to say that foreigners will show the same strength of limits and finally get there because our defenders died there who defended not only ukraine , they defended the whole world, they defended the whole of europe , that's why and right now we will see how much the un is a purposeful organization, let's say that in fact in the un just now continues the same discussion regarding, in particular, the reformatting of at least the security council of the security council of this organization in order to deprive russia or limit the possibility of other countries in general authoritarian, for example, to introduce a legal solution to the decision of the united nations in order to make this organization more effective, so that in the sense of some decisions, more force is enough.

servicemen recently saw an officer of the russian troops again, so we understand that lieutenant colonel , that is, the possibility of an exchange fund is increasing in our country, or could your hopes, among other things, be related to the return of e prisoners well i can say what i already said when i was asked what i believe in. i said that i first of all believe only in our army and believe us, this counteroffensive is very important for us now. we are very grateful to our defenders who are being released now occupied territories, for example, krakenzu, yesterday the vocals liberated this every video every uh in every liberated city or village for us it is a big holiday and we have faith only in ours and i am grateful that they are

risking their own lives and go forward and do not stop and liberate the territory and great to them thanks for those prisoners that they take with each prisoner, especially the officers. we have more and more faith that we will finally be able to return our defenders, who three months ago, at least, should have been returned in the first a month, they should have returned a very small number of those who remained, only 43 azov residents returned, although there are a lot of them, they all need to be returned, it is clear that every day the war throws up some new topics for discussion, some other human tragedies, family tragedies and uh, it’s all the same layered layered layered some cities are vacated i think that now from balaklia vacated to the former villages we will hear about

some very key ones you see we invite you to all the actions that we hold in ukraine er, for example, well in kyiv er directly and we constantly do this in europe, ah, well, it is, first of all, secondly, a constant information war, even with the russians, who constantly block our posts on instagram, on facebook, peter and so on , he constantly tries to work with our min number, which is also very grateful for help with unlocking our pages, the pages of our defenders, who are now in the captivity of their relatives, we have very big plans, i won't tell you yet, i can't tell you yet, you will know everything about everything very soon, i understand a tell us a little more about the petition that

was created. actually, the natives of azovstal are urging her to sign what kind of petition it is to whom. it is a petition to the un, representatives of the un, so that they create a monitoring group that will be ... i'll go check it out and find out where it is our azov region is located, our defenders can sign it, ah, i see, you have just shown a link to it, it can be signed, it must be confirmed at the post office, because if it is not confirmed, it will not be signed, and i really hope that if the red cross is not able to fulfill its obligations according to the geneva convention. perhaps the un will take it up and create an independent organization that will not include russians, who for some reason are still fighting the un for me.

to be honest, it’s really strange how they can be there when they are uh the party of the murderer ah and will go to look for those because they have already been uh scattered around different cities, a lot of people have been persecuted and many of them are not found at all no information well, first of all, there is no information at all, it is about the commanders, it is not clear about any of the commanders, where they are, what they are, it was different information, then they are in moscow, then they are in donetsk, then they are again in moscow, then somewhere else and it always comes out simply eh and again with on the russian side, but to trust the russians is not to respect oneself, so we really hope only for international organizations that will be able to push through sanctions. i don't know because of any other ultimatums

to put ultimatums to them and finally find our boys, they defended mariupol for 86 days, they enabled our army, which now it is coming to get all the armed forces that they now have to get on themselves a large concentration of the army do not let them advance deep into our country maybe it is necessary finally just free them and help them save them now they essentially saved the whole of ukraine at the expense of their own lives at the expense of uh-uh their forces they lived under a complete blockade for uh-uh three months now they are even bigger they were then that's why i didn't at least hope for something at least they hoped for each other trusted them now, i don't know. and even more so. we hear what the guys who were exchanged say. and who is going there is pushing morally, so i don't know, we

