but at the time of access to nato, we have other tasks and this is exactly what is described in the security recommendations of the yermak commission, and this is exactly what the president spoke about when he signed the application for nato. nato is our specific goal, but until then we have a number of recommendations regarding security guarantees for ukraine, these are binding documents, kyiv security contact, about access to intelligence information about investments, the military-industrial complex, about permanent military assistance, what is currently being given athog to make his system, well, this our more tactical goal and we must deal with it and all nato members do not object to this, they help and we are going to sign already more specific documents of nato members well, we can assume mr. igor, but we all remember the fifth article of this collective agreement of the alliance members on the protection each other in case of threats, but there are 14 of them, if i'm not mistaken, or more. well, somewhere like that, and here is one of them, which means that

an alliance member country that has been a member of nato for more than 10 years means that it can propose changes to of this collective agreement, and this country itself can propose, for example, to change this agreement so that not all 30 members decide, and that they decide in some other way. someone will be against it, and therefore any of our efforts will be nullified, now there are more chances that something will be changed in the eu or the un than in hnat, therefore well, from what i see inside and from what i see, even though there is opposition within nato, between turkey and greece, between turkey and germany, and this is very clearly visible, for example, at the parliamentary assemblies when they clash with each other, turkey is such a player

on several boards at once, and they also understand that if there is such a mechanism that deprives them, for example, of turkey, of the right to vote, then they will not vote for it conditionally speaking as in how in the un the general assembly is the main decision-making body and it can make any decision conditionally speaking about changing the un charter about exclusion the russian federation from the security council and so on. and so on. in principle, 13 and 30 of these countries can initiate, but 30 are also needed for this, and a country that understands who they are playing against , well, that is, it is itself. yes, it simply will not vote against itself. i am not sure that there will be any restructuring in this contract or a change in the principle of voting, then one more

small clarification, then we have a problem with hungary. well, for example, it is not new. that is, it did not appear there against the background of national minorities and languages ​​and so on. and these are excuses. well, for them, well , for them, yes, but it will not go anywhere. and hungary today emphasizes that it is taking a course on russia and on gas and energy resources, on the money that the eu can deny them, such the other thing is , can we talk about the fact that hungary will be the stumbling block that will remain for her in the future ? and we see again the history with turkey in sweden and finland, yes, they rolled out some conditions regarding the kurds, what else? and this is all a negotiation process again after all, there is turkey ah-ah hmm, he wants to get out of this business by purchasing electronic weapons from the united states, and these were also conditions. i think that here, when 29 countries will conditionally be in favor, but hungary will be against, then leverage will be found for it, as it is now in

the european union to a decrease in funding, hungary is still a country dependent on the community, not even turkey, which has become more independent in its issues, so i do not rule out that there will be surprises , but these surprises will be presented because, as mr. bohdan correctly said, the united states they also focus on germany, they focus on the united states, they focus on eastern europe, plus there is canada, britain, and on germany, western europe , and they directly tell me that, for example, there are portuguese people who say and what about germany, they have something like this for you. if so, then in principle we are ready and that's it i think that just such a balance of forces will be, uh, when we get the main ones, yes, with other points, nevertheless, i want to explain .

that it was possible or what changed procedurally, why didn't we do it before, some obstacles have fallen since february 24, a lot has changed in his policy to go. when we were finally told no, and what was impossible before the 24th now, in principle, does not seem so it is impossible, as i already said, and now we are even waging such a political and diplomatic struggle to exclude the russian federation from the un security council or even deprive it of the right to veto, which in principle was unimaginable until the 24th, now a lot of things are changing, there is a precedent and this is exactly most important that for sweden and finland such a path was found that excludes the pdp and, again, the pdp

is not an axiom. to be honest, i have a very big question about, for example, bulgaria and romania, which were included in 1997 , whether they met all the criteria and all the standards. was it still a political decision, and i believe that after all, political who i jumped in earlier, so it was more flattering, but on the other hand, in principle, we are too. we have already mentioned this. we have already done a lot in order to give a full-fledged member. we will return to this topic, but let's just remind our viewers and ourselves that the history of ukraine and nato is mutually began on march 15, 1992, that is, a long time ago, when ukraine joined the north atlantic cooperation council, and two years later became the first among the cis countries to join the partnership for peace program in 2008 at the bukhara summit

