let's see red viburnum, then it was an anthem , then it was this, this pathos, it was this elevation, this was what finally established this spirit, the ukrainian spirit of ukrainian immortality, remember, compare red viburnum - it is like a final stage or it is like an apotheosis of the founding congress of the movement and the red viburnum today. what is its sound, what is its meaning and does it inspire now. that is, it is what actually constitutes the spirituality of ukrainian existence and or and the indestructibility of ukrainian through spiritual symbols through music, words of songs and so on. these are these feelings because already later. of course, when we adopted the constitution, we wrote down what the national anthem is, what

the national coat of arms is, and so on. as they say, the ants then left and the tears flowed because it was. it was incomprehensible. it was not unexpected. it was, but it was natural . was on the first day of the founding congress of the people's front of estonia, the secretary of the central committee of the party, vaina vialis, the chairman of the council of ministers of the estonian ssr , indrik to and the chairman of the presidium of the supreme council of estonia, arlenderitel, by the way, the future president of the already restored country, came there for the first time, and they were all met with applause and they sat there among the delegation of the congress so it was clear that this is the people's front of this people, even the party leadership of history is close to the people . and only really leonid kravchuk came to the founding congress of the movement. i would say not from of his own accord, he was then sent and he

was only the head of the ideological department of the central committee of the digger of ukraine and a member of the central committee , not even a member of the politburo of the central committee of the communist party, in fact the party leadership of ukraine ignored the congress, they even forbade us to write about this congress. i don't know if you you know that i wrote the text about the founding congress of the movement before the congress began and before we were forbidden to write. that is, we managed to publish in the newspaper of the youth of ukraine a notice that the congress had begun, what if it was opened by the delegates, that means with national songs, this was not the case, i made it up just to have time to print it, and then everything was banned for 10 days , i remember it very well, i know it very well, because i also observed it with my own eyes and that my ears heard everything, why in ukraine it was different, by the way , i am the same as you in estonia, i participated in the founding congress of the congress in vilnius in

the palace of sports and saw such a powerful explosion that it was nationally exalted, it also made a huge impression on me and it is accordingly, it was so to speak well, i would say such a leader was already in the preparation of the ukrainian er-er ukrainian ukrainian insurgent movement, among other things, what is happening you see in estonia there was a people's front in lithuania there was a people's front and in er-e in latvia and in lithuania , the website actually had a name, and when we were preparing the founding documents, i wrote them, the statute and the program, and i convinced pavlychka and yavorivskyi interach, let’s do it so that we don’t need the abbreviation nnu e-e or as the popular fronts were in the baltic states, i say let’s go i want this to become my own name in the statute

, i tell you, they will write in the english-language press, in the world press, we don't need an abbreviation that will be incomprehensible, but we need it to become an original name, and i capitalize it everywhere in the statute, it's in the movement, of course, the full name, people's movement of ukraine for the reconstruction, but then everywhere according to the text movement movement movement and with capitals of course, linguists and linguists argued that this contradicts the ukrainian spelling. i am told that they are waiting for the spelling. i am interested in it being an original name which she entered with a ukrainian word and it went on like that, they already wrote in english rukh, not numen, and so on, and so on with regard to kravchuk , vitaliy, it could not have been otherwise, because kravchuk was forced to come to that convention , remember the summer months when, among other things , on the live air on tue-1 there were public debates on kravchuk as the leader of the ideologist, the leader of the

ideological leader of the ukrainian or soviet communists in ukraine, how he argued, proved to ivan fedorovych the brat who he was, that he was not yet the head of the movement, but he led , so to speak, organizationally, this nucleus poet, how was he then elected on may 1 before that in lviv to the soviet father of the supreme soviet in such terrible elections and so on, but he won, he was a leader well, let's say a symbolic leader at that time and i remember very well how well 1 kravchuk er turned his back to drach they sat with their backs not facing each other arguing but with their backs because kravchuk fiercely argued that we do not need any movement what are you doing here with the bander nationalist symbols blue and yellow we have everything we have blue and yellow look at our flag

there is a yellow heart, a hammer, gold, this is yellow , and look at the red and blue. there is also blue. that is, these colors are present and this essence is communist. of course, he understood everything perfectly, he perfectly understood what the history of ukraine was, but he continued to play what was supposed to play the ideological guest of the communists in ukraine. because ukraine had and has and today proves that it has a defining value for muscovy, as it is not a separate part of our empire, without which the muscovite empire cannot exist, that is why all efforts were abandoned. why for so long shcherbytskyi was in power in kyiv, gorbachev

