the head of the representatives of the collaborators in the territories of the areas occupied by the russians, because, let's say, in luhansk, ukraine does not take responsibility and even western experts say that it looks like some kind of internal showdown, well, in berdyansk, it does not really look like an internal showdown, and yet what is happening is partisan movement, is there such a struggle of spiders in a jar, which is absolutely normal for a criminal choir person, too. if you can first of all remove completely, well, maximum clarity and truth and details, we can talk about it learn and speak publicly already after the ukrainian victory and after the liberation of the country from the occupiers, as of today, these are different examples , the final one, yes, that is, there is the work of the ukrainian resistance movement, there are internal inter-plan clashes by the occupiers and resoluters. well, i do not rule out that there are really accidents.

well, maybe someone really smoked in the wrong place, but the finale is for the collaborator. no matter what choice he chooses, traitors are not needed by anyone, and the history of the so-called dnr and even eight years ago shows that that the russians absolutely do not appreciate and do not reward traitors with anything, when they need to be replaced, they are simply disposed of, and this is what we can also observe now that the only way to save life is to surrender to the mercy of ukrainian justice, and it is in a ukrainian prison that any state traitors, the collaborator will be the most protected, moreover, he will be fed , clothed, and be in a warm place. any other scenarios for him will most likely end in a fatal fatal final. the intelligence department of the ministry of defense of ukraine and we will continue to discuss with you the events related

to the liberation of kharkiv oblast, but i already said this to the black man because we are talking about what is happening in izyum about the finding of these mass graves oleksandr pavlichenko, executive director of the ukrainian helsinki union of human affairs congratulations mr. oleksandr congratulations congratulations well, first of all, let's talk about what is happening with this mass burial, how did it turn out that people died in such a large number? is this a mass execution? is it just a burial of people who died at different times? it is very important to try to understand everything now. yes, we do not have complete information yet, but uh, from those reports that were earlier, it seems that it is still uh, the burial of different people. in different periods and actually , there are quite a lot of burial places. there are about 10 burial places, they are located in different locations , and even when we talk about

who is buried, there are like civilians, civilians, those with signs of torture, civilians which have signs on well, as it was stated that 99% have signs of violent death, that is, they died not er but in their own natural way no no not natural death i apologize and er there are servicemen of the armed forces of ukraine or bodies in the form of servicemen there are bodies of servicemen in the form of armed forces of the russian situation. that is, these are very different categories that are located in the same territory, buried without any often recognizable identifying personal data, that is, it is impossible to clearly establish who it is uh, according to some signs, uh, let's say on the christs, on

those burial elements that are preserved or that are present on the bodies, can we say, mr. alexander, that most likely it was civilians who dug up these graves and hid them because there are crosses there, but there are some inscriptions who are the russians, if we remember the buchansk district, they simply buried them all in one grave, or mariupol, they did n’t care that it would be extremely difficult to identify the bodies afterwards. yes, by the way, this is a very good question, who actually buried them and where did they come from? then there were these bodies and er, as a rule, er, most of all, these are er, those who are local and worked er, maybe somewhere

with communal services, at least imagine that these services remained in working order during the six months of occupation it's quite difficult eh but nevertheless there are certain instructions eh that show the place of origin of these bodies from where they were delivered and eh well, when we compare the situation, for example, with a beech with an eh gostomel a-a then eh- in this case, we see that the bodies were properly removed. let me remind you immediately, starting from february 24. this year there was a question about the fact that dozens of bodies were in the open air and were not cleaned and were not buried on the territory of buchi, on the territory of irpen, on the territory of vorzel, and it lasted for more than three weeks. this is the situation. let me remind

you that it was winter, february, and even uh, under those temperature conditions, uh, the bodies decomposed, uh, what can we say about the summer heat and the dead who, uh, could have been on uh, let's say, the streets of zyum, uh, after they died, and uh, we said that 99% of practically all the dead have uh, uh, signs violent death, but most of them are probably still civilians who suffered from cycles who died as a result of er and the conduct of hostilities, and the second part is those who were killed and tortured er by the russian occupation that ruled these six months ago, do you remember the first the body that was exhumed was with broken