the heads of state and government of the nato countries unanimously assured ukraine then and georgia in the future of nato membership, this intention was confirmed in the summer of the 21st, the ukrainian parliament, in its turn, in december 2014 supported the president's draft law on the rejection of non-aligned status, and in february 2019 approved amendments to the constitution , which established the euro-atlantic and european course of ukraine, with the beginning of the war, relations were difficult , the ukrainian government and the whole people expected more effective help from the alliance, well, the next step after the application to join nato and the formalization of ukraine's invitation to join, the minister of foreign affairs, dmytro kuleba, made a statement about this, decisions must be made by consensus by all members of the alliance, and we have already mentioned this. president volodymyr zelenskyi has already tasked the entire diplomatic team to prepare for bilateral negotiations with member countries when the alliance emphasized that ukraine is already a de facto member of nato, it remains to formalize this de jure as soon as possible and without an action plan

regarding membership, mr. bohdan, the question is we we hear the position of the president's office that it is unlikely that ukraine will become a member of nato, but rather that it will not become a member of nato, so what does this give us if we still have to play for ourselves to win, what does this application give us, well, the application first of all starts the procedure, so that is procedures are sometimes also important, i.e. it is one thing when there are discussions and the exchange of statements is another thing when some official procedures are already started, which sometimes really last quite a long time, this is the first and second question. i will clarify why this is really the case. i think it is adequate understanding that it is quite difficult to win, so to speak, to assess the really real chances that we will join nato directly, because nato is such a security club, first of all, which thinks

only more about its internal interests, that is, it prioritizes the security of those members who are in alliance in the first place and they sometimes really consider these risks and when, for example, we have a russian war going on right now, yes, this russian aggression can be obtained from them there are certain arguments that it is possible, uh, it can negatively affect their security, that is, the club that was formed before i i think it will really be much easier when we win and everything will be prepared directly so that the procedural issues will end successfully for ukraine, but for this, again, it is necessary to work at different levels: at the parliamentary level, at the government level, at the political level, now at the party level i also always emphasize the importance of inter-party cooperation between our ukrainian representatives of certain

political forces and those representatives of political forces in nato member states directly and with our traditional partners who support us, but in addition, mr. yehor knows exactly how important it is to meet with those who can either be skeptical or avoid, let's say, a concrete answer, you also need to work with them first of all, let it be more than one meeting, let alone two, but water sharpens a stone and if in this process we should really go to our goal to article five directly which allows us to protect our citizens from this russian aggression and thank you mr. igor in continuation then they mentioned article five regarding the protection of each other but we offered alternatives even at the end of last year and already this year, when the war was already large-scale with regard to parallel alternative security alliances, i.e. by the same well, as if distancing us from nato, we are now talking about the

political component, will there be this political will, you know how it is behind the black this there was no thesis, but are there still certain nuances that distance us from being accepted into the alliance because, for example, they can say that you did not have a referendum? well, as an option , which also cannot be held while the war continues there are common disputes over the territory , for example with the russian federation, which legalized the annexation there and tried to annex new territories. well, and so on, that is, from a legal point of view, there may be some snags, or here only if there is political will, then they will turn a blind eye to everything and accept, of course , all will be used arguments about which you said and again next week we will not join nato yet but every day we will take small steps forward even in peacetime it took bulls well wartime it will be shorter but all the same, there will be a lot of procedures for each question, there will be counterarguments, when we

made out an application for candidacy in the eu, we filled out a book there, that is, all the ministries sat for a couple of months and wrote answers to the questionnaire and these volumes were transferred there, that is, from nato, there were such the army fights according to nato standards, that's already cool. it's actually nato, the fact that we have political reforms in many respects is also cool, but there will be a huge list of issues. it is visa-free. 192 votes in the council were held on nato there will also be a lot of people voting if there is a referendum, it is not excluded that at a certain stage it will still have to be held but it will already be when it is already on the eve of the entry itself then i immediately have a question for sure at the same pace - in which let 's do it in a foreseeable perspective in which period of time, we take her garden, well, i have a question for you, how do you imagine it, well, i wanted to be an optimist, of course, but we yes, i think that we are all euro-atlantic optimists here, but we see how much time it takes and, for example, entering sweden and

for finland, it's still months, and i think these months will stretch on for some time, well, it would be very good if they become nato members by the end of this year, that is, ugh, yes, it's more of a ratification, it's more of a bureaucratic procedure, each of the 30 countries must ratify its own decision to adopt a new member from the two members of sweden and finland, and this is only a bureaucratic procedure here, uh, we still have homework, despite the fact that every year we carried out national annual programs, which in fact, well, in fact, this is a de facto pdp pdch when it is given to the country, it is given after the e-e assessment of the state for today and what should the country do and then it is stitched into annual national programs this year should do this this next and so on and so on we have been doing it since 2008 for

