of germans, only 5,000 to 5,000 were dissidents , that is, such a number of people who were oppositionists in the ussr was difficult to notice, because they were dealt with very effectively by the system, it is cruel, and for some reason public memory is better. we remember we're sorry. hmm. well, there are some black pages , yes, the holodomor, in which several million people died. the ukrainian liberation movement of the forties is the story of the decline, but half a million ukrainians were killed, exiled and imprisoned, so that is, a-a. it seems as if the bloodier the story is the better we remember it unfortunately, but the history of the dissident movement is interesting to me because it is, hmm , this method of struggle fits our world,

modern discourse, and how a political discussion should take place in a civilized world, and the use of various views in one society is like that, and it seems to me that if ukraine aspires to europe, if we want to be european by values, this is the experience of dissidence, when you try to fight through words, through communication, this is what my generation should strive for, and i am very sorry what is mine the generation once again entered this bloody circle of struggle, in particular, probably because we as a society did not learn the lessons of the dissident movement well, well , this is a complicated story

. we can find out this history from primary sources and we use this right very little, unfortunately, you mentioned myroslava marinovych and we will still talk about social justice in relation to dissidents, but you are talking about the fact that this war is we have no vices and unappreciated values ​​so to say yes myroslav marinovych i spoke with him literally maybe a month ago eh about eh about what he feels about that they are not honored, they are actually not noticed, you know how we talked about the fact that there is such a wonderful

famous work in the regil called the fall of icarus where icarus falls and he is there somewhere small on the margin somewhere his legs are just sticking out of the water and at this time he is a farmer e-e farmer e-e plow the ground shepherds are shepherds are grazing er scott er there are fishermen raising fish and no one notices and that's how the politician ikar passes by and no one even notices him and here we didn't notice ours and kari and i asked miroslav marinovych about it and he said that pensions and rewards are not so important to him today, dissidents who are still alive, how important is it to him that their executioners be punished and the trouble is that these cats are not punished, that these investigating judges, prosecutors, and kagibists, they have finished decorating their

lives in cool or in the hospital so elite or on personal pensions, and we are not sorry for that either, but in fact it is also about values, and mr. myroslav also talked about this, and now i will ask you about pensions and the conditions in which people live who, let's say, have served 5 10 25 years old i know that there is a bill in the parliament that provides for some payments to dissidents , please tell me about it, just before our conversation i just sent a letter to mr. ruslan stefanchyk because finally after a year of talking about it in such intensive e-committees recommended to the verkhovna rada to adopt a bill on increasing pensions for

dissidents. well, there is no increase in pensions for independence fighters, that’s what it sounds like , er, independence fighters in the 20th century, er, actually, this is a very late initiative, because when i was actually looking for of living dissidents i realized with horror that most of them have already gone to another world and these people are not just these people, not just the state did not thank them and did not notice them in any way, there was not a single beautiful photo of them they practically did not have video recordings, and it is very unfortunate, but it is better late than never, and i hope that this initiative will somehow be brought to an end, especially at such a time. it would be very, very powerful and really, really, remarkable what exactly is this government, from which probably few people

expected such a step, in fact, it will now be implemented, and it is very much so. i like it irony of fate, in principle, i like it ah, how can god rule. it’s interesting, but the state of affairs is actually very deplorable. for example, i was shocked by the story vasyl ovsienko, what a dissident, what a human rights defender, what kind of human rights defender did you spend 12 years in prison, and in fact he collected the main material, the most material about ukrainian dissidents, we have an online virtual museum of the dissident movement on the website of the kharkiv human rights group, and most of the stories were collected by vasyl ovsienko using all absolutely technical means which he had access to. he was paid a small fee for this and in fact thanks to him i was able to do this project because he actually collected this information for all of us and he

