civilized on the side of ukraine and we hope for a victory and roz and a more careful investigation of russia after this victory it is my dream to be able to shoot a movie about real russia about real russian problems about real russian psychology about real russian history about real russian philosophy and finally understand them crazy people. is this such a criminal group? maybe they are sick or maybe they are criminals, but this can only be resolved after the victory of the ukrainian army over the russian federation with the help of to all the civilized world, all the best, ladies and gentlemen. this was mykola veresen, and first of all, bill browder. and mykola veresen was so simple, sometimes he asked something. all the best

, friends on the air. saturday political club program anzhelika sezonka and vitaly portnikov. good evening. so, in the first half of our broadcast we will talk, of course, about the russian-ukrainian war, in particular, we will touch on such topics as the battle for bakhmut why the russians do not stay in the direction and, on the contrary, threw all their forces there, we will also talk about why they are going to flee from kherson oblast well, jake sullivangrad of the usa was in kyiv yesterday and we will summarize his visit. his main statements are already with us. we

already have our first speaker, our first interlocutor. bakhmut , why is it that the russian occupiers now have such a desire to take this city and how do you think the events surrounding bakhmut will develop in the near future, the capture of bakhmut by thor is considered in the context of the battle for berlin, relatively speaking, because bakhmut is a city called the gate of donbass, it controls the entire surrounding region, on one side, horlivka and donetsk, on the other side, kostiantynivka, druzhkivka, sloviansk, and sviatohirsk, so for them, the capture of bakhmut is, uh, such a sacred idea because, on the one hand, they need a big victory , or after all, bakhmut is a big enough city , it is desirable for them to aim for it since 2014, and on the other hand , it is very important, because in the context of the

war, it has strategic importance, mr. terrace, we we know that for the past few months, professionals from wagner's private military company have been fighting there. however, in recent weeks, as reported , instead of professionals, there were already prisoners of the russian federation, who at first, in a certain way, tried to join wagner's pvk and have them fight in the east of ukraine, as you know, now these are really mostly so-called convicts no, not mostly, it must be said that they make up only a small part of those occupation units that carry out the same on bakhmut and soledar, a city which is located north of bakhmut, in general, their number is unknown, but obviously we can talk about at least several hundred former russian prisoners who were incorporated and recruited personally by yevgeny prigozhyn, he openly carried out similar acts of terror in russian

colonies and prisons starting from approx. july of this year and we can say that this contingent is not the most reliable professional , because their only desire to join the army, let's say, the motivation was primarily the opportunity to go free is conditional freedom, and on the other hand, the opportunity to take part in robberies and acts of violence on ukrainian territory , tell mr. taras, in principle, this is the very idea when russia annexes ukrainian territory without even having the opportunity to go to the administrative borders of these territories as in your opinion, this is just the idea of ​​this kind of political pressure, or are they sure that sooner or later they will come out, they want it, they are striving for it, but we see that their progress remains extremely poor since the month of february

russia tried desperately and putin set several deadlines for the final liberation of donetsk luhansk oblast from the ukrainian nazis, er, at first this deadline for luhansk oblast was set for june 1, and for donetsk oblast for july 1, i understand, it has already been moved to september, but as of today let me remind you that even the entire luhansk region is not under the full control of the occupiers, and in donetsk, well, a little less than half of everything that controls the armed forces of ukraine threw or maybe you can correct me three times, which was thrown by the russians precisely in the eastern direction, meaning bakhmut and avdiiv, it is in manpower or mostly also in equipment, but they say that the aviation has started to work more actively well, it can really confirm that the number of flights from

side of the occupiers increased, even this can be said visually, i was with my brothers, let’s say, a witness to the aviation ideal with the participation of the russian mig and the ukrainian soum, well, it ended in a draw, because the russian mig entered to our territory and we do not know what his tasks were, maybe the tasks of a bomb strike or a missile strike, but the ukrainian court expelled him from this territory, so we will assume that the ukrainian pilot won with a minimum victory on points. of the city and himself the assistant to the president of the united states for national security issues, well, kyiv. how do you assess this trip in principle, what does it show today? i can only congratulate the efforts of the united states states because the political presence and role of jake

sullivan and the administration of president joe biden is enormous without the efforts of the current american president and the entire american establishment without bipartisan support from the us congress of course western support would be much less that jack sullivan at the beginning of this war was enough restrained but has now changed his position in the direction of real and sincere support for ukraine only mean that enough has happened at the level of advisers to president biden serious evolution. we remember that even before the outbreak of a new stage of this war, jack sarion was one of those who, after all, spoke more restrained about politics and proposed negotiations with him. he was an ideologue. by the way, the meeting of biden in geneva, but in the end, we still see he