limbs and a rope around the neck. that is, this is evidence of the use of torture and actually a possible violent n- maybe even a violent death even as a result of the given tortures. i want to ask you about the cases of uh in principle, which are currently being tracked by human rights defenders , because other episodes may be lost against the background of this raisin tragedy, there are, in principle, they are, and there are quite a lot of them, there is a huge array of people who are considered missing, but some of them are in er, they are individuals which in fact could already be uh they were sneaked out by those uh russians who occupied the territories and uh hmm part of them they already uh can let's just say it will never be found uh this is uh a separate part is a large

number of messages and facts related to e-e the tragedy of mariupol, and in this case, we are actually waiting for another, well, the opening of another tragic page of this war, uh, mainly, human rights defenders work. for example, the organizations that are involved in documentation, here is our coalition, the tribunal, and not the initiative i apologize for putin, are engaged in documentation a-a war crimes and at the same time providing e-e legal assistance and support to the victims where it is possible to correct the situation by turning to law enforcement bodies to international bodies i remind you that until september 16 there was an opportunity to apply to the european court of human rights, for example, according to the same rule 39 of the court's work regulations for the sake of life, urgent measures to correct

the situation. that is, we work with such cases and there are a lot of such cases, they concern our prisoners of war - this is a separate tragic page , they concern civilian hostages, they concern those who suffered from war crimes, oleksandr. it is also interesting, first of all, which international organizations are documenting these crimes so that we understand so that in the future, to whom do we let's turn to the evidence that they see here, the profiling of all this, and secondly , is it even possible to prove who exactly did this, who killed, how do we determine it, because the bodies have already spent a certain amount of time there, i don't know there or simply some natural biological processes of decomposition are taking place, or is it possible to find traces and here are these evidences and facts to later determine which

military serviceman of the russian federation did it, yes, two good questions, well, first of all , law enforcement agencies and to those until they collect all the evidence there, e.e., entry to that territory is prohibited and there are, let's say, some activities e.e. research monitoring e.e. for anyone only under the control of law enforcement agencies because it is a crime scene and from international organizations e.e. international experts who work in how criminalists provide assistance in laboratory tests have the opportunity to establish dna, it is in agreement with the office of the prosecutor general, they are on the territory of ukraine, they can be admitted to this site in order to assist in the collection evidence that is also transferred to ukrainian law enforcement agencies, in addition,

representatives of the international criminal court can also collect evidence, and accordingly, such a procedure also exists, but as of today, i think that they are not yet in the territory of the in the kharkiv region where it happened eh, this is another story and eh, when we talk about how to establish a connection between the eh victims who died and those who committed these crimes, this issue is really quite difficult because uh maybe those who committed these murders have already died as a result of the introduction of hostilities. maybe they are still alive and fled to the territory of the russian federation, but in what way should the responsibility come before the whole, when we talk about responsibility at the state level, namely it should stand and raise the question when we

talk about e-e prosecution for the commission of the crime of aggression and for the commission of war crimes e-e at the level of an international criminal court or a special tribunal on aggression, what about now we are talking about when these things will be determined , let's say the proven facts of the commission of crimes by the aggressor state are confirmed by these specific evidences, such as raisin, bucha, mariupol , and this will become a basis for bringing at the international level to responsibility because bringing to responsibility at the national level at the level of ukraine the highest officials of the russian state, i will remind you, is impossible because of the different factors of the same functional immunity and when we

are talking about individual legal responsibility, i.e., to find the one in a particular murderer who tortured, who broke his arms, who killed those who died, and the investigators of the national police and the office of the prosecutor general of ukraine will also work here in order to conduct a maximum investigation and establish which military units of the russian federation were in this territory during which time did it coincide with these deaths that have been recorded and it is possible to establish the date of the commission, there will be other evidence , let me remind you that we still have an era of digital let's put it this way, in detail, it's not just about literacy, it's about literacy. we live in a digital age when there are quite a lot of opportunities to record

