gongadze's activities and they are already deciding what to do with him. in december, mass protests began in the capital, which turned into the action ukraine without kuchma. in the spring of 2001, it was suppressed by direct killers . only after the orange revolution in 2005, three experts of the department of external surveillance of the ministry of internal affairs, valery kostenko mykola , were detained. protasov and oleksandr popovych were sentenced to terms of 12 to 13 years in 2009, and their manager, the ex-head of the department, oleksiy pukach, who confessed to the murder , was also detained. received a life sentence as the mastermind of the murder, the investigation considered the former minister of internal affairs yury kravchenko, but at that time he was already dead, according to the official version, he committed suicide with two shots to the head of the gongadze family, on the other hand, he believes that the real masterminds of the murder have not yet been named. all this time, the body of the journalist was in the morgue because his mother giorgia refused to recognize

her son in him only 15 and a half years later, on march 22, 2016, he was buried in kyiv by mrs. valentina, will we ever find out the names who ordered the murder of gongadze, i think we will find out, in fact, it is extremely important for ukraine to find out who was the orderer of this murder , get an answer to the question of whether the ukrainian president was really the orderer, were the orderers from the kremlin and it was a special operation aimed at compromising the ukrainian president and returning ukraine to russia, this is key question and i believe that we will get an answer to it. what is the current situation? do you remain the lawyer of miroslav and gongadze? yes, but there are currently no proceedings

there is a pre-trial investigation formally there is or not it is not known in which body the pre-trial investigation regarding the customers and that is the end of it it is dead it does not work no one is working no one is looking for anything where the materials are unknown accordingly nothing happens within the scope of this case pre-trial investigation and a criminal case well there is a criminal case pre-trial investigation, er, this is a criminal case, that is, it is open. and when the statute of limitations expires, since it is a murder, the statute of limitations for the investigation does not expire. er, only the court can release from punishment given the fact that the statute of limitations of the customer coincided, that is, it is necessary to establish who was the customer regardless of the

statute of limitations. i will even remind you that leonid kuchma said that spartak he admits that his voice is on the tape, but he is because at that time well, that is, he could not say with certainty whether it was these words that he spoke in this order, the same ones there were dialogues and he claimed that he did not mean the murder of the race journalist - that the dialogue itself was falsified, since mykola melnychenko never provided the original carriers of his records, it turned out to be impossible to carry out an examination, no one conducted an examination of these records due to the fact that melnychenko never provided anya with the original media or the devices with which he made these records, if there were at least the original media, then of course it would be possible to

conduct an examination, since there were none, and we only have digital files in which it is very clear marked even some, it is not known, all or not all, some places where editing is stitched together, including the phrase of not only episodes, then rely on these tapes as evidence. we cannot, moreover, objectively, if we listen to the tapes, then this is not a sufficient evidence base to claim that leonid kuchma ordered the murder of the journalist's contact, we need other evidence, and actually, the investigation had to analyze all versions, collect all possible evidence, which without denying some versions confirmed other versions. this is quite a difficult task and the further the case goes, the more time passes since the murder, the more difficult it is to establish the customers.

but i believe that in such cases there is always a person who wants to tell something before death, who, uh, knew something because he was, i don’t know, a bodyguard, a witness to something, and so on and in addition, i know that as of 2019, a lot of extremely valuable information and evidence related to the murder had already been collected, so i think that sooner or later unfortunately, it is quite late, but we will still find out the truth, well, what did kuchma say then i can use these quotes, they are already known to everyone, and they have been discussed for 20 years, 22 well, this is just for brazil, it’s already a waste for georgians, georgians, then just fucking, there ’s such a bitch, fucking. they beat him in georgia and they

will throw him out there, the chechens must have kidnapped him and thrown him out. these are the kinds of dialogues that were held in the presidential office of mrs. valentina, what the hell did he kill? well, he apparently killed gongadze, he killed, he pulled this belt in. it was this mistake. executor was it a task to kill georgy? do you think the trial is significant. if it was not a mistake of the executor, moreover, pukach specifically told personally about how he thought about the method, place and the like, that is, it was exactly pukach who knew what should be killed and had a clear the clear intention to shoot down the journalist was not there, it was not the excess of the performer, well, it is also known that mykola died in prison, it seems that they called the riots. and the others, kostenko and popovych, in what condition

are they now? i understand that they already had to get out of prison, well, it doesn't matter what the punishment was, what was the punishment, it didn't work out, you know , in fact, for society, it matters who was the customer today, and, uh, is the punishment really taking place ? everything else - it is no longer significant for more than 9 million ukrainians have left our country since the beginning of the full-scale invasion, according to surveys, only 7% of refugees plan to return home, others are waiting for the end of the war or the deoccupation of their cities e our colleague tetyana litvinova met with a buchanka woman who returned home as soon as the city began to come to life. why did the woman make such a decision. let's see in the plot, out of fear of shock and