changed his position under the influence, including the successful actions of the armed forces of ukraine, in principle, it is possible that all these visits, all these efforts, now , to express support for ukraine, this is also a part of the pre-election period when the democrats may fear that the new already republican -controlled congress, at least the house of representatives, will be more cautious about the involvement of the united states in this war . wing of the republicans, we see that the bulk of the republican party remains to this day in the positions of support for ukraine eh and despite certain let's say so eh radical sentiments, of course, you understand that radicals are always palpable and more visible than politicians who adhere to a certain

conservative line, so ukraine does not have to react to any manifestation of american domestic politics. -what a careless word can now lead to the erosion of support for ukraine. therefore, it is necessary to leave the personal subjective attitude of the party, including towards the former president trump. especially since he has announced his intention to run for office again in 2024, and it is necessary to understand that now their ratings of the president and trump are approximately equal, and to rule out the return of such a er, again trump's renaissance . unfortunately, i see that such a mistake is being made again, as it was once upon a time when trump defeated the candidate from the

democrats hillary clinton and then it was very difficult to tear out ukrainian diplomacy. inspections of mega-sites in ukraine due to the provocation of the russian federation, they say we are preparing a dirty bomb here, as expected for us, it did not reveal any signs of nuclear preparation, mr. taras, what did the russian federation get as a result of this provocation, and what were they trying to achieve, maybe it is some kind of distraction or something. i think that it was a check, a check of the west of ukraine for their reaction , it was important for them to understand how much the west is ready to fight for ukraine only when harsh statements were made that the west does not believe in this a provocation that everyone perfectly understands that it is only me , a dirty game directed by russia, and moreover, a warning was sounded that if something is undermined, it will definitely be contracted as

russia's actions, and after that you see that we do not hear at all, they stopped hearing anything about this insinuation , that is, the russians and collapsed as quickly as they started, but on the other hand, why did the russians, in principle, do such a large-scale special operation, call all the ministers of defense, from the american to the chinese, and then say that must come to have a place to sit in a puddle like that. well, what is it for? any propaganda makes sense when it is motivated. well, if we were dealing with a completely logical regime of many things, including the invasion on february 24, it probably didn’t happen. vitaly, many things happen absolutely beyond logic, it is necessary to understand that we are dealing with a regime that does not live in the paradigm of logical steps , the attack on ukraine before february 24, which everyone knew about, which putin denied until the last, is absolutely analogous from the point of view of what he hoped

to destroy a huge european country with a huge army and a huge human resource. i mean, compared to other european countries, compared to russia, of course we are all small, all european states, but he actually calculated that the group of 175,000 would not just occupy but also control such a huge state, you know for comparison i always love the historical analogies of the time of the wehrmacht in order to control the reich commissariat in ukraine, it took more than a million groups that were there, it was not a combat unit, it was just units of the steering gendarmerie, the gestapo, and the secret police, as well as the sd, which controlled this territory. it's trivial to simply go to each village, the smallest city, a town, and you needed more than a million people. do not have specific police functions . do you understand that the army, the army cannot perform police duties,

it is simply not trained. that is, you know that it is the same thing. of the theater, can they sing with bass, well, of course they can, but the quality of this singing well, it will probably be terrible as well well, the army cannot perform the function of a police officer, you understand what this leads to . war criminals and they gave military orders, but look despite their well, it's just terror that they unleashed and with signs of genocide, let's admit that they still failed to control this territory, they were forced to kill not only the male population, but also the female population, including the elderly, which in principle did not demand absolutely from this situation, that is, even if you want to resort to terror. everything just went awry simply because the russians gave

the functions of the army to the 64th brigade from siberia, which was simply not trained for this. these are war criminals. but even these war crimes were committed, they uh, they committed them well, how should i say it more specifically, well, in one word, you understand , well, it was possible to do this work more conditionally well , again, i'm not quite the right word, well, qualitatively i know how to say it. well, there is no such word to even pick up. well, these are war crimes. i apologize. well, on the other hand, you yourself say that this is logic. when the reich occupied this territory , it treated it as an occupied russia. when they entered here, she thought that she was on duty. bryansk kursk region and people there will simply welcome their own russian army, and the ukrainian army will simply disappear because it is an artificial army of a fictional state, and the nazi government will simply flee

and that's the end of it, that's why they found themselves in such a situation. well, in principle, it's logical it's also logical because they didn't know until the end , well, look, it's not that they always lie. well, they lie when they say that they didn't know that they were going to fight against ukraine, they were informed about it, they were just taught, they said that if you er, you will be captured, tell them that you were the chief, it is true, but they did not really have a plan for this operation. they did not have, that is, their conditional political tricks . clapping loaves, you understand . there will be no resistance. well, there are some ukranian nazis there in a limited number, well, they will shoot at you a little bit, you understand. and you will go in nicely. well, this is not a lie. they really paid, for example, to capture such a huge city as odesa, and this these are captured documents captured from their staff officers for three days. imagine nazi