13 years and we uh, we have done a lot during this time. if you compare 2008-2022 ukraine, then these are completely different countries. on february 24, we made a colossal leap in uh, standardization of our army according to nato standards, because western weapons, because tens of thousands of our hey guys and girls went through training abroad in britain, in poland, in other countries, because the interaction between nato countries and ours is more anthropomorphic, i will tell you that today ukraine interacts probably deeper than some other nato countries, in particular on the rammstein format, which was was created as an alternative to nato because there is conditionally hungary and it is very difficult to make all such decisions by consensus, but cooperation on armaments does not mean that only we were given some crabs and that's all

. ammunition and so on, this is already a combination of interaction with the plus, there is still consideration of this separate issue, which we have also deepened since february 24. if we take all of this, it becomes clear that we have taken a crazy step in de facto integration into nato, but nato is the military-political bloc means that yes, we have made progress in the military sphere, but the political bloc remains and it is economic - it is democratic standards and so on , but here we also have help from the european union because these are the criteria for entry to the european union in order to join nato, they are almost identical to these copenhagen criteria regarding the rule of law of the judicial system of

democratic institutions and so on, they are in principle that is, we will perform homework for two institutions at once. it may extend to a certain period of time after the end of the war or under time, that is, we are working on it right now, our task is to shorten this homework there between our victory and admission to there by months, but definitely not years, let's of winter information, the issue of non-aligned status for ukraine is closed, the advisor to the head of the president's office mykhailo podolyak said, he called the submission of an application to join nato a historic event that determines our future strategic vector , one thing must be understood, the transition of the war into a new phase, the attack on civilian critical infrastructure and the attempt to annex the territory leaves in in the past, the field for compromises and diplomatic settlement, of course, joining the alliance is not a matter of days

, weeks or months, it is a certain road, but the road is built under the steps of those who walk and in we understand something about the construction of such roads, because no one believed that ukraine would receive candidacy for the eu, which a week before the event. the movement of our aspirations, it also opens the door to the weapons that the alliance will help us with. is it really true? because until this moment we have seen help from the countries of the member states of the alliance and not from the alliance itself, which means that from now on we will start in large on the scale of keeping weapons from the alliance precisely on these practical issues, it is necessary to work. i think that because one thing does not exclude the other, the

process may be procedural, that is, on a political level, the president mentioned something, that is, yes, in fact, we are already part of it, but we also need all the legal ones go through the processes and, on the other hand , in parallel build this practical cooperation to strengthen our military-industrial complex , first of all, and these significant financial resources should also affect related enterprises, it is possible can be built on the territories of some eu member states while we are at war, that is, in order to secure this process, the rammstein format is basically such an analogy, because the state and the nato members are the overwhelming majority of them within the framework of this format, very effectively and quickly helping ukraine continues to be done, therefore, we should not limit ourselves only to the procedural process. and we

should really try to deepen this sectoral military cooperation, to increase the possibility of investments of financial assistance. trainings, they are often underestimated, as well as joint training in the future, but it is also a very important component that helps to strengthen our armed forces directly, and not only that, but significant resources are also spent. therefore, it can expand both quantitatively and qualitatively in such areas. i think that this is exactly what we really have to at all levels to work as much as possible. maybe you will add. maybe you have more information about the supply of weapons. it is from the alliance . for the future, when we are already with the application, i already talked about it. an alternative option is rammstein. because 30%. because 30 countries have to say yes, and we understand that 30 countries will not say so, and we

see it now. the alliance is emphasized because they are ready to help our victory, but not with lethal weapons, trainings, exercises, fuel and lubricants, anything but definitely not disarmament, that's why it's important for us to be members of the alliance, because rammstein is still a voluntary association , athox because now there is a war and we will help you, what will happen after the war, the same kyiv the compact, if it works or when it works, it will also meet our missile defense system for help with weapons or investments, but here we need to understand what we need and we. federation or give us a security umbrella so that you can fight for us there in the war with the russian federation

they are already behind they are already in the past because we say guys where can we fight ourselves as you see on our own land with the russian army us we need weapons and technical and material support from you, and that it should be on a voluntary basis and an obligation, this is exactly the format of nato for us , and yuriy, to you, then, well, this is enough uh, well, it is not an easy question, because we have repeatedly heard such a thesis from our guests that the victory of ukraine in this war against russia will not be an exit to the borders of 1991 , but actually the collapse of russia itself. this thesis has probably been heard many times, but let 's start by remembering where it all started with the warnings of president areffi and putin that nato is approaching our borders precisely because of the expansion there through ukraine and so on. it was poland, first of the baltic countries, and now ukraine, and that is why we are actually conducting a special operation, what is called a war, so i have a question, by the way,