telephone conversations, to intercept the opportunity to record via satellite images, the territory . what is happening in this territory and this is the complex use of all these methods of research with a combination with a possible possible arrest of those who are suspected and then their subsequent interrogation by an investigation conducted properly with that to establish all the facts er let me remind you that we have already initiated criminal cases, and there are even persons convicted under the same article 438 of the criminal code, which provides for prosecution for violating the customs of the introduction of war , and these are specific examples of how prosecution in criminal order and the search for

the culprits. yes, indeed. this is a big problem. and here , uh, without the cooperation of both international structures and national ones, and it is possible even if it changes, even if it changes. so far, there is little hope for the authorities in russia. the proposal that it constitutes criminals and will extradite them to ukraine to serve a sentence and to bring them to justice, there can be such a brilliant story, as european experience knows, for example , in the balkan countries, this is not a matter of one year, but we know that and war crimes do not have a statute of limitations and will be prosecuted, it can happen either in a year or in 20 years, but please tell me what the role of international organizations can be in general, how do you look at how international human rights organizations now accept russian crimes against the background of the latest statements

to me, these international - this is a very relevant issue , we are talking about e-e international organizations of the human rights headquarters as amnesty international human rights watch or international organizations such as the council of europe such as e-e garbage international human rights defenders organizations, it’s normal mr. oleksandrovych this is your colleague, i want you to explain to us why there are such changes in temperature in their statements eh i think it is necessary to have access closer to the head of that organization of the body for in order to ask what actually happened because, analyzing the materials presented by the same amnesty international, it seems that on the fourth of august they published an announcement about the prepared report on the imaginary crimes of the ukrainian military who were stationed in peaceful settlements and

actually made them a target for such apparently neutral conquerors who fight according to all the rules. here i can say very briefly that in principle, in this case, it was about manipulative material. why did he end up in public access and became such a wave of information, i think that it was planned. it was predictive. actually, it seems to me to be evidence of certain diseases, which he suffers from. let's say for a bureaucratized organization that reaches such a general level because containers international is an organization that works on all continents, it is well-known and there is a certain level of

trust in its expertise, just like humin raid svovoch. but i can say that manipulations can be, let 's say, planned and programmed and supported and most likely this is happening er why er what is it motivated or er reinforced well we can only guess but without conducting any kind of investigation this should be done internally by the organization itself i think we can only make assumptions but that's it you probably have a concrete indicator that from august 4, when the first material was published, until today, the report was not made public. let's say an analysis of that report in order to prove how objective it is and can be made public, we don't know anything about the work

of these experts, even though the past month and a half, er, not about any apologies, or about er, other fate er- with that previous first statement, therefore, it is basically a blow to the image of such an international organization. i think that it is quite significant, serious . i think that it will force other such, let's say, not quite objective and not quite pure players. think about how much it is possible to make such statements and play into the aggressor's hand because it was actually a manipulative game supported by russia. we remember that even on the diplomatic front there were statements of something, let's now see what such good human rights organizations tell us, it actually happened and it seems to me that it was one of those, well, not a

battle, but such attacks on the information front, they began to lose donors. by the way, thank you, mr. oleksandr, oleksandr pavlichenko , executive director of ukrainian helsinki we have human rights associations, volodymyr vasylenko is in touch, a diplomat, a defender of rights, an international professor at the national university of the kyiv-mohyla academy. about the reputation itself, but they think about the russian one. happy vitaliy day to all from the tv viewers, well, the reputation of the uh, the international, well, to put it mildly, she was tortured because of the uh, she was in 2014, when the aggression of russia began against ukraine at that time, the so-called

international experts confirmed and tried to prove that war crimes are committed by ukrainians by attacking the very objects of peaceful infrastructure, so there is nothing strange here, there is a russian trace there, and unfortunately it continues, and the reputation of this organization is very low because of that it is better not to deal with her, but to deal with more solid organizations of volodymyr. the other day, she was in our country for the third time already during the full-scale tournament of the russian federation on our territory. for which we are definitely grateful. what is interesting is that

