with our guest is the minister of foreign affairs of ukraine in 2007-2009, politician and diplomat volodymyr

hryshko, mr. volodymyr, i am glad to welcome you to our program, i wish you good health . political, military, diplomatic, we will still win without a doubt, let's start with putin's gas blackmail, because we have been watching for the last few days how the russian federation is reducing the supply of gas to of western europe, at the same time, bruno lemer, the minister in france, said that the french government is preparing to completely stop the supply of russian gas to the russian government. and actually, the topic of russian gas is still relevant. because on july 10, canada announced that it would return the repaired

siemens turbine that was under repair in canada, which is necessary for the pumping of gas on the northern stream, the ukrainian side reacted quite harshly to this, saying that it is not possible under a sanctioned state in what way to encourage the violation of international rules since there are sanctions and this country should be under strict sanctions, let's listen to what volodymyr zelenskyi said about this story with the gas turbine , because it is very important and relevant for the current system of sanctions that will be against the russian federation. the ministry of foreign affairs had to summon the representative of canada in our to the state due to an absolutely unacceptable exception to the sanctions regime against russia, this concerns not just some turbine for the nord stream gas pipeline, which canada should not have, but still decided to hand it over to russia in fact, it

concerns the common rules, if a terrorist state can squeeze out such an exception to sanctions, then what exceptions will it want tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, this question is very dangerous, and dangerous not only for ukraine, but for all countries of the democratic world, the decision on a sanction exception will be accepted in moscow exclusively as a manifestation of weakness , such is their logic, right now you can have no doubt that russia will try not just to limit as much as possible, but to completely stop them at the most acute moment the supply of gas to europe is exactly what we need to prepare for now, this is exactly what is being provoked, because every concession in such conditions is perceived by the russian leadership as an incentive for further stronger pressure, mr. volodymyr, as the minister of foreign affairs of ukraine, you witnessed more than one gas blackmail of the russian federation, i remember very well and the seventh and eighth 2007-2007 the eighth and 2009 years

when russia simply put the ukrainian state in front of the fact that gas may not be available in the winter , that gas may be too expensive, what will it be it is unacceptable for businesses and for citizens, but you are now observing the gas blackmail of european states, what can you say about this practice that has existed for a long time, we have tried it on ourselves for a long time, but now we see how the russian federation is actually dispersing this practice six months before winter the topic of the lack of gas and the blackmail of europe, well, you know, mr. sergey, i really, when i hear these messages about turbines and about repairs , pseudo-repairs, and so on, i definitely remember what we experienced in 2006 and 2009 years when

er, so demonstratively, under the camera, they covered the gas valve for supplying it to ukraine when we were accused of stealing six with slogans and so on to the western partners, what is this, this is blackmail, this is a weapon, this is a way to bring people to their knees, etc. for god's sake, they will draw conclusions from this today if it were more delicate to say well, ms. sakharova’s next submission on her telegram channel and she knows now with such a uh well, uh, with such

skepticism she says, and how is all this european green energy when uh well, there he lists the countries that are restoring thermal power plants that are restoring coal mining and so on and so forth, nothing eh, they are really eh. they will survive these two winters in rather difficult conditions, just like us , by the way, but eh- e in exactly two years, i think that the end of the 23rd year and the beginning of the 24th will be the last in the winter, when russia sold its gas, er, its oil, its coal to european countries. and then i think that they will sing a sad song there because you can blackmail , you can block the gas pipeline there, you can repair it for months there and the like. but when there is nowhere to go for gas, the gas

the wells will begin to be blocked and it will no longer be possible to restore it, that's why we all perfectly understand what this means for the economy of the russian federation as this gas station that lives mainly at the expense of energy sources, so i think that in europe it is necessary to clearly and clearly understand what energy from russia is, and dependence is self-dependence and this is dependence. that is why we must finally get rid of it, we must survive several unpleasant months, but it is impossible to solve the situation in any other way. well, in russia, there was this tool that influenced not only ukrainian politics in ukrainian politics, a lot of people became multi-millionaires or billionaires thanks to this gas, and then it actually all got out of our hands since 2014, when it became clear that a very large, large number of politicians

