er, in general, they are dark - this is a movement of people in general, if the logic of the organization is such that these are activists, volunteers, volunteers and you from all over the world, they strive to implement certain ideas, they create in their own countries, yes, eh, these sections are pieces of representation and they, if it helps them the main office functions - it is a secretary within the secretariat, which is located in london , there are a lot of departments, and one of them is the crisis investigation department, and donatella is not the head of this department. she is older advises this department. so, i will simply remind those who do not understand why i am asking about danyla rover before the meteorover. this is the same person who gave a comment on the scandalous cbs story about the disappearance of western weapons in ukraine. she told journalists that they had not seen western weapons in ukraine and pointed examples of how

weapons disappeared in iraq and afghanistan, that is, can we say that donatellarovera had nothing to do with the report on ukraine, which we are not talking about now, no , why? your question is unclear. why not she had a relationship because she is on the council in the central office of the department, well , look at the department, the department is managed by the head of the department, but there is more than one donatella in it. and there is a certain number of researchers who work on different topics in different crises, conflicts, armed conflicts, various situations around the world. that is, she is just one of the researchers who worked, and as far as can be seen from her twitter account, at least she is not the only one who worked on this, er, press realism, she was the main one, but there too other people worked, who i am, unfortunately, i don’t know

, because actually well, i was almost completely removed from this process. and this is generally normal . that the head of the ukrainian office was removed or removed from the process of investigation of research , so how does it work, it is normal. you understand if it was normal why because i have now resigned why because i protested and why would i talk about systemic problems in the organization of course no well , that is, it’s different it’s terrible what is the reason what is the reason and what was the answer to you specifically when you tried to explain the context when you tried to convince the leadership of the internet to take into account the position of the ukrainian office that i am engaged , that i am interested in ivangazovan, that i have a certain position because i am ukrainian, in an interview with roypers

where they seemed to express the very interview in which they will express about the reaction of the ukrainian society and the world in general about their beast, they further insist that they found the ukrainian armed forces next to civilian houses in 19 cities and villages of ukraine, and they say it was offensive civilians at risk. and please tell me whether you spoke in a coherent way or whether they saw pictures of destroyed ukrainian cities, for example mariupol. so why the silence or irpenya, do they understand that if the ukrainian military leaves the city, then they do not protect this city, but give it to looting and rape, or for example these researchers understood the contexts when they say that the ukrainian military learned in schools so they stopped this

school so that they understood that these schools were empty and that it is not prohibited for international humanitarian right, and it was not a tactic like, for example, hamas uses, when they cover these with children. and these people understood these things, according to your opinion, from your point of view. well, i cannot speak for them, because for me, in general, everything that happened absolutely it is unclear and completely contradicts my values. did they know, should they have known ? i might be interested in whether they knew, they should have known . it is their job to know and understand the context and to understand that the context is fundamental and fundamental to making any decision. judgment regarding what before, was there a violation of international humanitarian law. was there a war crime or something else in this case? well, in fact, there is little that is

interesting about me. did they know? months before that, we did a very large investigation about the mariupol trump theater and this was also done by people from researchers from the crisis group, but others and we were very actively involved. i am also in the collection of evidence and well, if you the preparation of this investigation, and in it we are actually the first who at such a systemic, well, to a certain extent, legal level, i would say level a-a, declared that it was the russians who carried out the attack, we developed the versions that the russians said about the fact that you were torn from the inside, that it was the ukrainian military we have actually confirmed that these versions of the russians are untenable or there is russian propaganda. yes, what does it all mean that it is all to the untenable version, they are not confirmed by anything that it was frankly civilian objects and we also said about that

what exactly was the weapon used, that there were two bombs of 500 kg each, where it fell, what kind of destruction it caused, and so if you knew, that is why for me the big question in general is with this climb. what happened because it is not that, you know, we did nothing and suddenly this representative appeared on the 24th, every day was absolutely hellish, as with all of us and everyone. everyone in ukraine has a job to investigate the crimes of russians in ukraine, and it is not clear to me why suddenly he appeared and why i was removed from he why my team was eliminated why we were not informed at all why this all happened in the first place, that is, when we have been working for five months more and we have a certain date and a certain understanding, we are working on the spot and suddenly this happens. that is why it is important for me to say that it was not