have to do everything possible and it is impossible to push e e international organizations leaders in other countries and return our boys ms. sandro er, i read in the news that if you google it, azov is an american active-blazer, i don’t know if i said it correctly, some er game company does not allow the name azov in its games and says that azov people participated er i am quoting already participated in torture and war crimes. this was reported by the founder of the community, the ukrainian geek artem, one of the guys there played the game and registered registered his azov clan in honor of the azov battalion. well, he immediately received an email from this company, that is, i i understand that the company is a russian propaganda company for the discrediting of the azov battalion, it continues in the

world and against it, too. somehow we need to act informationally . well, we act informationally. it's all bureaucracy, which takes time, it's a very long game on the part of russia in order to discredit uh- huh, he's like a member of the national guard of ukraine. this is an official unit of the national guard, it's the armed forces of ukraine. in i'm interested in what kind of terrorists these people are who write and talk about it. they have facts to confirm that something happened there, apart from words, i can say the same about anyone,

but this is not confirmation, not confirmed information, no facts, no we respect ourselves as evidence if there is any information about the fact that someone was there somewhere, first of all, it is necessary to prove that this person had anything to do with the azov regiment , secondly, was it mine at all i say yes well, i have read a lot of russians in this in terms of this, they know how to spread it very professionally, and in this regard, we should learn from them how to conduct an information war, well, you know, they have a long school developed over decades . ukraine is not russia, as one of our presidents said. thank you for the conversation with sandra krutevich. the sister

of the first deputy commander of the azov regiment, bohdan krutevich, was with us and told us what is being done in some direction to liberate in the end, the defenders of the captives were stopped. well , then we will have an interview. actually, our colleague andriyanitskyi did an interview among jeffrey nasa, who actually worked in the international tribunal for the former slavia and was a prosecutor in the trial of sloboda milošević, the former president of serbia, actually about the genocide of russians in ukraine now and is it possible that this experience from the trial of a minor can still be applied in due time to be transferred to the trial of putin in the future, all about this in an interview right now i congratulate andriy janitskyi is the espresso tv channel. today we have an extraordinary interview with sir geoffrey nice as a guest on the tv channel. he has been a lawyer

since 1971. he worked in the international tribunal for the former yugoslavia and was a prosecutor in the process of the liberation of milosevic, the former president of serbia. a large part of his work is devoted to cases permanent non-international criminal court in sudan, kenya, or the left or he works for a bonus, i.e. free of charge for groups of victims from different countries in the case of burma and north korea these people cannot get to any international court, so someone has to help them . the london newspaper time times described sir geoffrey as one of the leading lawyers of his generation, and today he is in our studio, exclusive on espresso tv. congratulations, thank you for your care and indifference to suffering ukrainians , as far as i know, you are here as a private person with the

support of a non-governmental organization, the institute of war and peace coverage, and then you do not represent any official state organization, so what motivates you to be here? why is this so important to you in general this topic is of particular interest to me from time to time i have been asked to comment on it on the internet and also maybe because i can submit my ideas to the institute of war and peace coverage for their consideration so i am going to improve my knowledge of the issue of war is very important because this the war is one of the largest in europe since the second world war, this conflict may turn out to be very serious. and depending on how it ends, it will depend on whether someone like putin will succeed in repeating something similar. but if we

if we don't do this, then another step will soon be taken on the way to a potential catastrophe . many ukrainians do not believe in justice and seek revenge. how to convince people that justice is possible, first of all. revenge is unlikely to bring benefits in the long run . justice depends on what you mean by international justice. justice how did this begin relatively recently at the end of the 19th century when the geneva and hague conventions came into force, they dealt with war crimes , there were several cases after the first world war but mainly after the second, the cases initiated in yugoslavia and rwanda in 1993-94 can be considered experimental, so we are still in the process and this is

a rather large-scale topic, the correct ways of solving which are still at the approval stage, what is meant by justice is probably exactly and is the object of research, if you ask your victims about justice, they will most likely say that they want someone to be convicted or even executed, although this is not so relevant nowadays. if you ask others what justice means to them then they can say that the most important aspect of justice is that the leadership of the wrongful country be brought to justice, and i believe that now more than ever it is important to bring fokusna under the accountability of the leadership. if this happens, it will be easier for ukraine to move forward.