i live on the minimum pension in the capital. well, i didn’t understand it at all. i think it’s a shame, actually, that we have such a state of affairs . to receive decent pensions because there are also victims of punitive psychiatry and their status. well, for example , mykhailo yakobovsky, a poet who became a victim of punitive psychiatry, he has not yet been rehabilitated. the examination in the 90s actually established that he was er for a sidewalk er in a mental hospital for political reasons and there are many such examples, especially now it is only about those who sat, so we are not talking about er those who were persecuted were given

work er and to be implemented like this therefore, this is the least that the state can do now, actually, at least for a few hundred people, to appoint a decent pension to them . actually, speaking of dissidents, there are perhaps a few hundred people left who fall under this category. fighters for independence in the 20th century i i know directly, uh, somewhere around 50 people, maybe not everyone agreed to speak with me on camera, uh, for various reasons, someone is very old and in poor health, someone simply refused because, hmm, he didn't feel the need to tell about it, but in the end , she is very worried about how the state will actually calculate of these people so as not to deprive anyone, and i am very worried that this law is not formulated in such a way that these old people do not again go to the

offices and do not beg and do not redraw this pension for a long and boring time, because it is also possible here. it's really not about the money, so er, we also collected about 100,000 uah for that matusevych through social networks, and when i told about the level of his pension , mykola matusevych is the co-founder of the helsinki group, and to be honest, he spent little of this amount because she is a person, she is used to a certain er budget to a certain way of life and money is not as pleasant to her as attention and gratitude. yes, but the level of pension is a question for society and not for dissidents, that is, i believe that it is our duty to er actually do these pensions are worthy of course late, but better late than never, and here it is worth understanding that this is only about those people who

sat in the camps, we do not take into account those people who were persecuted by the kgb, and there were 150,000 such people in the ussr - this is if you refer to the book of boris zakharov , a dissident researcher movement in ukraine, that is, people were not allowed to live in different ways by the opposition and imprisonment - this was only one of the ways to actually spoil a person's life, you are very good, then i said that money and pensions are not the main it's not a core value er and i'm with it i absolutely agree, but actually this value is evidence of another value, the extent to which society values ​​it in this way, as we have already said, the actions of eh and eh and sacrificed people who we call dissidents who served tens of years

in soviet prisons, and in this sense i remember very the demonstrative case of judge borys plakh, this is the judge of the volynsky regional court , who gave the death sentence in the 1980s in the last upa soldier ivan honcharuk, and this judge worked perfectly all his life his position in various positions and retired in 2006, and according to the project on the court of boris , the party received uah 70,000 per month, then this pension was transferred and, as of 2021, boryspolti received almost uah 203,000 per month. we are talking about justice, about justice, and about what actually these things are a

symbol of some kind of moral failures and moral blindness of society, and we are talking about we must talk about the amounts of 100%, and by the way, the story of boris plakhtiy is also story about that that unpunished evil grows because his daughter was also a story with daughter a who is also a judge who was noticed by journalists in corruption schemes when she was elected to the supreme council of justice already a year ago or how many years ago actually, if we close this gestalt to me, then this story will continue and continue from the other side, well, on the one hand, i am sorry that we are only talking about it now, and , again, it is also symptomatic that only now are people like myroslav's son or so a singer who has served 32 years is awarded the title

of hero of ukraine, and this is happening due to the huge efforts of civil society, and on the other hand, i understand how much we have progressed again thanks to the dissidents, compared to the same russia and belarus - and on the example of russia, there is also a very interesting ironic case - this is igor ogurtsov, a dissident who was a known monarchist, he sat in concentration camps, and he actually did not see ukraine as an independent state, only as part of the russian empire, and when the soviet union fell apart, this person was not simply not rehabilitated , er, russian justice in quotation marks a-and recognized that he was justly convicted. that is, in such a

