and that's all, they left power to themselves, because kravchuk's communists never had a goal in the world to have an independent ukraine. well, there was no such thing when they say that kravchuk, the father, will never remain, and that's why it's their symbol. they aspired, they lived by it, they are those who did not come from the camps, those who were buried or were reburied, er, already already on ukrainian land, they, it was theirs, it was theirs, the meaning of life, and they aspired to it, and that is why these two aspirations, the aspirations of the communists , converged keep the power but idealistic idealism - idealism and the ideal of an independent ukraine in the anti-communist part of the verkhovna rada also came true, that is, it was a combination of practical

, realistic and idealistic, and this is how ukraine practically is to this day, and on the other hand, it is idealistic, so it is interesting that people understood the scale of the tasks then, and i would say the scale of the consequences of this declaration of independence, because i remember very well that during the first congress of people's deputies of the soviet union, i walked in the alexander garden of the kremlin with the head of the sidedis dad-sambladzer just mentioned about savidys and it was such a beginning and here i was with him he told me that if savidyz won the elections to the verkhovna rada of the lithuanian ssr and it was already clear that he would win the first thing he would do he would not wait he will announce the restoration of the independence of the republic of lithuania, well, it was a radical decision. it is clear that the union republic announces that it is leaving the soviet union, it was never in it, and i told him, professor, i do not

allow that lithuania can simply refuse from the soviet union it seems to me that in order to ensure the independence of lithuania , the soviet union itself must be destroyed, and professor lanzberges looked at me like this in his uh-classic view. yatav, but even then it seemed to me that it was impossible to destroy the soviet union without ukraine. and this day has come, and it was not just the declaration of ukraine 's independence. when they voted for independence, they understood what they were doing. well, i always told you that these two were, so to speak, dualistic .

many of them even then said that uh, after lenin, helenin said that without ukraine, uh, that revolutions are impossible there, or russia is impossible , etc. this is xiaomi today, this is the same axiom, it does not need any further reasoning, because the events that will take place without ukraine cannot be the moscow empire, it exists in its territory to this day, but it still wants to spread to what it considers its own too, and that's why, of course, there was no such awareness then. but really, why are the baltic states so strong now, and poland and the baltic states are not the closest, strongest, helping

ukraine, they understand perfectly well that after standing by standing up to it, ukraine provides them with independence, statehood and freedom. the baltic states and poland understand this the most, and if they don't stand up, then that's it. then we won't talk about it at all. what will be the possible consequences that are not foreseen, but the issue of freedom in europe and the freedom of these states and nations of course, it will become a big question, let's say sorry for the pathology, that's why. of course , today is a continuation of what happened on august 24, that's what happened on august 24, 181. that's only the beginning, which certainly had pour into the bloody hospital, because never in the world did muscovy let ukraine go so easily and they don't let go, and when we talked about the fact that

independence was declared then and it was really a holiday , everyone rejoiced, but it was obvious to me then, and i said it live on e- on the same evening at 11:00 p.m. on the first one hmmm yevdokia kolesnyk had a journalist who hosted a program. she had an evening program for 15 minutes. at 11:00 p.m. in the dnipro restaurant there is a historic building that is now destroyed where was the baptism, where was the arbitration court and so on, but everyone went to drink, dance and have fun. and i went on the air and said this to my tongue, and today is a great, great, huge historical event, the holiday is joyful, but i can’t because ukraine is so peaceful and bloodless, never will not be a bloodless state and this is practical. i don't know for sure what the whole

past history proved. i am not a historian, but these were my words on the air then on august 24, 1991, history confirmed this . question to serhii, who is an idealist and who is a realist? it seems to me that it is precisely idealist. i can quietly name ukrainians who for many years, if not decades, believed that an independent ukraine could exist next to russia, choosing its own path, choosing its own cult. well, national identity, and at the same time, russia with he will simply agree to this without any problems with the efforts of his side, this is idealism and realism. it seems to me that it is just e for those people who were engaged in the national liberation struggle once in the beginning movement yes, yes with today's view can be called a realist, but i consider myself a fringe, i remember i was