some kind of situation no, well, that is, it was not just a vacuum, one press release. it was a long, long, complex work on various uh-uh crimes that the russians committed in ukraine before this omission, an apology, what is the question, what is your assumption, why did it happen, well, what happened, what happened, why, to what extent we were categorically eliminated, why did not take into account the opinion of the ministry of defense, or rather, too late, so they asked the ministry of defense why the position and research of the ukrainian office of the ernensky international was not taken into account. what is your assumption? to resist and maybe i would be more if i could resist everything and

could do it faster, so it is difficult for me to say unequivocally, but it seems to me that in fact it is very often in large organizations that work on you know, the whole world has such an approach that, well, conventionally speaking, all conflicts are the same, that's it. we were there in syria, we know how it works. we were there in south sudan, we are with you. how does it work? here they take the same framework of international humanitarian law and apply it completely thoughtlessly to various conflicts without including the local context and there is a systemic problem. that is, there is no problem in coming and investigating because it is actually how we see it. if the long-term work of a large number of international organizations and local organizations that research buys not conflicts, different situations, but er, specifically in this situation, we see that the inability to see the conflict, the lack

of local expertise, leads to a disaster, and it happened when instead of so and so i read yacheslav olkhachova is a historian and a political scientist, and there is a strange hierarchy of employees at nfc international. he writes that there is a kind of colonial model in its purest form, for example, researchers and foreigners international staff occupies a higher level than the manager, e.e., employees and volunteers of the local office. they replace the values ​​and mission of the organization with simple procedures , er, well, look, myroslava, and one thing

contradicts me, one thing doesn’t contradict the other, actually in this situation, that is, that’s how it turned out, that is, yes, they occupy a higher level, but actually without expertise on instead of their uh they are really well no matter how high level they understand weapons they understand law they understand well that is the truth they are really the best in the world there are experts in their field but not the desire for a deep understanding of the context leads to such consequences that is, yes it is it is true that they are higher than twitter, but what is the value of this higher echelon and the result of the work of this higher saber if instead of the result, which should be the protection of civilians, which should be the protection of human rights, we see russian playing along generatives and we see that civilians have been put in even more danger than before , or in your statement you say that without wanting it, they created a material or created

this report that prevents the support of russian narratives and that's it now you say that russian propaganda played a role, there is another opinion that it is not just the bureaucracy, the inexperienced are also incompetence , many write that this is the work of the russian agency and russian agents of influence in this organization . what do you say? does it seem probable to you? if i could imagine that such a thing is possible, i would never work in this organization, just never. well , it would simply be impossible for me. it is so disgusting and impossible. now to answer this question because i just don't know, well, for me everything that happened is a horror and i can't believe that it happened and

uh . maybe i would never work here because for it is important to me to protect human rights, it is my essence. this is my work, this is my life, this is who, how, and how is it possible to be in an organization that can somewhere? that is, somewhere you have an idea that there may be pro-russian or russian interests . for me, this is so valuable and unacceptable that i don't even know what to answer, well , that is, i'm not sure about anything right now, many people are emphasizing, paying attention . er mass murder er of our ukrainian prisoners of war ukrainian reindeer herders about the attack on the squares of vinnytsia kremenchuk

eh about what president zelensky said he also reprimanded the international that they were eloquently silent about the russian shelling of the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, what is the reason for this approach in your opinion look before, that is, as i thought before, so it was, well, that is, we informed the department of crisis crisis response and the international secretariat about all these horrors and asked them about reaction the truth is that you have to understand that the secretariat is the only one for the whole world and a lot of things are constantly happening in the world, and despite the fact that ukraine, of course, and the war is in such a high focus, it is still if not the only thing that amnesty does... well, if you should look at the world level and before that, if the answers were such that if we cannot react to everything, we

react bere-react precisely where we can a-a that is, it was raisin a-a this recognition in principle is an act of aggression what happened that what actually the russian invasion in itself, from a legal point of view, this is actually the investigation of mariupol, this is sergiyivka, and many other things, that is, the argument was that we can't uh, if we weren't, we couldn't cover or investigate everything that is happening because there is a lot going on in the war constantly and we have to focus our work because we don't have many resources, at least that's what i was told, and here they choose between this, choose uh, which show that they say uh, the ukrainian military endangers the civilian population. doesn't it look strange and suspicious on the one hand