country as russia, in general, there cannot be such discussions and conversations about pensions as we have now, for example, in the case of belarus, eh in general, i know that belarusian dissidents from the dissidents themselves, there were units, they were practically not in concentration camps. and actually, for me, the protests in belarus in the 20th year are what we had in the 60s and 70s, that is, they are now on a completely different stage a historical track that we have been doing for a long time passed thanks to dissidents, and even the fact that there were few of them in ukraine, it’s still important. i think they started very important processes, and even though we may not notice them as a society, these 11% of the unfortunate people who are now nostalgic for the soviet union did not come from nowhere, so that is after all, society is transforming and these processes were launched by the

dissidents. and the dissident larisa lohvytska is a very, very intelligent woman from kyiv. i am very sorry that she is very little present in the information space, and she quoted stus to me actually about this little one to be here yes, she compared the dissident movement with there to salt and dough and how this salt dissolves in the big one in this mass yes uh and i really liked this metaphor and no matter how unfortunate it is uh we are bad we know the history of the dissident movement, but this history uh is mediated by us now it affects me very much, it’s just a shame hmm why we don’t use it for me dissidents are alive, it’s as a separate, some kind of educational landing force, you know, which can be used to invite these people to universities and schools eh

invite them to western universities to explain this russian-ukrainian context, because these are people who know better than anyone how it happens, but their voice is not being used to the full. and yosipizisels e and i think that the state should involve them here but we have what we have you are very right i was motivated by your opinion that they are not known and they do not know by the way not only within the society in the west also on in the west, russian dissidents are more familiar and they read and know them, not ukrainian dissidents and their texts, let me tell you the depth of ignorance of the dissident movement of the dissidents, their history and

personalities . day and when the harassment of yosyp from gisems began, it was about a year ago, and i was struck that people do not understand those people who supported this company and this harassment on the networks. yes , these are young people of your age, my age, and the rest i.e. they don't understand and what kind of person is this? yes, they don't understand what kind of choice this person made. they don't understand what it was like to join the ukrainian helsinki group after two years. there were two waves of arrests. yes, when one group was arrested, then the second group was arrested, and as far as i remember, yosif from seld was in the third wave, and already the members of the ukrainian helsinki group were in the wave, which meant that

in fact 100% of them went to prison. yes , but the person made a moral choice and another very an interesting case for me is a very interesting case - it's because i literally a few days ago listened to an interview given by mykola veresen, ah, um, some that did not concern the dissidents, but he suddenly remembered that when the dissidents returned, that is, at the end of the 80s, none of the dissidents do not believe in the reforms that will lead to independence, that is, so that the dissidents do not believe that independence is possible at all, yes , then he also says that during the student hunger strike, during the student revolution, they were afraid of the slogan "glory of ukraine, glory to ukraine" and this is not so because i as participants starvation, my opticians. it was completely different , but why does this happen? it happens because

of unread texts. it happens because people make judgments like that without reading, without reading the conversations. in khruslin without reading the memoirs of heife, that is, without reading the wonderful books of marinovych. that is, these are unread texts . what do you think? hmm, there is a chance that the texts of ukrainian dissidents will be read , let's say in the future. this is a difficult question to things related to the topic of yosif izussels, what makes his experience unique and valuable in general - he is a person who began to collect the facts of the victims, taking the history of the victims of punitive psychiatry in the ussr. that is, it was

his specialization as a human rights defender, and i remember a very interesting, interesting story which sounds in the project of the face of independence that his wife sewed him a special jacket for the zone so that in this jacket he would pass a-a leaflets with written facts about the crimes of the communist system and i agree with you in the sense that we do not have e-e in society respect for each other, there is no such subordination with such people, this does not mean that we should heroize them there and not question everything they say, but definitely we should listen to them because they know that they sacrificed more than their freedom for the sake of us now had the opportunity to fight and we must respect this very much, there is no doubt at all. it seems to me that we still need to educate this europe in the sense of acceptance and respect for