gave gorbachev a little , so to speak where is he in the forest, you, i don't remember the name of this program. this program is theirs, but it was in ukraine. it was suffocated in ukraine because it was necessary to keep ukraine in what was once called a hedgehog glove, that is, in the vices of kg, the vices of communist totalitarianism. would speak the system and that is why kravchuk played his role and he proved it by the way let's go back to before again to today the word is a mass, a mass of those who were waiting to leave within the walls of the verkhovna rada of the ukrainian ssr . on august 24, 1991,

they demanded a blue-yellow flag and that kravchuk told a lie if two flags were raised at the same time to kravchuk two flags were raised, the soviet blue-jo-how is it red-blue with a hammer and sickle and the ukrainian blue-yellow at the same time on the guys, mr. serhiu that this was an ancient concept even before the declaration of independence, but i will tell you simply in dotted lines i will tell you after the movement was created, i wanted to ensure that the use of the blue-yellow flag was allowed in ukraine, as it was allowed in the baltic countries. do you remember that at one time there were two flags? i wanted to write an article about it. well, the newspaper editors told me that i cannot write such an article because i am a student university and this a big deal, the bander flag, in fact, the

entire communist leadership fought against it, people kicked out the hall of the verkhovna rada of the ukrainian ssr, valentina shevchenko, the then chairman of the verkhovna rada, did this when the people's deputy of the soviet union, mykola kutsenko, came with a badge, she, him, you, yes, yes, in violation of the constitution of the soviet union, because i couldn't make him a union deputy. that's why i went to leonid kravchuk, he was already the secretary of the central committee of the party, and leonid kravchuk said that if you write an article, we will see it and we will use two flags and i have one condition: you have to find a well-known ukrainian writer and intellectual with a party ticket , it is desirable that he give you an interview and in which he said that you can use both the one and the other flag, and unfortunately, mr. serhii, i did not find such an interlocutor, but excuse me, this is my hose about the period from when the ukrainian ssr was a constituent part of the soviet union of

the ussr union and when o-o-o er-e in the evening of august 24 they announced what was announced here i have an act act act which original do you know this document i his i maintain that the independence of ukraine was proclaimed as an independent state that could be on the mast of an already independent ukraine, the soviet flag of ukraine seems that the ukrainian communists did not understand what they proclaimed at the time . secretary, then somehow it was different in truth or me, but in any case, it was an instruction and he said both because well, they were scared and they hung up on me, but it is symbolic, you know, i told you it was successful that's how it happened and it had its own meaning why because

the idealists are members of the movement or movement or those who still left the camps levko lukyanenko burned brothers burned iryna kalynets others who went through the repressions of the brezhnev regime and so on and even gorbachevskiy, these are idealists who wanted an independent ukraine, they got it, they saw us as a sin, their flag, and the communists who left power to themselves, because kravchuk's communists never had the goal of having an independent ukraine. never, and that is why this is their symbol, they are forced , that is, they have kept their power, let it be called independent ukraine, and the idealists are movementists, that is what they aspired to, they lived by it, they are those who did not come from the camps, those who were

buried or were reburied eh already already in ukrainian land, it was theirs, it was theirs, it was the meaning of life, and they longed for it, and that is why these two aspirations of the communists' desire to preserve power but idealistic idealism and the ideal of an independent ukraine in the anti-communist part of the verkhovna rada came together. it came true, it was a combination of practical, realistic and idealistic, and ukraine is practically to this day and is , on the one hand, realistic, and on the other hand, idealistic, it is interesting that people understood the scale of the tasks then, and i would say the scale of the consequences of this declaration of independence, because i remember very well i remember that during the first congress of people's deputies of the soviet union, i was walking in the

alexander garden of the kremlin with the head of a sidedis from an avtosabladzer . he told me that if savidi won the elections to the verkhovna rada of the lithuanian ssr and it was already clear that he would win, the first thing he would do was not to wait, he would announce the restoration of the independence of the republic of lithuania, well, it was a radical decision. it is clear that the union republic announces that it is leaving the soviet union that it was never in it and i told him, professor, i do not allow that lithuania can so easily renounce the soviet union. it seems to me that in order to ensure lithuania's independence, it must be destroyed the soviet union itself and professor lamberg looked at me like that, and in his uh- classical view. i would say so carefully and say well, then we are destroying the soviet union in italy and i remembered it, but even then it seemed to me that without ukraine we could destroy the soviet union the union is impossible . this day has come, and it was not just

the declaration of ukraine's independence. it was actually a sentence against the soviet union. do you think that the deputies of the verkhovna rada of ukraine, when they voted, that they understood what they were doing, i told you this, so to speak, double there was a dual understanding of communists on the one hand and anti-communists or independents and on the other hand independents, i understood what they were doing and they did . russia is impossible, and so on, and so on, regardless of what they fought for. they said that without ukraine, the empire would fall apart. that is, but this is xiaomi for today, as well as this axiom.