germany stormed the city of odessa for more than six months , seven hundred and a year. they couldn't take it here. how can it be ? well, this is a complete inadequacy, you understand, which was based on false assessments, first of all, their development. well, also on false analysts. probably , people’s moods can also be considered that way, and this is from the same source, billions of stolen money you know, when these so-called sociological polls were written on the knees, they simply lied, invented a completely non-existent story, told and believed it themselves, you know, there is such an expression called, i'm kidding myself, er, i'm kidding myself, i'm laughing, you understand, that is, they themselves believed in that fairy tale, that fairy tale what did they write to the pantheres, at the end of our conversation, let's recall the sick rhetoric recently

of kostyantyn zatulin, the first deputy chairman of the state duma committee on cis affairs, who said that ukraine is now preparing to attack belarus and poland will help her in this. poland is our friendly poland . please tell me that this rhetoric is purely for the domestic consumer. is it still the case? in this way, russia wants to show that it is preparing for another provocation. no, this is an internal story, it has nothing to do with poland. ukraine , i'm not going to europe, i'm not going to belarus again, i'm not going to belarus, they are these liars before, maybe they really calculated that some radical circles there or in hungary or in romania or in poland will pick it up and really their agents are all this they started to spread the thesis, but now we understand that even their agency is sitting like uh, we still understand there uh, under uh, the carpet, we are afraid to stick our

nose out why because as soon as someone starts broadcasting this narrative that we will now take some territories of ukraine and they can be imprisoned simply for that. well, look, the romanian defense minister was dismissed in disgrace from his position today for careless wording in relation to ukraine. today, the level of attention to such statements in europe. where is the responsibility of politics, in contrast to russia and unfortunately for ukraine, do you understand where politicians allow themselves to make irresponsible statements for which they should be dismissed and in principle should write a statement themselves ? that they trust such lies from politicians, but we still do. i hope that after this war we will be able to say that ukraine is a european state not only in terms of form but also in terms of judges, including and as regards political responsibility thank you thank you thank you taras berezovets

journalists political scientist officer of the first separate special forces brigade named after ivan bohun or on our broadcast and now we will move with you to the foreign policy block in our program and we have a diplomat minister of foreign affairs of ukraine 2014-2019 pavlo klimkin greetings mr. palyv greetings ms. congratulations greetings i can not see the studio because there is no light, the internet is down, but i hear the voice of the institute. well, we hear mr. klimkin. the realities that we many of our guests, unfortunately, we do not always see, well, this allows us to move on to the first question, the new package of assistance to ukraine from the united states will allow us to restore energy security in principle in the long term , in fact, it is not about one package, it is about two packages comprehensive e-aid is not

only about generators, it is about the fact that everything we need must be produced in real time and i really like the attitude of our allies, but we still know that today on tomorrow it won't happen, by the way, i'm a big fan of the fact that the west is now keying china and india into it and just said that it's not about war, it's not about geopolitics, they're putin's games, it's actually about people, humanitarian things and about human things, so let's quickly place orders at your factories, it concerns transformers, it concerns equipment, and in this way i would conduct this situation with western aid .

one of the key ones, i don’t know, at least mr. pavel, among the new well, in addition to the usual large amount of weapons that we need, everything from this package, we see that we will be provided with tanks, about 90 tanks , part of them from the czech republic, and for us, of course, it would be better to use the abrams, we noted this, but that 72 will also help us at the front, in particular in offensive actions. why do you think that right now the states have decided to provide us with such long-awaited tanks, well, it is absolutely obvious. well, of course, the package is good. we would like even better both emotionally and politically and with from a military point of view, we would like, as you said, american tanks and where they operate with a much larger radius, but this is a serious package, this is a package about armored personnel carriers and this is a package about theons that beat russian

defense equipment, and this is actually a combination of what we need for defense, but also what we need to attack for offensive operations, and i believe that this is a very clear, no longer a hint, a thick american signal that there are no attempts to enter into any talks with russia about either yes or yes, and maybe we will agree on something in the middle there 50 on 50 40 out of 60 it won't happen, and russia still has to admit that it lost. these are absolutely clear signals. the americans didn't do it just like that. they did it during jake sullivan's visit to this, her national security advisor, baidan, who