just there, bohdana gailo, uh, radio freedom was already in munich, then it was not my own, there was some kind of international conference, i was supposed to be a deputy of the first convocation, and sergey spoke there karaganov is known that way in russia. let's say, well, an ideologue or not an ideologue or a leader of russian racism, i can say for today. like some kind of idiocy, because for me, ukraine was not a political project, and even more so. well, what does it mean about the existence of more than 20 years? well, that's already uh-uh, they just didn't have time not to declare independence, as already in the kremlin or in the kremlin or in e let's say this in their brain centers there was a strategy that if

in 20 years they should do something so that ukraine disappears as a state, and today, well, 30 years have passed practically. kravchuk has already become for them a nationalist and for them it was necessary to have a pro-russian president, and therefore through certain mechanisms, you know, agreements and blackmails, kuchma was announced as the president in the early elections, but did not win the elections, and so on, and every time. or purely pro-russian or other , instead of nationalists, kravchuk seems to be a realist or an idealist, so instead, according to what moscow did, then it proved so much that it itself somehow stopped making russia, russia, and

then it means a struggle to replace it. even such a not-so-nationalistic crowd needs to talk about moskovskii, leave about moskovskii yanukovych, respectively, then in 2014, the war and that’s what happened before the war and, hmm, the language of faith. and that's why there was a movement to another project, and these waves of ukrainians, they constantly go back and forth, back and forth, and it got to the point that today the political project is not ukraine, but the political project is about what has passed, muscovy has moved to a methodology that surpasses the methodology of hitler's nazism is superior in its cruelty in its inhumanity in

its barbarism, it is clearly not today, it gives us daily and hourly throughout the territory of ukraine evidence that the only goal is to wipe ukraine from the face of the earth as such, not just as a state, not just its statehood and to erase from the face of the earth ukraine as a phenomenon ukraine as an original as a natural gift to erase and destroy ukrainians only because they are ukrainians as hitler did to the jews but here we are talking about the youth and not some of them are ukrainians russian-speakers, er, turkic-speaking people, or some others, or ukrainians, simply destroy ukrainians because they respect their coat of arms, that flag, that house, that they sing the red viburnum, what do they say for ukrainians, only for that they are destroyed

physically, i don’t think that such and such barbarism in general, what could this happen after the world experienced in the 20th century through the first and second world war . it seems to me that they did not learn in this case, she wrote the world order in the 45th year, creating it, everyone was convinced that this is no longer the case it will be, and it will be forever, it is not something that will not be, it is already there, and it surpasses what, what, what, what generation the civilized world put in the 45th year , you know and you mentioned serhiy karaganov, i will tell you that i was at a closed meeting council of foreign defense policy, which was then headed by serhiy kharganov, it was the beginning of the 90s and there was a specially closed meeting dedicated to the relations between russia and ukraine. i am a russian citizen that i cannot be

in such places when there were such times and there the first deputy minister of foreign affairs of the russian federation anatoliy demyshyn spoke with a report on relations with ukraine. well, as the deputy speaks, they have signed such and such such agreements are being prepared such and such such agreements ukraine demands such we require such an ordinary diplomatic analysis, and here one of the participants of the meeting asked mr. demyshyn, but what do you think, in general, how the relations between the russian federation and ukraine should be developed on demishuyu an experienced diplomat looks at this person and says how about an ordinary independent state and i felt the dissatisfaction of the whole hall physically, first i decided that my lifelong career would soon end, i turned out to be right, he was removed from the ministry of foreign affairs and then from politics, my friend, it became clear to me that these people do not want to develop relations with ukraine, what kind of ordinary independent state, what do they not want such a state at all, and it was the entire russian elite, all of them gathered there, not one karaganov, they all wanted

that all this did not happen, and i was always surprised. i in kyiv does not realize this, does not see it, when they did not hide it. i was at that meeting of the verkhovna rada of russia where the resolution on the pro-russian status of sevastopol was adopted. i was still a young man and they already voted for it. i remember all these all this struggle for crimea in the 90s very well. years in kyiv they did not understand this. perhaps they did not even want to a large extent. a certain part of the political class contributed to the fact that they did not understand this for 30 years of independence. of the political class in power, which worked on ukrainian statehood, which would make the ukrainian state strong, and which would understand that historical or, let's say, geopolitical or existential threat