it looks well, that is, if i, well, that is, i don't even know what to say, that is, look, if i had at least some opportunity to influence it if i knew, if i could influence it and whatever well, it wouldn't be in this form, at least because the desire is such a standard in the activities of international organizations to show two sides, no matter what , we have to know and show about two sides and not take either side. was the result the desire to be, er, without outsiders, that is, like if we showed two sides. unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. because if only a little bit of our voice

was listened to. yes, that such information is being collected, at least i would explain that in this situation, even if the organization suddenly decided to collect some data about the ukrainian side and about some violations, it should definitely not come out and communicate in such a way that it has be communicated directly to the ministry of defense , an official meeting must be held at which all this must be discussed, must be studied in detail, and only after i have indisputable evidence can the option of speaking about it publicly be considered, in principle, because it will definitely be used by the aggressor side in this, you said that if i knew that such a study was being conducted, the study was published on

the fourth of august. and when you found out that it was being conducted how many days before publication look here, something else is even more important. i literally learned from twitter that the data was collected in may and june. that is, i did not know in may or june that such information was being collected at all . i did not know that such information was planned, such a study is there, uh, at all, if the international secretariat is looking in this direction in principle, and they are also interested in the topic in general, and this seems to me to be the most important thing, that is, at the time when the researchers were there, they were in ukraine, we are in ukraine, nobody knows about it. not said, that is, the data collection itself took place without our participation and without even notifying us people in ukraine that this was happening, and it seems to me that this is, well, for me. maybe because i was inside the

organization, this is some other very personal a-a personal misunderstanding. how is it it is at all possible. that is , you come to the country and you hide from the people who work in this country that you are collecting such data . how is it even possible and criticism of the ms internet is not only about international, but also about other human rights organizations and not only about human rights violations organizations about their helplessness and unprincipledness and, er, such er, some kind of inability to distinguish between good and evil, the inability to think in

context and not out of context. it became known that the founder of the swedish branch of ms international is pervestberg, who worked for decades, it seems like 50 or 60 years, so he worked in the container, and today, as a sign of protest, he decided to leave this organization because of a statement on ukraine, do you think a that she should resign from her post, hmm, the general secretary of this organization, agneska lamaria, who very aggressively defended the report on ukraine. i think that this is a question, well, look at her dismissal or not , that is the decision here, the question is not even for her, but for the international board, because in such i'm sorry, in international management, the board is an english english word. the fact is that she is an employee hired by the movement

. the question of how the data collection is done, how the field work is done, look at the dismissal itself - it would be a good ethical step, everything is clear, but also the question is that the organization remains and if the organization does not make systemic changes within itself, it will do the same through three months after six months in another country , she will do the same systemic actions and therefore for me as a person who gave 7 years of life believing in all values, the big question is why the international government is now urgent in principle not considers the question of how to change the approaches of the organization if it is a movement if it is directed to the affairs as they claim not to help people not to have the person at the center not to achieve

justice then why in this situation and urgent action is taken in order to in principle, to review the work and it seems to me that we would win because to fire one person, i left because these are my principles, i cannot stay in an organization that simply acts like this to my country, to me personally, it is not in my values, if the head of the organization leaves. or someone else, it may be their decision. for me, the question in the organization is a huge organization that has a huge influence on the world level. and if we want real changes, then we must demand this from the organization in the first place, which will say i reviewed my processes now you will yes, i'm sorry, please we were wrong i really want to see such lessons as you saw that all

the employees of the ukrainian office should resign, because, after everything that happened to continue human rights activities well, after such a reputational blow, it is no longer possible, and as i have already quoted the british edition of the times, they actually call the international itself putin's propagandists and call for them to leave the stage, and i understand. i understand your answers to the previous question, but please tell me about regarding the ukrainian office, how can people now work in kyiv? well, first of all, i am not the only one who quit, and it is also necessary to understand that some people left. but again, well, that is, a person has to make decisions for yourself independently, taking into account how a person develops a vision of his life in general and any changes, because if, for example, the ukrainian office is closed at amnesty international