recently, semi-president medvedev also spoke there what is the acceleration of the integration of ukraine, it will be the third world war and so on, they continue to scare others. yes, i have a question, but we are objective. if we talk about our prospects, this will happen when russia was developing conditions of existence in the current borders of the russian federation well, of course without er-er attempts at annexation yes and that is also possible on september 30, many events took place and this and and this is a show in the kremlin where four citizens signed something among themselves but of course more important is the application of ukraine in nato, and this is the president's statement that after such an attempt to annex territory with this president of the russian federation, we will not conduct negotiations, this gives us a certain image of victory for the future , there is no talk of the collapse of russia, because there are many reservations if instead of one russia there will be 20 little russians and each of them has a nuclear bomb for the world - this is

definitely not necessary and we also have 20 such neighbors with different flies in the head, but it is said that there will be a change of regime, it will be possible quickly, maybe not quickly, it will happen cost us dearly, but with all the new regime we will agree on something , including after our victory, it will be an agreement that they do not attack us and they do not make claims that we cannot join nato there and then it will be a tripartite agreement i.e. nato will also see even what hungary will see that the new russian regime already agrees to this and then it will have no political reservations and we will have relations with a new neighbor because we will not get anywhere from geography thousands of kilometers of common border do you see today, you are the new, qualitatively new faces of the russian political community , because if you look at the faces that sat at these celebrations, there was the last, well, extreme

speech of putin, yes, there, well, a lot of people are needed to replace without talking about the state duma as a whole. well, and so on, that is, who are these new faces ? and samsung was alive, they were taken out of prison when there were certain social upheavals , they became new leaders, there are several oppositionists who are there, there is another option - this is a softer change when the elites determine that the highest leaders are definitely leading them to the wrong place these days zelensky said that you are defined as a russian general by the ministers there because you have the person who brewed it all up, let's blame it all on me and somehow we will start anew but of course this includes the return of all territories and the contribution of reparations. that is what they mean. although, of course, certain special operations are informational operations are going on somewhere and we will

learn about them when they are declassified only later let 's add more information nato support me further ukraine in the war against russia if putin is allowed defeat you and it will be even more dangerous in the long term, said the secretary general of the alliance, general stoltenberg, assured that russia has already received clear signals from nato in the event of escalation, if russia stops fighting, there will be peace, if ukraine stops, it will be the end of its existence, nato will support ukraine in its independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity yehor, what kind of signal is this, they were probably transmitted through closed channels, but if you understand, well, give us a hint, what are nato's arguments and what do they say about their the answer in case of escalation, what do they say to russia here, i think it is more interesting the answer or the signals from the united states that indicate that the

consequences of, for example, the use of nuclear weapons, the consequences will be catastrophic for russia, not for putin, but for the kremlin, for russia, and catastrophic and here i think that there can be completely different planes like this uh what can happen not only in the military plan, how are there benhozhi brewed what will the black sea fleet be destroyed there as a first step in general yes and again as the first step after whom an ultimatum will be given or you finish or there will be a pacific fleet further or there will be something else or there may be some economic levers that are so hard tourists cannot have any business with any countries from the countries, which

means that financial institutions will also be disconnected from the rest of the world. now, in just a few days, i will pray that most of the loads of goods are transported here. i don’t know, but there is definitely a palette of these different scenarios that the pentagon and the white house have on the table in the event of an escalation or the use of nuclear weapons , that’s all well, let's finish with the topic of nato. in this part, we spent almost an hour on this topic. how would you outline the prospects in general, based on what we heard from our guests from you a-a regarding the speeding up of our integration a-a that is ah, we have fulfilled practically everything that was required of us, and this is not in one year, but the political will in general, in principle, in more, well, practically in the majority , yes, yes, a member of the member countries of the alliance is, uh, your, let's

say, an optimistic forecast for the final, well , first of all, it requires time in which we live in other qualitatively new solutions, this is firstly and secondly, the resilience that we show in our armed forces, they should really help us in overcoming sometimes those e risks of that skepticism that, in principle , sometimes can exist therefore we have to do really procedurally, we have started this process, and here is the question. i would not start predicting the time frame there. because sometimes some experts take it upon themselves to do it, but the two components must converge at one point. our really internal changes in the reform, because nato is also a level democracy, which we have already mentioned, is victory and external factors that we sometimes cannot influence, that is, that this consensus should still be there and that the position of the leading states of the united states, germany, france

, and great britain should be in our support. everything, that is, these two key points must come together in one place, then everything will be ukraine . thank you passively to everyone who joined this conversation . thank you for coming and thank you to bohdan for joining via skype. joined by skype and was also with us ihor popov political scientist thank you so much olga nimtsev nazar dugy thank you that the broadcast continues with us. we will not forget ukraine, we will see it, we will not retreat, we will not give up on the family, love grows in the family,

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