that it established and poses for the ukrainian people , for the ukrainian land, for the ukrainian state and for ukraine, as once again someone of god's phenomenon there was no such thing in muscovy, this is our vulnerability, so to speak, because the political society is ukrainian. unfortunately, it is completely different from the political society of the baltic states, all other states of those states that passed the stage of established nations that had statehood, but ukraine is also vulnerable in this. it never had statehood. and before that, until the year 1991, it was a colony for almost 400 years, so no one, no one, had such a thing, so to speak. well, i did not encounter such a global problem as ukrainianness after almost four years

of the colonial state of slavery e-e m-m when everything was squeezed out, everything that connected a human being or a being or a ukrainian with ukraine was squeezed out spiritually not materially, but spiritually, all this was squeezed out and therefore, of course, on this background, on the background of historical development, the ukrainian nation could not, could not, figure out how it happened. today to today i want to stop until the last one if you have one yes yes yes please one minute no one a couple of minutes i am in connection with the fact that i showed you this act

which as i wrote at two o'clock on august 23 the act of independence and there are my words and my hand is in me another dream. how many 30 years have passed since that time? i am re-reading something that few people read, probably even academicians, lawyers, politicians. it is called the constitution of pylyp orlyk, which is not actually a constitution. it is a contract between the hetman and the zaporozhian army, you know what? he year what is there here what are the concepts is gentleman antiquanque kosatikov this is the ancient cossack nation is the concept of ukraine is the concept of despotic muscovitiko empire is the concept of e-e muscovy as such hygo muscovitiko

is a yoke-moscovite and is latin the name of our primary parva russia is a little in russia, this is the core of russia, this is russia, you know, because they stole this name from us, russia, color, russia, little russia , and now it has russia. praised adopted independence proclaimed that the current composition of the parliament passed a law for internal use to abandon the stolen from us word russia barbarian little russia kievan russia that we return what you are in the documents of pylyp orlyk igo moskvitiko e-e muscovite empire is absolutely muscovite empire of muscovy, we need to show them that we, ukraine, were

ukraine, are and will be ukraine, and they were muscovy , are muscovy and will be in moscow, for this we need to legalize this name and internal usage. of course , this will not spread internationally because there are international documents he, but it is inside his state, one must have pride, courage, determination to give up the name russia for muscovy, because russia , as in latin, then it sounded like it is we, it is russia, russia, kiev, russia, or the program of russia mala russia is kyivan rus, so it is still my dream, whether or not it is a dream, i think it is the duty of the current deputies to do this and everyone. and not to russia and tell mr. serhiy about the last question of our

conversation today, it is the one that we ask all our bones of this project of this air, after all, independence for you and for you with victory in this war what does it mean to say briefly independence at the same time as the declared structure of development. you understand, well, in principle, i have the same thing with me, well, i left science for the sake of the independence of ukraine. 90 80s, i was still in one of the youth creative teams we wrote gorbachev's law on youth, so to speak, according to the task of gorbachev, but even there, when they wrote the law on language, and we traveled to the baltic republics, where it all began, we spoke on live broadcasts, i heard that in moscow this freedom was on the program lawyers and we are live came to kyiv quickly, and here stalin's suffocation is dead, brezhnev's is dead to shcherbytsky's person, and

that's all clear. no, i'm leaving science. i'm going into politics, if politics for the sake of an independent ukraine and not just an independent one, because pavlychko and i argued about that at the first convocation of the verkhovna rada, i said i i want an independent but democratic ukraine, and where is freedom, and he said no, stupid . we need you first to be independent, and then we need to be independent, i say dmytro on this. you and i disagree, for me, the meaning of life is independent ukraine with european values, which we are today and not us, or the ukrainian political class always proclaims to learn to pronounce the rights of human rights, the political class has learned to pronounce these words over the years, only it does not want to implement these european or western values ​​in the form of human rights, the rule of law, liberal truthful democracy and not the formal one,

which is formal in russia and belarus, because there is no longer a formal one there, but still there are supposed to be elections, so the political class of ukraine does not want to implement all these years in this state what values ​​already exist in europe, on which this europe is built in the form of the european union, unfortunately, these values ​​in ukraine still remain slogans, newspaper lines, and not practical affairs of the ukrainian political class, and maybe victory will be the fact that ukraine will become free and legal, and first of all, we must winning a victory over the enemy in the war will only make it possible to further implement european values ​​and gradually enter the european civilizational space by already europeanizing ukrainians, and they must become the majority

