but i still love. that it will attack kyiv, that it will attack ukraine in general, we felt russian peace when the landing convoys entered our eyes, it hurts that the vast majority are people who did not die from explosions, but who were deliberately shot, every day a shot is someone's stock market life documentary film street of death today at 21:30 in marathon the only news countries such as germany, britain and others bear their share of responsibility for the tragedy that took place in ukraine in the early 1930s practically all the governments of european states and through intelligence and through the reporting of her diplomats , mrs.

hrynevych knew very well what was happening in ukraine. i welcome you to the first channel of public broadcasting. we are meeting against the background of the fact that very recently the verkhovna rada of ukraine adopted an appeal to the parliaments of other countries with a request to recognize the holodomor of 32-33 years as genocide please explain why this recognition is so important for the ukrainian state yes it is incredibly important for ukraine for ourselves we decided we know the holodomor genocide of the ukrainian people is a law but the recognition at the world level of the holodomor as genocide is also the recognition of the subjectivity of ukraine and there is another very important moment, we aspire to become part of europe and if you analyze the politics of memory, you will see and understand what, for example, the holocaust is already became a part of

european identity a long time ago and we in ukraine are doing everything to ensure that the memory of the victims of the holocaust is preserved in ukraine, but we also strive for the problem of the holodomor, so that the holodomor also becomes an integral part of the european identity and therefore, in this context, these are rather political moments, of course, but they are extremely important now , how many states are we talking about, which have you already reached 20%. you know, this indicates that we have prospects, given that we are talking about more than 200 crimean prospects, very, very significant, and the decision is usually made politically. it can be seen that during the meeting with the heads of state, the president of ukraine, volodymyr zelenskyi recently, he has been emphasizing the fact that it is necessary to recognize the holodomor as a genocide you could hear at the meeting of the president with the

german president steinmeier and recently there was a meeting with the british prime minister what prevents such countries as germany or britain from recognizing the holodomor as genocide? it is ignorance of this history. it is some russian influence. what do you know about this? well, first of all, it should be said that countries such as germany, great britain and others bear their share of responsibility for the tragedy that took place in ukraine in the early 1930s. the position they took then in the books. the fact is that against the background of such a large-scale famine, against the background of the fact that, in the center of europe, millions of people were killed by hunger, against the background of the fact that practically all the governments of european states, both through intelligence and through the reporting of their diplomats, are perfectly knew what was happening in ukraine, nevertheless, the

export of grain continued and scientists have calculations that indicate that actually the export of bread that was carried out during this period to britain and to the same germany and so on, well, in fact, it was grain which, if it had not been exported, could have saved people's lives a priori, so there is no direct responsibility here. i'm not talking about the fact that, despite such a terrible crime, european countries began to recognize the soviet union's automatic recognition, even america in the 34th year recognized it not because of of this catastrophe, despite the protests, despite the fact that ukrainian political organizations spoke out and said that this crime should be talked about , help should be provided, we know that there in austria, the cardinal initiator spoke, and metropolitan sheptytskyi made statements like this. despite this the preference was given, you see, to economic

considerations, that is, the expediency is economic, and therefore bravo to our president, who constantly emphasizes the need to recognize the holodomor as genocide, because these events should also remind our european partners that they owe ukraine a debt. conducted in order to make it clearer to our viewers, that is, the civilized world then in the 1930s behaved exactly opposite to what we observe now, that is, knowing about the crime of the soviet regime, it was not that economic ties were severed, on the contrary, you could say they flourished.

liquest to those people who question it, they say yes, this is a huge tragedy. but is it genocide? we refer to the 1948 convention and it is possible to analyze this convention and according to the provisions of this convention absolutely for me as a historian as a scientist, it is absolutely obvious that the holodomor was a genocide of the ukrainian people, you understand, i would say so. well, first of all, discussions are conducted around what was the scope of the genocide, and against whom this genocide was organized, this is the first question, and here quite often they mistakenly say that it is impossible, strictly speaking, to compare, let's say , the holodomor and the holocaust to a certain extent, because the holocaust was a genocide committed on the basis of ethnicity , that is, the object was the jews, they were killed only

because they were jews. but if we take the holodomor then here the object of genocide is not a part of an ethnic group, but a part of a national group, you understand, that is, this crime was directed against all citizens of ukraine regardless of nationality, but taking into account the fact that the cultural core of this national group was, of course, ethnic ukrainians, well, actually, they are creative and state-building in this part of the assessment of the group. actually , the main such attack is directed against ethnic ukrainians, but not only this. it is very important to understand this difference, that is, the object of genocide here is part of the national group a in situations with the holocaust - this is purely on a technical basis, it is the first and the second - quite often they talk about what, what could be the motivation of stalin, what kind

of motivation sometimes you even know is wrong, those who do not know the documents in the gpu well enough and do not know about the psycho-mental state the societies of that time talk about the fact that there is no logic here, well, they killed several million people, and these were soldiers, they could take rifles during the second world war to defend the homeland, well, this is a completely distorted idea of ​​​​what happened in ukraine at that time. so the motivation was obvious, it was connected with the fact that ukraine was occupied, there was no soviet power in ukraine, and ukrainians were not on the territory of ukraine in the 20th year , the occupying army was introduced, i saw the materials of the national census of the red army, they can accurately give statistics on one million 200 soldiers who were here this and on the military front in two districts, 995,000 of them were mobilized from the inner provinces of the russian federation and they were agitated not