, it will not stop working. and this must also be understood, it will not stop working. therefore, i want to return to this as the bigger question is what is possible for people who would stay they could at least now thanks to this pressure thanks to this book which i hope is happening inside the organization i hope will lead to certain changes there will be an opportunity to be that voice from here that will defend us and speak the truth and convey this truth to the international secretariat and to the experts . that is, i do not see the point in the organization itself simply closing down, i am saying that this will not stop the research nor is it appropriate, and this means that at the world level, at the level of international organizations, international institutions, interstate uh, i don't know communication, yes, this information will still be uh, it will still be used, and the big question is what we will

achieve, i want to ask this question to everyone do we want it, if we want it, it is possible, then we have to demand it, but my understanding is that the organization should be influenced by the work style, and the people should not be influenced, i think, because the people who at least work in the ukrainian office are people who have given many years of their lives to that to help support and if to support the progress of human rights in ukraine, these are people who put their lives on the ground that it would become safer and better here, the last question is that we have very little time left in ns international there were different pages and we we recall how it is very progressive and er and very er right valuable right organization it protected our dissidents it has been working in ukraine

for 30 years and as you correctly wrote did a great job for the benefit of society and recorded violations of human rights in the occupied crimea and documented crimes committed during the revolution of dignity and carried out by companies with ukraine's ratification of the istanbul convention and so on, but there were other pages that also cannot be silenced in the work of this orthodox organization look at me, i am confused by three things about which i will ask you and i will ask your opinion for today to do so, see in the 15th year, amnesty international declared that the ban on the activities of the communist party in ukraine is suppression and incitement in ukraine, so in the 16th in the dark year of concern for the harassment of pro-russian tv channels with hacking - this is how i quote the inter i 112th only because they were warned about issues on television for separatist

statements, this was also marked by the organization capacity of international as an attack on freedom of speech in this report to the words of ruslan kotsaba, hmm, just a person who calls himself a journalist, and he was called a prisoner of conscience, and in the 17th year of ennessa international calls on people to free people who were detained on may 9, for soviet symbols on victory day, and you then say so, as the head of the office, you say the following: the ban on symbols associated with the communist party and the soviet past is a violation of the right to freedom of expression and peaceful assembly on the part of the ukrainian authorities, it was already when soviet symbols were banned by legislation in ukraine, it was when in 200 already after that. so, when in 2009 there was a resolution of the osce on equating

communism and nazism and the decision of the european parliament, what do you think about this statement and whether would you make such statements now after february 24 or would i make them now no i wouldn't make them now in short i would n't make them now but going back to the communist party everything else cannot be said about the party because it is political party and this is a slightly different dimension. i would like to say about the symbolism, i spoke in peacetime and this must be understood by me. well, it was not already peacetime, it was already a war, but it was not a full-scale war, and it is very important to me how ukraine looks on the world stage unfortunately

, very few people know about the crimes of the soviet union in the world. unfortunately, in the wider world, that great world from argentina to indonesia. no, but it is because of nazism. it seems to me that our task is not to introduce criminal liability and imprison people for badges, but to ensure that these people do not wear these badges because they no longer believe, do not trust and are not supported by values, and this is my basis. i do not think that banning badges we will achieve real changes. i am sure that we will achieve real changes only by convincing people, explaining to them, talking to him and bringing the truth to them, and for this we have to work. this is a longer path, it is

more difficult, it is not so easy, but it is real changes, if we want changes, we need to work, thank you. i think that no one has changed the consciousness of a ukrainian as much as nothing has changed as much as the russian missiles that arrived after february 24-24, and i think that we no longer need to convince anyone inside the country, except that this is simply a frank russian agent oksana, thank you for the conversation, the former director of the ukrainian office of the international legal protection organization emnost international was my guest today in the program proper names we thank oksana pokalchuk eh and eh we we hope that human rights organizations in the world will not replace the values ​​of emission and cutting off good from evil simply with stencils and protocols. thank you for listening to us today, we will see each other

at the next meeting and as always i say glory to our heroes, glory to the armed forces and glory we are a nation of resourceful people rainmen are universal people, they can be what to do, we invent something that does not need to be cooked, we create highly maneuverable, high-speed scales that can go anywhere, we make it work, it is very convenient to sleep somewhere in a trench, i do not carry it victory and after that delicious battalion of inventors here our front the sixth caravan with ukrainian food left from