to ukrainian society, ukrainians are not yet all ukrainians in ukraine, with a trident, you must be ukrainian in your heart, have the dignity of a ukrainian as a citizen of ukraine, belong to feel that you belong to the ukrainian state, and this is a ukrainian, as pylyp orlyk once again wrote, a ukrainian cossack nation, always a cossack nation, always not perceived autocracy, it was in those days that they passed this treaty with hetman orlyk so that he would not abuse his power, and therefore the cossacks, because the cossack nation is characterized by hatred or rejection of autocracy, i am convinced that the cossack nation, the modern cossack nation, it will still enter the liberal or freedom-loving

or that space of political and legal which is based on freedom in all of europe. for ukrainians victory and loss, analysis and forecasts, politics and geopolitics, serhii rudenko and the guests of his program will talk about all this, people who have information and shape public opinion, people who defend ukraine and create the future right now, the main and interesting thing in the program is the verdict by serhiy

rudenko from monday to thursday at 1:00 p.m. repeat at 9:30 p.m. of the empire and the russian empire of nazi germany and today for fascist russia, but do not rush to my mother's nerves, she has a ukrainian heart odesa unconquered unconquered cities of ukraine is cozy kherson pearl of the protected

territories of ukraine, the city played a significant role in the formation of statehood, became the southern center of the ukrainian revival during the great terror , the nkvdists shot almost 2,000 people for nationalism , and the kherson leadership of the oun, led by bohdan bandera, actively fought against the german invaders, because an angry kherson native will go bare-handed against an enemy column, but will not bow to the occupier kherson - unconquered the unconquered cities of ukraine, our shipping capital is known for its moorings, bridges and happy brides, the glorious earth at the confluence ingulu and the buska estuary have long been closely

connected with the zaporozhian cossacks and for centuries formed a free ukrainian spirit to fight. the city named in honor of saint nicholas, the patron saint of sailors, has always courageously fought against enslavement. as during the second world war, hitler's troops shamefully fled from mykolaiv, the same fate awaits. on other invaders who are now encroaching on the glorious ship shrine despite the constant shelling of mykolaiv kordu sets sails for victory for ukraine unconquered mykolaiv unconquered the city of ukraine is a cozy and comfortable kharkiv , a city of students of science and industry, a city

that since ancient times was repeatedly attacked by tatars, passed both into the hands of bolshevik invaders and into the paws of german fascists, but kharkiv led and kept ukraine in its heart then and now kharkiv the unconquered war in ukraine the main topic for ukrainians is victories and losses , analysis and forecasts, politics and geopolitics, serhiy rudenko and the guests of his program will talk about all this, people who have information and shape public opinion people who defend ukraine and create the future right now the most important and interesting thing in

the program is the verdict by serhiy rudenko from monday to thursday at 1:00 p.m. repeat at 9:30 p.m. we continue our broadcast of the games hanna valevska from the shelter since the alert has been announced in most regions of ukraine, congratulations happy independence day to all of you, our next guest, serhiy tuzan, head of the ukrainian center for security and cooperation, co-organizer of the company, we congratulate you, mr. serhiy, i congratulate you, well, it ’s children’s year. just don’t worry, it’s all just children they are having fun. here in ukraine, we are in the parking lot, so nothing terrible is happening there. therefore, by the day of ukraine's independence, 30 countries of the world will visit the company independent independence in my heart, that is, independence in my heart, translated from english, organized by the ukrainian center for security and cooperation in six in 66 cities of the

usa, canada, australia, european and asian countries, people will take to the streets to draw attention to the struggle of ukraine, which has been going on for six months. i want to say that the ukrainian center for security and cooperation, which i represent, is only a co-organizer of this company, along with other organizations and individual communities, not even those that are organized in organizations around the world, but here it is worth saying that ukrainian communities are really gathering around the world er, and they hold their actions with the main demand to draw the attention of the world precisely to our struggle before our war. and perhaps for the first time, our holiday, our celebration, it is not quite so solemn, but more, more political, that is, there are very clear demands on the governments of their countries, on the parliaments of their countries, and the first

thing is to arm ukraine, that is, to give, to give everything that is needed so that ukraine not only survives the war with russia, but that it can be on the battlefield, the second requirement is all communities, that's all to impose greater sanctions on russia, we understand what, what, what today the russian federation is actually such a global global terrorist . went to russia, who for this money hires all those wagnerites and jailers and so on