they prove exactly that without ukraine there can be no muscovite empire, it exists to this day in its territory, but it further wants to spread to what it considers its term and therefore of course there was no such awareness then but really, why are the baltic states so now and poland and the baltic states are not the closest and strongest help ukraine, they perfectly understand that by standing up , ukraine provides them with independence, statehood and freedom. the baltic states and poland understand this the most. it is not enough, then it is, then we will not talk about it at all, what will be, what are not foreseen, possible consequences, but the issue of freedom in europe and the freedom of these and the nations of the states, of course it will become a big

issue . is a continuation of what happened on august 24, that is what happened on august 24 of the first national year. it was only the beginning that was bound to result in bloody freedom, because never in the world did muscovy let ukraine go so easily and they are not letting go even when we were talking about that that then independence was proclaimed and it was really a holiday, everyone was happy, but it was obvious to me then and i said it live on the same evening at 11:00 on the first one hmm yevdokia kolesnyk had a journalist who hosted the program she had an evening program for 15 minutes at 11:00 p.m. i am writing that i did not go to drink with the communists at the dnipro restaurant in the capital, this is where the combined

building is now, where it will be on khreshchatyk, where the arbitration court was, and so on. but everyone went to drink, dance and have fun. and i went to the ether said this to the tongue and today is a big , big, huge historical event, rejoice, but i can’t because it’s so peaceful and bloodless ukraine will never be a bloodless state and that ’s practically i don’t know, probably all past history proved something words on the live air then on august 24, 1991, history confirmed this, he will not let go, he will not let go, he will not let go of moscow, then the question arises p. sergey , who is an idealist, who is a realist, i think that it is just an idealist . ukrainians who for many years, if not decades, believed that an independent ukraine could exist next to russia, choosing its own path,

choosing its own cultural and national identity, and at the same time, russia would simply agree to this without any problems from its own efforts, this is idealism and realism. it seems to me just for those people who were engaged in the national liberation struggle, once a national movement, yes. in view of today, you can say that you are realists, but i considered myself an idealist, why was i in munich in 1992 or the first year i remember the conference. bohdana gailo was there just now on the radio. freedom was already there, it seems , in munich. then there was some kind of international conference. i had a report. i was a deputy of the first convocation and sergey karaganov spoke there. he is so famous in russia. let's say, well, an ideologue or not. an ideologist or a leader of russian- racism today, i can say. and he said right then at the conference that the political project of ukraine will not prosper for more than

20 years. project and all the more well, what does it mean about the existence of more than 20 years, so here it is already uh, they just didn't have time not to declare independence as already in the kremlin or in the kremlin or in let's say so in their uh brain centers there was a strategy of what if what in 20 years ago, they had to make ukraine disappear as a state, and today, well, almost 30 years have passed. they remember. they did everything possible. they put kuchma in place of kravchuk because kravchuk had already become a nationalist for them, and for them there should be a pro-russian president and therefore through certain mechanisms, you know the agreements and blackmails. kuchma was declared president

in the early elections, but did not win the elections, and so on, and every time. this is the same. an idealist, so instead of what moscow did, then it proved so much that he himself already killed russia and russia, and then it means a struggle to replace that even such a not very nationalist bunch needs to talk about moskovsky according to moscow's yanukovych, later in 2013 , the war and that's what happened before the war and hmm, the language of faith, what is there an army or faith - these are the bandera people, they are nationalists, they must be destroyed , and that's why the movement went to another project, and these

waves are ukrainian . constantly constantly back and forth back and forth and it got to the point that today it is not that the political project is ukraine, but the political project is about what has passed muscovy has moved to a methodology that surpasses the methodology of hitler's nazism, surpasses in its cruelty in to its inhumanity in its warterism, it is clearly not today for us daily and hourly throughout the territory of ukraine evidence that the only goal is to wipe off the face of the earth ukraine as such, not just as a state, not just its statehood, but to wipe off the face of the earth ukraine as a phenomenon, ukraine as an original as a natural gift to wipe out and destroy ukrainians

just because they are ukrainians, as hitler did to the jews, but here we are talking about the youth, not some of them are ukrainians , russian-speaking, turko-speaking, or ukrainian-speaking, simply exterminate ukrainians for the fact that they respect their coat of arms, that flag , that they sing the red viburnum, what they say, i am a ukrainian, only for this they are destroyed physically, i did not think that such barbarism was possible at all, that this could happen after experiencing the world in the 20th century through the first second world war i don't think they learned this, she wrote the world order in the 45th year by creating the un, everyone was convinced that this will no longer happen, but it is constant, it is not something that will not be, it is already there, and it surpasses what it is. which