ukrainians were dependent on russia. it was also on russian gas. we also observed it in europe, well, at least in the position behind hungary. i understand that the energy component there was quite large and remains quite large, since oil and gas enter europe and other countries through hungary. in what way did europe miss this moment when gas became a political weapon for russia, how did it happen that the whole of europe actually sat on the gas needle of the russian federation, well, mr. serhiu, in fact, the tools are what about ukraine that in relation to western europe, they are the same and you mentioned them, this is corruption, this is blackmail and bribery. well, what do we not remember about our political figures with gas crowns on their heads?

what do we not know that we don't know how they were bought, sold and resold, well , it's well known, well, some got off easily, some are sitting, did he sit in an american prison for 10 years, well, life was different, but tools of russian politics were the same er well, by chance mr er, chairs in moscow in a restaurant and then nervousness for unconditionally or not. it’s not that simple, is it the same fionn, er, former prime minister of france, and so on. that is, it’s all er, far er and deeply planned operations that actually corrupted both the ukrainian leadership and the western ones, and the answer

to this question is a lot, just less, well , less desire for money, unfortunately, in our country and in the west, politicians suffer from this disease very, very strongly, well, this is canada's decision to return this turbine , ottawa explains by saying that in this way, er, this the move supports europe's ability to have access to reliable energy while the europeans continue to refuse russian oil and gas in the face of this never-ending number of sanctions that are being imposed against the russian federation canada's departure from this sanctions practice what does this mean does this mean that moscow will perceive this as a certain step backwards and that in

this way moscow will gradually achieve the cancellation of the sanctions that currently exist against russian politicians and against the russian economy against ordinary russians, well, you know , there are many different opinions about this turbine, and i at least heard specialists who said that technologically, this is not a problem at all, because there are enough other turbines that are able to pump pump this gas. it may not be, but this is not a critical moment here, in fact , uh, russian blackmail, which well, now uh, has it revealed itself in full force, or is the refusal uh, on the part of canada, dramatic for us? i think no, i don't think it's uh- e will mean that russia will be

to dictate the events in our own terms, we have already passed this stage and there will be no more. well, there will be an attempt to find some, well, some certain compromises, and in order to somehow hold on for these years, well, look at the european commission after lithuania regarding the transit of russian goods in the crimean region now, and lithuania says no, we are acting absolutely within the framework of the sanctions that already exist and the european commission cannot do anything with lithuania. well, here i see in this canadian history that it is mainly a trace of germany, the pressure of germany on he will try canada to convince the canadians that without this turbine, it will be very bad in germany or there will be an economic collapse and so on and so forth. this is not true even if you imagine that the nord stream alone will simply completely cease to exist, but

god forbid something happened there, it is the gas transportation system of ukraine which can transport up to 130 billion cubic meters of gas every year. this is more than the two northern streams combined, so in principle there is no problem here at all. to the e-e canadian government e-e contribute to the fact that, as there in germany in particular, they like to say not to raise the degree by escalation, actually i think this is an explanation of what is happening to the future of the sanctions. i think that this will not affect in any way e-e we know that the next seventh package of sanctions is already being prepared, they will be prepared in the same way, that is, this ice rink will go on , of course there will be certain nuances, but all the same, the ice rink is going and the russian economy

is cracking because of that well, we will just have to on for a certain period of time, i do not for nothing mention winter and gas because, mr. volodymyr, it will be interesting to simply observe how the leaders of the european states of western europe will react to the demands or to any claims against the citizens of these countries in the event that they are cold in their homes, they will not will there be enough gas, do you think there is a danger that this winter the sanctions against the russian federation will still be eased because of this winter because of the difficult situation that will be obvious in europe , well, in ukraine, it will definitely be difficult. sergey, we have a little less than half a year before winter, and a lot will depend on how the