just so, of course, he does not travel, and i think that he discussed the military situation and the further military strategy and the situation with the elections. 8 when there is a usual possibility, something will happen to the public in the conference in the senate. well, of course, also the preparation for the g20 before it is clear that the agenda was not that saturated . and such cereals are saturated, as sometimes speaking in english, slangs in direct translation. and tell me , mr. pavlo, i want to talk about the direction of foreign policy - this is what is happening now with the people's republic of china. we have seen the fact is that china ideologically supports russia all these eight months precisely from the point of view of this great war, all the time it says that the west is exactly to blame for this war, that it was russia that wanted some kind of security, but during a visit to the people's republic of china

the federal chancellor was fashol - this is xizenpin, who clearly said that he considers a nuclear conflict in eurasia unacceptable. today, i specifically looked at the text in the south china morning post newspaper - this is a hong kong newspaper, which they know is controlled by the chinese administration. it is such a window to the world, a signal window, you can say and they clearly say that it is the journalists of this newspaper that this is a clear signal to putin that there can be no use of nuclear weapons from ukraine, i.e. these journalists even go further than all of denpin himself is this a change in policy, is china really afraid , maybe it is the use of nuclear weapons by russia, this and the first and the second. as far as i know, at the meetings of the traveler and uh, at the meetings with the german business , the chinese leaders spoke even more directly, that is, they

usually chose their words, because in the chinese tradition, words are always chosen but they spoke clearly enough and this is connected with china's fundamental interest in preventing nuclear proliferation. well, look at all the countries around china. japan says, well, there in taiwan, of course, vietnam he david, where else do they have the intellectual potential to make nuclear weapons, of course there is the financial potential, well, 100% will find the technological ones, they will also find it, and this may mean that there will be not one, not two, but a whole group of nuclear countries around china. this fundamentally changes the entire situation, and not only security in general, all the plans of china, and secondly , russia is still important for china, it is a junior partner, it is precisely the most becoming a vassal of putin, it depends to a great extent, but they understand very well that

putin is gradually coming to an end, because his the sense of charisma that existed in the non-western world is also coming to an end, and it is necessary to understand how to tie this russia to itself and as a political period of some possible rebooting of russia's grievances, this is actually a difficult issue for china and the last. now, today we are not only about russia, we we are talking about iran, when you probably heard that a couple of days ago, we said that we will release you too, and then he so carefully corrected himself badly and jokingly, if the iranians release themselves from belarus, we have, that is, this war or whatever you want to call it and it means the desire to reset all of this russia and china has interests not only in russia, in china there are indeed long-term interests in the region and in belarus and china perfectly understand this and are facing a

fundamental reset, including their own interests in particular, around the gulf, and the majority of oil and the chinese economy are behind the walls, and so far, without this oil, china cannot develop at all, therefore, for china, in addition to understanding it in general, it is not a matter of politics, it is a question of its key strategic if you want critical national interests, as a understands it, say that right now the united states is talking so harshly with north korea in the morning, this means that this is how the baiting president is preparing for the meeting on january 20 and shows that, in principle, the united states is ready for a tough policy on in relation to those regimes that will cross the red line, this is exactly this and this is a signal to me. and the threat of two by the head of the

pentagon to north korea that if they use nuclear weapons, it will mean the end of the regime, well, change north korea to russia, too. in fact, you will understand everything. biden’s meeting will be key and it will be determined whether or not it will be enough for a few years. everyone perfectly understands that he seems to have a strong position. the key magical organs of the party have many of their supporters but ilists, but biden seems to be as he thinks and many chinese, i know this from experts somewhat weakened after the results of the elections in 8 but i think that the americans will not allow to play it out and it will be a serious strategic conversation. i am absolutely certain that they do not know how to talk to the chinese, mr. pavla, and yet, for

china, the definite limit of russia's war against ukraine is only nuclear weapons or military actions themselves, which lead to problems for the global world economy on why did mr. scholz insist on this? well, of course, this is a fundamental problem. look at the price of energy. look at the prices for pedaling and let 's actually look at chinese history . in the case of the chinese, fedorazat but they did not start with the struggle for freedom like our maidan, they started with the fact that there was no food or food was too expensive, and china understands its history very well, it perfectly understands that the further rise in labor and energy prices is a matter of course, but in china is now buying less now, the growth rate is lower there, you have something in interest, they began to buy such a planovaraga by almost 20%, which, by the way, is

a big plus for europe when putin turned off the faucet and now he was left with absolutely nothing. the situation is canonical and safe, but nevertheless , in the future, any war is not profitable for the chinese, they understand very well that in reality, from the point of view, from the point of view of that mentality, we look like this, you know , so cool, small, very alone he is also confident that vietnam will be forced to freedom. they have a history of alliance relations and they very often compare us in this sense, and they perfectly understand that vietnam did not succeed in any way. understood that from ukraine and such a thing will not happen. they know how to read history and read geopolitics, as you, in principle, consider what is happening now