older and more experienced people in relation to literature, i had one in the village, then i wrote down and collected dissident stories, and almost every dissident gave me his memories. and over the summer, i accumulated a whole library of dissident literature. when i started reading some books, i realized that this literature was all - still somewhat niche in nature. that is, this is literature for trained people, i will not generalize all the books there, for example, i highly recommend reading the memoirs of myroslav marinovych, because they are written in a very accessible human language, a-a, or mykhailo heifed from ukrainian silhouettes yes er, that is, if there are good books to familiarize yourself with this topic, but we still need to wrap this topic in a modern context in this a-a, maybe in

some informational fast food, i don’t know, maybe it doesn’t sound very good, but we need more accessible formats to choose to talk about it because er people are becoming more lazy with this amount and speed of information they need to be very short and succinct -m narrow audience though i want to be wrong , of course. i would like everyone to read it. but i understand that i can be disappointed . so, in this regard, i also want to ask your impression . so, when you said, obviously from this array , so did dozens in interviews and in of the conversations you had with the dissident and the residents, you formed your opinion and

i want to ask her your impressions about what the national idea that united these people in the 60s and 70s was transformed and became a human rights idea before that this is a very interesting transformation as they talk about it they say how exactly the patriotic community , which was united around national values, suddenly began to unite around freedom, freedom as such, freedom of the individual, freedom of the nation, freedom, freedom in a different meaning, it just seems to me that it was more directly related to the fact that the majority of ukrainian dissidents were united by the cultural discrimination of ukrainians

, the impossibility of learning ukrainian, consuming literature, films in general, the freedom of the nation, that's the way it is, the distortion of this cultural values ​​of ukraine so when in the mass culture all-ukrainian was made marginal in the project there are two dissidents from kharkiv and two and three from odesa, and these are stories about people who initially had nothing to do with national issues, they joined the dissident movement because of the ideas of democratization society, that is, in principle, the whole of the ussr, they were

only satisfied with a democratic one, that is, they wanted economic transformations . they became very interested in this national problem in the camps, when they came there to the concentration camps, they were called dissidents, second universities, and there they got to know the intelligentsia, the older generation of ukrainians, who explained to them the actual uvovs, who explained to them, er, er, all the subtleties and the importance of national culture and actually the dissidents from the south-eastern regions were ukrainianized there and they were already returning from imprisonment by ukrainian nationalists and it was a very, very interesting process er. and actually this is very

important in the context of the fact that, after all, dissident movements were everywhere and in some regions they had interesting transformations, for example, in the east and south, but by the way, about what you said about mykola september and his quote, i asked each dissident if he believed that ukraine would be independent, and each answer was very different someone someone believed, uh, believed, but in a very distant perspective . i am 100% convinced that ukraine will become a state and the same mustafa dzhemilev. he said that he could not even imagine

that the ussr would fall apart, and even myroslav marinovych and we. when we talked to him about it several times, he said that when he the first time he came to see hryhorenko in moscow was a human rights defender who to hand over documents er he looked at the kremlin and was er so demotivated because he saw the power of this soviet machine and felt his weakness against this totalitarianism and actually he said that then this was the idea of ​​ukrainian independence it was very illusory but it is clear that in why is it valuable that these people fought for the idea of ​​freedom, but they understood that they might not even see the fruits of this struggle, and this is very valuable .

myroslav marinovych told me about the war, too, that there was a part of the prisoners who were aware, i suspect that they were upa or people of the insurgent movement, the same mykola matusevych said that i knew there would be a war, well, he has such a thing i was convinced that he told me more than once. well, i am interested in how it worked for various oppositional people in the ussr. well, it seems to me that in summary. what they lived what thought and for what they actually made such sacrifices - it is to catch and understand the persistence that this war is an ongoing story that it is not sudden no no who would have thought and this is a story that we

had to finish and our generations had enough to finish a- and 100% yes, we are now standing on the shoulders of dissidents and i think it is very important to understand that their sacrifice is not in vain, thank you, thank you for these words . i am not the same for everyone i wish i wish a good evening of peace and most importantly victory see you no matter what ukrainians think about no matter what they talk about the first place still comes out war war and our victory seven days a

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