armed forces of ukraine end their summer-autumn operation, i think that if it goes as planned and about what we have been talking for more than one day, if it ends with the successful liberation of all ukrainian lands or at least 99% of them are occupied, then i think that the situation will change radically both politically and economically and internationally. therefore, it is still too early to talk about it to speak but if the situation is will remain as it is for europe, we just have to start a very broad campaign

of clarification in the countries of the european union and nato that this is actually a payment for the policy that the governments of these countries have been conducting in relation to in russia over the past 30 years, this is really something that costs money, because it was impossible to make completely inadequate decisions, the same as germany . -45%, well, this is above all possible limits. you can't do that so it was either some kind of uh-low calculation that everything will be good, you dear vladimir will be a good uh president, or it is uh, well, just some

malicious actions against his own country, so what then do i think that german citizens will have to ask with the previous leadership, why did this happen and why did germany end up as a hostage of the fascist russian regime? well, actually, this is what i think will have to be started in the near future so that by the winter, the german public will also conditionally ask such questions started put your scales well, you are absolutely right that we still have a long way to go, and it is unclear what the consequences of the offensive of the ukrainian army and the use of western weapons will be. over the past few days, we have seen warehouses burning in the occupied areas in the occupied areas of the kherson region, donetsk luhansk region. that is, this is only the beginning a big offensive

and the start of a big war already in ukraine to protect our territory from the russian federation. however, we are still waiting for a meeting of the so-called rammstein group on july 20. the pentagon of the secretary of defense of the united states of america, lloyd austin, told our minister of defense oleksiy reznikov that such and such a meeting will take place, and it is clear that they have already met twice in this format. er, in an expanded composition, this group er met and discussed aid to ukraine, or rather , this group of 40 ministers of defense, more than 40

ministers of defense participate in this rammstein and they will support ukraine to the end. what can we expect from the third rammstein, considering that the whole world, including the ministers of these forty countries , saw that the ukrainian army is ready to fight to the end, to victory, to the end? well, i think we can expect a continuation of this line. i think that you are absolutely right when the military sees that their help gives results, that the ukrainian armed forces use this latest equipment even better than it could be used by their own armed forces, and this is really a colossal advertisement for this weapon look at the background of the fact that on this wave s-400 eh, which russia is

selling for billions, including excuse me. unfortunately, and the allied composer, i mean turkey, they turn out to be powerless in the same aymers. that means that eh well, the ukrainian armed forces are in real conditions, not theoretical ones, they are there on the training grounds, but in real conditions, they demonstrate that western models of equipment are an order of magnitude higher, more technological, more successful than russian ones. that is, by the way, this is also another blow to such an important branch of the russian economy, export there is a lot of weapons, but this is about as much as russia will receive from the export of its gold. so, drop by drop, it adds up to a very serious negative for the russian economy, which ultimately will not fulfill this, but going back to rammstein, that

is , this means that the ukrainian armed forces actually open up opportunities for our western partners to demonstrate the advantages of their offensive and defensive weapons with the hands of ukrainians, because really, hmm, our heroes they show what it is to learn quickly and what it is to apply it qualitatively. and those compositions performed by sergiya mentioned are a wonderful confirmation . i am not talking about the fact that in the case when enough forces have been accumulated and a few, let's say, cities in the south or in the east, it will be er again er released by ukrainian er fighters, so bigger and better

advertising in order to supply weapons further, in my opinion, there is no, by the way, about the weapons used by russia and the supply of these weapons, information appeared about that iran plans to supply hundreds of combat drones to russia for use in the war against ukraine. this was announced by jake sullivan, the national security adviser to the president of the united states of america. according to him, this confirms the data that the russian military is facing difficulties in providing the military with weapons after losses. now, when we talk about the current russian - the ukrainian war, of course we say who is our friend and who is our enemy, and of course there are many questions now about iran as a country that is ready to sell hundreds of combat drones to russia and what this situation looks like