she gave an interview in the bild publication and stated that, well, appeal to such and such to germany. of course, what if ukraine asks tanks, so she needs them and needs to be given them, and she allegedly does not understand germany’s refusals. and why do they have a lot of arguments and do not give us this necessary equipment, in particular, a tank? do you think this position of the head of the european commission will help anyway it is possible for germany to change the german government's mind directly to lofl scholz to the chancellor. after all, they have such a stable position and it will not change yet. well, it is difficult for me to get into scholz's head and, so to speak, read his thoughts on germany's future actions regarding the supply of weapons to ukraine, but what

his party is doing to this day, and er, that means a mockery of lum , who are not invested in any criticism. well, in the words of underling, she absolutely clearly indicated the er need of ukraine and recommended that we say it i would like to change my behavior, i would say so, but how will they behave , obviously, it depends on the position of not only andriyan as the head of the commission, but also on the european union from the europrovement. by the way, i would like pay attention to the speech on underling in the

european parliament, which was already held here literally three days ago, and after her visit to kyiv , a very powerful speech eh and eh andria again emphasized that it was approved by the parliamentarians that ukraine is fighting alone on he himself fights with russia on the battlefield, defending not only his own security and independence, but also the important geopolitical vital interests of the west, and therefore, ukraine needs the help of those guys in terms of the amount and the nomenclature of weapons, what kind of weapons with whom ukraine is contacting, the second thing is to emphasize the anticline, from my point

of view, it is very important, it is, when addressing the mothers, they said that this is many years in a row, in the past, the states of eastern europe warned us of the pro-russian threat, we ignored these warnings and did not take any measures. i hope that now the following conclusions will be made and the member states of the european union, as well as other members of the international community, are serious, including germany, and have become more serious. therefore, it is to the needs of ukraine and the pronunciation of ukraine as a state that is on its own are fighting against russian aggression, defending not only their interests, they have the legal and

political moral right not to ask, but to demand that it be given to our armed forces, that nomenclature of armed forces and such quantities that are necessary for victory in the war against putin's russia. as far as, in principle, it can be considered that ms. fundalyan's words that ukraine is successfully advancing through its european integration are now an assessment of a specific action, and not an advance, well, of course, ukraine is taking some steps in the direction of future membership in the european union and today we observe

a more favorable attitude of the states in the members of the european union and the commission regarding these new methyl ukraine however, no, this is not what is decisive today, this is not a priority today for ukraine to pursue membership in the european union well, imagine today ukraine is invited to join the european union and becomes a member of the european union well, how will this help victory in the war with russia in any way, that is why today the priority of priorities for ukraine and for western democrats is the concentration of efforts aimed at

victory in in the war with russia, it can be done again by ramstadt characters, but in april of this year, during a meeting of the defense ministers of the 43 countries, a group to ban ukraine was created, and this is a very positive step. actually in fact, it was announced about the creation of an anti- punin coalition and it was agreed that weapons would be supplied to ukraine in such quantities and of such quality that they are necessary for victory now. this format of the ee-vakshetovsk should be improved and expanded, that is, economic, political and legal elements should be introduced, for this it is obviously

necessary to create because this is my vision, the contact group on the coordination of sanctions against russia and the contact group on the issues of post-war peaceful settlement within the framework of these groups. well, the sanctions need to be strengthened much more. more effective in order to simultaneously with e-e actions e on the battlefield cause such economic damage to e russia that would lead to the collapse of the putin regime and, in accordance with the responsibility of russia as a state for the act of aggression, war crimes for crimes against humanity and as for the group and peacefully settlement and there should be developed

a draft of a peace agreement with russia as a state responsible for those international crimes that it has committed and not clearly modality of this e-e responsibility and the specifics of responsibility for aggression lies in the fact that the aggressor state must not only compensate for all the economic losses suffered by the state directly affected by the aggression, but also those states that will participate in the age of aggression. sanctions economic situations against with the help of the state of ganda podilskyi coalition under