confusion, she gathered the children, but i stood with these suitcases and i did not understand what to take what to take, how can you pack your whole life the desire to save the children, i didn't know what to do, i drove away. that's all to the hatred of the invaders, i realized that i will not be deterred, the shaking disappeared and the return home with the desire to help others, every child is mine child every house - this is my house every place - this is my city ah and i can have two ways to drown in this grief and pain or to do something i chose the second way this is iryna mother of two daughters design teacher fashion designer and volunteer in 2010 she moved from the donetsk region, later the family settled in buch, a suburb of kyiv, we came to this

park with my dad. it was very cool. we lay down on the green, very beautiful lawn. apartments already in on the first day of the offensive, iryna took these pictures. these are the same helicopters that landed the russian landing force in gostomel. the family first went to friends in a private house. and in a few days, iryna and her children went abroad, first to poland and then to portugal. i have no words to say how i am grateful to the people who met us. it was incredible , they prepared so much abroad, the families helped with housing and everything necessary, the local priest even made a tattoo with the coat of arms of ukraine, the local residents supported the ukrainians so much, but

in spite of everything, the woman's heart was not in the right place. that was what depressed me so much and gave me air to breathe . and i was completely helpless in portugal . i did nothing for my country, for my country, for my ukraine. on easter in april, iryna came to her hometown to see her husband. but even without children it was very cold and there was a very strong smell of harry's despair and the occupation. i don't know the emptiness and i don't know. it seemed to me that the heart of my city stopped beating, but the most difficult thing was to see my house . my apartment is right below us on the seventh floor. a projectile hit here on march 18, and fortunately there was no one here anymore, now the residents

are trying to cover the roof with their own strength, otherwise after the frost the whole house will become uninhabitable, despite the fact that the apartment was damaged by shelling in may , the family returned home although they are now in rented accommodation, iryna coordinates the work of the italian volunteer fund and deals with targeted assistance, we have a-a goal to unite all volunteers of buchi and the community so that we do not duplicate the function of one another, a woman says that she was abroad it is much more difficult. at home, the walls of signs of gratitude for support are also being treated. iryna wants to learn portuguese and go to the country again, just for a visit. i love my country. i will never leave here. i know that i must do everything and raise my children like this. let them continue to

raise our country tetyana litvinova oleksandr burlevich espresso kyiv thank you tetyana litvinova for this story and valentina tolychenko was previously our guest, a human rights activist, a public figure, we talked with her about the judges and about georgy zhive historian andriy rukas should join us, we will wait for him at the center of history, e-e faculty , taras shevchenko institute, scientific advisor of the holocaust memorial center, by all means. war on the side of germany, the soviet red army invaded the territory of poland annexed eastern galicia, volhynia, western podlissia and western belarus, so the soviet troops fulfilled the secret molotov-ribbentrop agreement on they were silent for a very long time and russia managed to sell and

produce this bridge about the myth of the great victory well, in fact, how it all began is worth unraveling historian andrii, hand is with us p andriyu we congratulate you good day good day i congratulate you, we have video material about golden september as how it all began let's look at it and then we will ask you on the morning of september 17, 1939, six soviet armies with a total of more than 600,000 soldiers crossed the polish border along the entire stretch from polotsk to kamianets-podilskyi by the end of the day soviet as the locals called them, they were already in rivne, ternopil, kolomyia and other cities, the troops were followed by chekists who seized strategic objects, post offices, banks, newspaper editorial offices already on september 22, the red army entered lviv, resistance was minimal after

all, poland threw all its forces on the western front against hitler which attacked the country two weeks earlier, the blow from two sides was the result of the signing of secret protocols to the molotov-ribbentrop pact, by which nazi germany and the stalinist ussr divided europe into spheres of influence soviet propaganda worked for the full occupation of the territory of an independent state, described as the reunification of western ukraine with the soviet union and the liberation of ukrainians from the centuries-old oppression of the poles, on the pages of the invasion newspapers they gave the poetic name golden september in the first months of the soviet government and really tried to flirt with ukrainians who were subjected to political, cultural and religious discrimination along with the october and soviet streets ivan franko and lesya ukrainka appeared, many ukrainians they accepted it with enthusiasm, but very quickly it turned into disappointment, and thus horror. first, the