you are a picture for the russian federation as a person who very well characterizes the security system and the system of mutual relations in the world. what can you say about the current allies of the russian federation and about those who believe that russia in this form should not exist, and even more so with vladimir at the head putin". we called these countries of the saratnik, we are night regimes and thank god that they are er. well, two times and there is no one we can count on to er in a non-democratic paradigm of development and in an autocratic one, there is no language about human rights

at all, where he said, and that was the end of it, all debates stopped and so on. that is, it is a very limited and narrow circle of ukraine, but you know, we are not so concerned these are all despotic regimes, how does the very appeal of the russian federation to them for help mean the collapse of the myth that russia imposed on the world, we are the strongest, we are the best, we are the most powerful, we, we, if four months later, there will be no more war in russia what to fight if it turns to iran for bayraktars there or for drones, i think that maybe they don’t have baktars eh and the quality of their eh armed

forces is significantly inferior eh well, let’s say the same turkish qualities if moscow deconserves tanks from the 60s and this is a pile of metal - it's scrap metal that just keeps going and that shoots eh into the sky and not a mission, then this means that the russian military machine will soon collapse eh and you know this appeal of the russians to the iranians even more confirms in his mind that it is very soon er, ukraine er will have a real not only psychological but also a practical advantage on the battlefield, because no matter how many drones iran has provided there, it is nothing compared to this help that will go after

the same ramstein four after it finally works er is full to the full extent of the american swan and believe me, we are now approaching the point when russia will reduce its potential and ukraine will increase it and from this point we will count the days until our complete victory, we all remember and saw it as sergey lavrov was boycotted at the meeting of the foreign ministers of the g20 and we remember what lavrov said about it , but now lavrov's mouth is maria zakharova saying that russia can boycott the g20 meeting , how do you feel about the future the meeting that should take place in november 2022

in indonesia and where vladimir putin was invited , do you think he will come there or not, or is it possible for the president of indonesia to invite putin, considering what was happening actually it is happening in ukraine or will this boycott be in the style of the soviet union when hmm soviet athletes boycotted the olympics that took place in the united states of america you know i have already spoken about this and now i can only repeat once again that russian diplomacy has long ceased to exist she is not there and mr. lavrov has not been the minister of foreign affairs and the minister of propaganda for a long time and his entire structure is the ministry of

propaganda what zakharova says. skabeeva there, vsimanyan, er, solovyov, and other selected propagandists are one and the same, so er, there is nothing really new here, and we all understand that the situation with diplomacy in russia will not improve in any way until that moment. well, no less than this the regime will not go down in history relative to lavrov himself. well, you see, if you sold your soul to the devil, you have to dance to his tune, and i think that he perfectly understood what kind of meeting they would arrange for him in indonesia, but in the meantime he had to go because he that's what he said

i went and got a real rehearsal of everything that happened there, or if putin comes there in november, i think the situation will be even worse than it was then. do you remember in australia when he sat alone somewhere at a table where no one wanted to sit next to him approach, it's the same thing. i think what will happen now if he risks not passing, but i think that this will not happen, because this is another way to show him personally that they do not want a union with him, that they do not want to shake his hand. do you not want to even stand next to him? in order for it to count it's better to solve some problems , that's why i think that it will be done as usual when a country is expelled, let's say, for betraying europe, then 20 minutes before this decision, russia loudly

declares that it itself is leaving this organization well, there have already been several such cases, too . i think it will happen. and now it is unlikely that the president of indonesia will withdraw his invitation , it was not diplomatic. it would be better not to to create problems neither for indonesians nor for other guests, so i think that there are almost no chances that putin will risk coming to indonesia, mr. volodymyr, i have repeatedly asked you over the past four months whether there are any diplomats or leaders left in the world the state that is ready to shake vladimir putin's hand after the war that he unleashed in ukraine, but as of today, what do you