citizens, but there are certain rules for waging war and some things are prohibited at the international level. information from the international committee of the red cross, and yet it is worth starting with the geneva and hague conventions, which prescribe the methods of treatment of civilians and prisoners of war, as well as what weapons can and cannot be used at the end of the first world war, the term crimes against humanity appeared, there are also war crimes according to with violations of various statutes, and after the second world war there was a convention on the prevention of the crime of genocide, which recognizes genocide as a crime, all these potentially criminal actions usually tried by modern international criminal

courts is one of the ways to do justice if you manage to bring people to court and do justice to them all modern courts require that you try a person and not a state the only way to try a state is the international court for violation of treaties and as i already mentioned one of the most famous treaties is the convention on the prevention of the crime of genocide, but it is very difficult to bring a state to the international court of justice, it was problematic even in the milosevic case. in the milosevic case, the defendant was not the state, and therefore it was for international justice. it was a special tribunal and a person stood before the court. he was convicted of a number of crimes, including hanging, and he died without waiting for the verdict, so we do not know whether genocide would have been proven. genocide is a specific crime. it was not treated as

a crime a as a sociological concept proposed by raphael lemkin, a student of lviv university, who heroically expressed his concern about the murders of armenians during the first world war, he proved the idea that there should be some the way to stop such things is through the law after he failed to get genocide recognized as a crime at the nuremberg trial he appealed to the newly formed united nations the convention applies to states but now genocide is recognized as a crime in many statutes around the world threatening people who break international rules the conduct of war and which courts hear these cases in particular in relation to our case uh frozentle in overcapes your cases at

the moment can be heard by your own courts and i believe that you also have or give the authority to judge people in absentia, also the international criminal court, the jurisdiction of such a court is a bit complicated, but it does not matter because the territory of ukraine falls under it, in addition, there is the international court of the united nations and its jurisdiction was activated by russia, which in a special way violated the case against ukraine under the convention on the prevention of the crime of genocide, and ukraine responded to this and actually achieved a fairly successful result in court rulings, this can also be considered an online war is it easier to prove crimes nowadays with the help of facebook and youtube facebook of course we must be completely realistic about modern

evidence and its collection this is extremely important and the institute of war and peace coverage would not forgive me if i did not say that it is important to ensure the proper collection and registration of evidence so that if the evidence is presented in court, the witness can say that it happened that day, here is the evidence that i have, whether it's a photo or something from the media or something else. i saw it and that's exactly what happened, so it must be proper proven evidence is what people perceive as evidence sufficient to prove something and for this you definitely need judges and lawyers who take a lot of time and money.

such trials as soon as possible, bearing in mind the very strict provisions of the declaration of human rights of the european convention on the standards of evidence , which must be applied to everyone, and any state must be punished for its crimes if talk now about journalists so what is their role can we be more helpful to prosecutors and lawyers changes journalists are extremely important and very helpful and i already mentioned that in the program this morning and it might be appropriate to add one more thing going back to the previous question in 1995 on the 8th there was an event called the silver lining the worst massacre in europe since the second world war 8,000 people were killed then the trials one after the other lasted 25 years in

september or october 1995 the yorktimes very thoroughly covered the events at the time we should never underestimate journalists as they are definitely very important especially when it comes to their investigation one of the problems with war crimes trials is that most of the media want them they don't tend to criticize whereas for example the institute coverage of war and peace expressed some criticism but very few media properly criticized what was happening at the yugoslav tribunal because they all wanted it to succeed so journalists have to spread the true story to get in and see where the bad decisions are being made as they are being made by the prosecutors who are defending and