soviets attacked the intelligentsia and priests, then the peasants, and the rest, many hours of interrogations, torture , shootings and deportations became the masses. how many died then is still unknown. but only in june 1941 in prisons more than 20,000 galicians were killed. the golden september of 1939 became red with blood because in lviv, even on september 17, not only were the streets named lesya ukrainka after ivan franko, but there was a street on september 17, in particular, which is now called sichovyh the shooters are there near lviv university. andriyka is with us. andriyu, we congratulate you once again. how should we treat this date? now you can hear us. what alternatives do we have? i hear very well. what

alternatives do we have? how should we treat this date ? the invasion of poland was actually an attack without a declaration of war by the soviet union, but some communist historians there say that in this way stalin gathered ukrainian lands and we should be thankful that the present ukraine was formed thanks to stalin, he gathered western ukraine . gathered bukovyna, he gathered part of odesa oblast there. that is, there is part of transylvania, here is ukraine, then crimea. well, it was no longer stalin, it was later, so we have to thank the soviet army and individuals. of ukrainian lands was announced a little earlier in 1919, the act of zluka on january 22, 1919, and by the way, representatives from bukovyna transcarpathia were also present there, that is,

two ukrainian independent states declared their desire to unify and exist in one council of ukraine 20 years before stalin did it, and it was a real ukrainian unification, stalin only used this national map to justify his aggression against poland, in fact , it was only a cover for his plans in kharkiv and nothing more than that, what did he bring good to the ukrainians, to the belarusians, or to the same polish jews who lived there, he did not bring anything good, he brought mass repressions, he brought executions collectivization in the end, then other things, let's say so, that accompanied the soviet secession, we have to look at this in your opinion

to nazi germany and to the soviet union , that is, germany is considered a beginner as a person, lord, a state that started the second world war by attacking poland 1 september, and the soviet union and the aggressor absolutely so, well, throughout history, the soviet union, which also attacked poland only 17 days later, after i remind you, appears on september 14, the legitimate government of poland escaped to great britain, if i am not mistaken , correct me now, they attacked on the 17th, and the union was already . well, it was not considered such an absolute disaster in world history, as well as in the perception of world historians, like nazi germany, which attacked first literally 17 days earlier please, let's start with the fact that the third reich lost the second world war , lost completely, the territory of germany was occupied and for a long enough time, germany was even

deprived of its statehood, let's say, and the nuremberg tribunal was held on the nazi criminals on the leaders of the third reich, respectively , the entire international community said clearly and unequivocally that nazism, hitlerism is absolutely evil, and the stalinist soviet union , having entered the second world war as an ally of hitler, ended it as a member of the anti-hitler coalition. the beginning of the 90s, when the soviet regime fell, everything happened to the soviet union, when it collapsed , the organization of the warsaw pact collapsed, and democratic governments came to power in eastern european countries, communism did not pass judgment the essence of communism is not branded as evil, just as it happened with hitler's nazism, well, this is the first circumstance that did not allow, let's say so,

historians in the west, let many historians in eastern europe say their unequivocal word on this matter. and the next point is of a purely formal nature it is absolutely clear, but from a legal point of view, war was not declared for the soviet union. it was a so-called liberation campaign or an offensive operation, or using the modern russian naveya spetszap-operation a-a poland instead, the polish leaders announced only the following declarations of a political nature, calling it a blow in the back or soviet aggression, the word war from the poles did not sound, they also did not declare war on the soviet union and the polish allies of great britain, france, therefore, this is the period from 39 to 41 soviet the world war union outside the boundaries of this great world conflict, but

once again i emphasize a purely formal point of view, although in fact the soviet union entered the second world war in this way on september 17, 1939, and then it was the so-called finnish company, the soviet-finnish war and the occupation of the baltics, and this must also be considered in the context of the second world war, and about the polish government. unfortunately, i have to correct you. the polish government left the territory of its country only in the second half on september 17, after the soviet troops entered the territory of poland and under the influence of the information that members of the government could fall into the hands of the soviets, a decision was made to move to the territory of romania, and already on the territory of romania members the polish government was interned, and in france other people continued polish statehood and poland was formed, that is, in emigration, those people who retreated to romania were no longer involved

in the polish government that existed in emigration during the second world war, that is, in england, the polish government it was not the right station. no, he was. he was first in france, and after the defeat of france, he moved to the territory of great britain . andriy, what was the attitude of the local ukrainian population, well, these are the so-called first soviets of it was called here in western ukraine in the period of 39-41 years, because my native unfortunately, the late grandmother said that she lived there in luschyki, an idol, a cross, the village was called a cross, she said. that's enough with joy. since here the situation with the polish authorities was peculiar to the ukrainian population, well, the relations are peculiar in the same way, and in the 41st year, many people met with flowers and vermakh, because, well, they were fed up, and from the first soviets, there were also quite a lot, so how is this story