the civilized world turned to ashes in 1945, you know, and you mentioned serhiy karaganov . i will tell you that i was at a closed meeting of the foreign defense policy council, which was then headed by serhiy kharganov. it was the beginning of the 90s , and there was a special closed meeting devoted to relations between russia and of ukraine i got on it through my channels, i was sitting there somewhere unnoticed, they simply did not understand that i was a ukrainian citizen, not a russian one, that i could not be in such places that there were such times and the first deputy minister was speaking there of foreign affairs of the russian federation anatoliy demyshyn with a report on relations with ukraine well, as the deputy speaks, they have signed such and such such agreements are being prepared such and such such agreements ukraine demands such and such we demand such and such a usual diplomatic analysis and here one of the participants of the meeting asked mr. demishyn but how do you in general do you think how the relations between the russian federation and

ukraine should be built, and where is my experienced diplomat looking at this person and saying how with an ordinary independent state and i felt dissatisfaction of the whole hall, physically, first of all, i decided that my lifelong career would soon end, i turned out to be right, he was removed from the ministry of foreign affairs, and then from politics, my friend, it became clear to me that these people do not want to develop relations with ukraine, which is an ordinary independent state, that they are not such a state at all they want, and it was the entire russian elite, all of them gathered there, not one karagano, they all wanted all this not to happen, and i was always surprised. in kyiv, this is not realized, it is not seen, when they did not hide it, i was at that meeting of the supreme the council of russia, where the pro-russian status of sevastopol passed this resolution. i was still a young man, and they already voted for it. i remember very well all of them, all this struggle for crimea in the 90s in kyiv, they did not eat it. maybe they did not even want to understand, or to a large extent,

a certain part of the political class contributed to the fact that they did not understand this during the 30 years of independence. you practically know. well, the political class did not form, or i said the critical mass of the political class in power, which worked on ukrainian statehood, which would make the ukrainian state strong. and who would understand the historical or, let's say, geopolitical or existential threat that was established and is for the ukrainian people, for the ukrainian land, for the ukrainian state, and for ukraine, as once again the divine phenomenon of muscovy, there was no such thing in this, our vulnerability, so to speak, because the ukrainian political society is completely different than the political society of the baltic states of

all other states of those states that passed the stage of established nations that had statehood, but ukraine is also vulnerable in this. it never had statehood. and before that, until 1991 was a colony for almost 400 years before that, no one, no one, had such a thing, so to speak. well, i did not face such a global problem as ukrainianness after almost four strong colonial state of slavery. when everything was squeezed out, everything that connected a human being or a being or a ukrainian with ukraine spiritually was squeezed out not materially, but spiritually, all this is squeezed out and etched, and therefore, of course, against this background, against the background of historical development, the ukrainian nation could not be

formed , how did it happen? today is breakfast to the states or allied nations and this is a big device until today until today i want to stop until the last yes yes yes please 1 minute none a couple of minutes i in connection with the fact that i showed you this act which as i wrote at two o'clock on august 23, the act of independence and there are my words and my hand i have another dream how many 30 years have passed since that time i am re-reading something that few people read probably also academics lawyers politicians it is called what they call the constitution of pylyp orlyk, which is not actually a constitution, is a treaty between hetman and the zaporizhzhya army, you know that

here is the year 1710, what is here, what are the concepts, there is the gentleman, the antiklumplex of the cossacks, this is the ancient cossack nation, there is the concept of ukraine, there is the concept of the despot, the muscovites, the empire, there is the concept of muscovy as such, the gigo moscovitiko is a yoke - muscovite is the latin name of our original parla-russia - this is little russia, this is the core of rus, this is rus, you know, because they stole this name from us, russia, the color of russia, little russia, and now it has russia. i would like to see politics in domestic use today that the parliament, as we praised then, did not approve independence, proclaimed that the current composition of the parliament passed a law for

the domestic liquid to abandon the word stolen from us, russia, the barbarian, little russia, kyivan russia, that we return what you are in the documents of pylyp orlyk, the muscovite, the muscovite empire, the muscovites absolutely flee muscovy, we need to show them that we, ukraine , were ukraine, are and will be ukraine, and they were muscovy, are muscovy and will be in moscow, for this we need to legalize this name for of internal use of course it will not be spread internationally because there are international documents, but it is in the middle of one's state , one must have pride, courage, determination to give up the name russia for muscovy, because russia as in latin then it sounded like it is we it is russia russia kyivos russia or parma

russia, little russia - this is kyivan rus, so i still have a dream, whether or not it's even a dream, i think it's the duty of the deputies of the current convocation to do this and for everyone in the entire space , information space, public space in the political space, so that only muscovy, muscovites, and not russians and not russia could be heard. and tell mr. serhiy about the last question of our conversation today, it is the one that we ask all our guests of this project of this broadcast. war . what does it mean to say independence in short, then the declared structure of development? you understand, well, in principle, the same with me, well, i went from science to politics for the sake of what, for the sake of the independence of ukraine 80