even the judges to expose it and clean up the system but i think the problem that i mentioned earlier that you can face and that is very difficult to deal with with journalists is that the longer the conflict lasts, as it was in the second world war, although i was not there then, the longer the conflict lasts, the more everyone gets used to seeing atrocities and hearing about them, and they continue to have fewer worries this war is not only of decisive importance for your country, of course for russia, but it also has a much wider echo for the whole world. after all, the results of the court proceedings will depend on whether we will finally stop such a reality or allow someone else to repeat it. i believe that the current work of the military journalists

should include a detailed report, however, what is happening on the front lines and also at people's homes when bombs are dropped on apartment buildings, etc., all this must be documented, they must find out how can to prove that the fault for all this lies with the command of various links up to the very top, but for the media of different levels, i mean from the intellectual to the more popular media, it is also important to demonstrate this and emphasize the importance for the whole world, in particular, why the risks associated with war and its solutions are so big journalism - this is an extremely important profession in the world, moreover extremely difficult i want to tell you a story about some evidence that i

presented to the yugoslav tribunal we were extremely careful about securing evidence providers a journalist recently told me the brother of our provider was tracked down and killed the difficult moment is the extreme responsibility of finding and protecting evidence providers in an era when it is very easy for us to criticize politicians and we all do it perhaps deservedly perhaps justifying and not least because they are not make sure to give us the fairest description of what's going on, that's why the role of the journalist is at the highest level of importance, do you really

believe that we can prosecute not only russian soldiers or generals, but also vladimir putin himself." putin or not will no longer matter. yes

, it will bring some satisfaction to those who suffered, perhaps great satisfaction, but the only real value will be that after such a process, the next person who would be tempted to do something similar will be stopped, so in my opinion, taking into account the real risk, since this war tells us about the real risk of a nuclear conflict in life. it is important that the international community unites and speaks exclusively in the language of the sanctions imposed on russia, in particular that there will be no concessions and that they will continue until putin is brought before the court and therefore the yugoslav tribunal was in many ways a reflection of the fact that it was not possible to do this, the international community through the united nations created the yugoslav and then transferred

the powers of arrest to the prosecutor because they had no powers, they had no police, they had to rely on the countries with which the international community actually cooperates did not particularly intervene, perhaps it would be better if the representatives of the yugoslav tribunal said thank you for your trust, but you must arrest this person, otherwise we will not try him, well, now you have a mechanism, a sanctioning mechanism, sanctions have affected russia very much, and if the international community had enough courage they would say that the sanctions will last until you hand him over, but i doubt that they will do it, although everything would be correct if we drew parallels with the trial of milošević. perhaps the future trial over putin, what mistakes can be avoided in the case of putin, the case of putin is very powerful, it is quite easy

to make a mistake if you focus too much on proving genocide, which is very difficult, it would be much better to focus on because it is much easier and clearer to prove crimes against humanity and war crimes, take and prove and perhaps the time will come when insiders will appear who will provide documents, reports or anything that will prove that putin's mental state was such that he wanted to kill ukrainians simply because they ukrainians if it happens, it will be possible to prove genocide, but a really great lesson in a criminal case is to realize what you can prove and what is important. so if you ask me this question, i think one of the things that should be in

this excessive effort to prove genocide is having a lot of evidence of everything else eh and probably the last question is about the terms, how long could such a process on putin last 5 years 10 years no, you can judge him now, you have a lot of evidence and therefore convincing, in particular, the destruction of non-military targets and absolutely it's obvious he knew about it from the second day because he saw them on tv like all of us is there any evidence that he came out publicly saying i understand that this is a big mistake i stop my people and bring them home and punish them properly no there was no no no there were also mentions of it, but the same thing lasted for months, and it is also unreasonable to assume that his military

can do whatever they want and that they just want to commit crimes against the civilian population, it is quite obvious that this is not the case, now you do not need a lot of evidence to prove it, thank you for that too interview and for our viewers i would like to remind you that with us was geoffrey nice, who is a lawyer who has been practicing as a lawyer since 1971, worked at the international tribunal for the former yugoslavia and was a prosecutor in the process of the liberation of the maloshevich former president of serbia. the times of london named geoffrey one of the leading lawyers is