the period you evaluate to your question, the vast majority of ukrainians met the soviets with a certain enthusiasm and hope. well, firstly , soviet propaganda worked very well, creating an attractive picture of life in the soviet union . formally, according to the law, there were no national, religious, other differences , instead, in real life, ukrainians really felt the same as representatives of other belarusian jews of nationalities felt a fairly significant consequence and understood . thus they hoped to improve their situation . well, we can talk about the fact that the first few weeks are important. a month and the situation was not threatening, but then after these

territories were incorporated . i.e. became part of the soviet union, soviet ukraine, respectively, soviet belarus, and all the authorities that functioned on the territory of the soviet union were established there, and the soviet machine was oppressed by repressions. then the local population felt what it was really like to live under soviet rule, that is, this transitional period when the territory did not formally become part of the soviet union, but was under the control of the temporary military administration of the creation of authorities, but later they were eliminated, active repression of those people who occupied those who were in the state service , teachers, railway workers, military police, members of political parties and various of public organizations. initially, it was

mainly poles, but later in the 40s, the 40s, especially the 41st year, repressions already began against representatives of the ukrainian intelligentsia, and we noticed, let's say, ukrainian figures, and if it were not for the attack of germany, the next large such national group which fell under the soviet repressions after the poles should have become ukrainians in western ukraine. andriy, can we draw parallels with these days? i mean in relation to some humanitarian, social, political russia's policy of the soviet fuse in the occupied territories of ukraine, kharkiv oblast, donbas, kherson oblast, zaporizhzhia oblast, parts of the occupied territories now with the policy pursued by the russians, the soviet union in 1939, 40-41, on the western ukrainian lands, are there any parallels , what is the total number of people killed and evicted people

from that period of 39-41, the so-called first soviets, well, of course, parallels can be drawn, but we must remember that these events are separated from each other at a fairly large time distance and took place in different and historical and political conditions within the framework of fundamentally different states, but there are definitely some parallels, first of all, this is the repressive nature of the soviet government, and then what was the russian occupation power in those territories that it managed to capture in ukraine -th next- about carrying out mass repressions, which are primarily directed against e notable e-e people from the communities , against activists, against participants in hostilities, against servicemen of the ukrainian army, against law enforcement officers, by the way, against ukrainian pro-ukrainian ukrainian teachers who are actively

are replaced by russians, and the fate of these people is that today it is tragic, we can talk about mass repression against the ukrainian population. today, unfortunately, we have to talk about repression against the local ukrainian, jewish, belarusian, polish population, then... it was the russians who then engaged in mass deportations of resettlement from the beginning of the poles, and then the ukrainians began to deport belarusian jews, and we, too, today, russia is engaged in driving out the local population on the territory of russia, and then distributing it there to the far north to the far east or to some central sparsely populated regions, that is, there are actually a lot of parallels, and the most important thing is that you can’t believe because they go under the same slogans and do completely different things. in fact, it is a repressive

punitive machine, that is, the soviets, er, putin’s regime to a large extent does not copy the third paradise because it largely copies the stalinist ussr a-a with all the inherent features such as gulak, the nkvd, mass deportations, repressions , that is, we can actually say that to a certain extent in the occupied territory of ukraine , the grandchildren and grandchildren of those people who came to western ukraine and western belarus in september 1939 came today, who repeats what their children did then. is a legend walking or a joke, a legend is faster, but to what extent does it have er to life, the reality that the soviet troops entered, well, the analogy is if they are now in the kyiv region, there in the sumy region, in the chernihiv region, they took out the toilets yes, from that ukrainian toilets to the occupied

in the occupied towns, then in lviv, they are from the night pots that the poles used in order to drink water at night. i'm sorry, they used them like vases. here, this story is reality, please. of course, the usual element of humor is present in all stories, but this story is based on on an absolutely unrealistic basis, and really , you soviet soldiers and commanders who came to western ukraine in september 1939 were simply unfamiliar with many things, because as a result of the bolshevik coup, russia was rejected several decades ago in their cultural and civilizational development and the population lived extremely in such very impoverished conditions and about many things that were inherent in western european culture, people did not even have a clue. therefore, these are absolutely real things and the next moment it is also recorded in many

memories and in in the memories of the participants of those events from the soviet side, it was considered a great happiness to receive a business trip to western ukraine in the 39th 40th year for, well, for some purpose there, even a person does not necessarily have to be a military person there, i don't know a theater worker, a teacher, an employee of some kind of city economy there, for the establishment of that, in quotes, let’s call it peaceful soviet life, they receive business trips, they come to lviv there, lutsk, rivne, stanislavovo, and thanks to this, they significantly improve their financial situation