so much by zakomenism, because those red army men from the russian hinterland were absolutely communists they were indifferent and hostile to the communists in the same way as the ukrainians, but the imperialist slogans were relevant then, i.e. to a question to a red army officer comrade, what did you come to ukraine with, well, these are the official documents . they don’t give us all their bread, or the documents are the documents of the red army. when they broke into our peasant houses, they said that we were fighting you. now, give us everything we need. so this territory was conquered. occupied, she was not loyal to the soviet government, and when this assault began, when this stalinist revolution began from above in the 30th year , ukraine gave almost a million people who, having no

freedom of speech, no opposition press, even a sufficient number of weapons, and they began to cry out and almost million people went against this government and liquidated the soviet government in the right bank ukraine, and the military theorist testified that it is very important actually got the task from the general staff to answer the question in in case of war, which territories can give the situation to the loyal rear, and this military theorist gave a forecast for two regions, the north caucasus and ukraine, and in 1941 , this is what happened when the war began, 92% of the population remained in the occupied territories. therefore, the motivation is that geopolitically, the territory is extremely important, useful minerals and opportunities to exploit economic resources, that is, energy carriers, this grain, well, there is a lot to

talk about, this is motivation. well, not loyalty, but intentions. they are also very easy can be seen through the fact that we scientists have a well- documented situation of famine in 28-29 , when these mechanisms of the famine were being worked out. well, these documents absolutely clearly indicate that this government absolutely deliberately created a situation of famine, russia meanwhile, he insists that the famine of 1932 and 1933 was, i quote, the common grief of all soviet peoples. it seems to me that similar wording is also used in the infamous propaganda articles of the president of russia, vladimir putin, on the unity of ukraine and eh russian people, why is it for russian propaganda? i think it can be said directly that it is so important to insist on exactly such a version here

that propaganda can be distributed. and actually, this mission is quite actively used in russian historiography . quite an interesting episode about the fact that during the time of yanukovych, when the minister of education was tabachnyk, in russia suddenly false ideas were formed that if the minister said the scientific community would take from the pods and will be done, that is, we will write the history of the famine together, precisely from this myth, it was developed in the silence of the kremlin offices at the end of the 80s. that is, it comes from there , because until that time the soviet government denied the fact of the existence of a famine, and here came this professor kondrashin and brought with him temnik and distributed this temnik to our scientists, and there in that instruction, er, advice and recommendations were given

to select documents from you, and it was written that select documents in such a way that the ukrainian specifics are not visible, select documents as follows in order not to emphasize the ukrainian situation, well, the ukrainians refused to cooperate, they leaked these documents, they are the historical truth, you can look at this instruction. and actually, the russians issued their own four-ton eye, there seems to be a history of the holodomor 29-33 of the common grief of the soviet peoples, this i am simply demonstrating as in a scientific plan through falsification because when science selects documents for a predetermined conclusion - this is falsification yes, i'm just giving you a concrete example here, now what concerns why russia actually does not perceive the holodomor as a genocide of the ukrainian people, this is also understandable. because this story is actually the tragedy of the holodomor, this genocide that was organized here, the holodomor

was actually a part of the genocide, only a part, and very often , those who say that this is a genocide are mistaken. 32-33 this must be read rafaila lemkivna what is the father of the term genocide who stressed and repeatedly said that genocide is me, it is a process, it is not an event, it is a process, so in fact this soviet genocide in ukraine continued practically all the decade of the holodomor is the most expressive part of this genocide, well, for us, i'm sorry, i'm clarifying your opinion, when we talk about the genocide of the ukrainian people in the soviet union, what time frame does it cover? well, in my opinion, the entire period of ukraine's stay in the soviet union is practically there was a genocide, but certain periods, let's say, if we are talking about the era of the holodomor, they clearly showed that the government can use

food as a weapon, well, about four million human victims. actually, this is a component of genocide and consciousness of ukrainians and there is a clear conviction that if the national state of ukraine, the ukrainian people's republic, which was created in the same way as many other european states were created, what is the 20th century? this is the century of the collapse of the empire, the uprising of national states, ukraine created its own national state. if ukrainians had a national state, of course this crime and hunger would not have happened, and because of that the conclusion is that ukraine has no place in the soviet union if you look ugp documents from the late 20s and 30s. this is exactly what our ancestors thought, i.e. actually, this period was extraordinary. such serious negative political activity and the difference between what it was like in

ukraine and in other regions was clear. and then return petliura to us long live the ukrainian people's republic it is recorded in the documents that people chanting ukraine is not dead yet go to machine guns , a bunch of e-e organizations appear again and again that set themselves the goal of ukraine's exit from the ussr and so on, that's why this topic and now what are you going to see in the concert of this denazification? there , attention is paid to the theme of the holodomor. by the way, regarding the current perception of this topic by the current russian regime, it seems to me that what we saw in mariupol after the occupation was destroyed, as it was called, the russian the authorities dismantled, well, in fact, they destroyed such a memorial to the victims of the holodomor, they didn't just destroy it there. i watched this story several times and

i was not so impressed by the occupiers who dismantled the monuments that we after the liberation of mariupol we will definitely restore this monument and i was impressed by the collaborators of the trio who spoke there and one under the guise of scientists, on the contrary, there are absolutely fantastic statistics that absolutely do not correspond to the data, that is, i compared the situation in ukraine and so on, that is, this is our problem that we are talking about should think and say in general, where did these collaborators come from? you understand, well, in any case, if they don’t press er-e to come to the territory of the russian federation, they will end up on the dock and there. actually, the place is an interesting moment is that in fact now we are observing not only this, we are also observing how russia uses famine, or rather the prospect of famine, as a tool in solving its geopolitical issues,

i mean the theft of ukrainian grain in occupied cities, as well as blocking the export of ukrainian grain from ukrainian ports in order to there was an opportunity to deliver them, for example, to ukraine, africa. are you surprised by such a turn of events in the modern russian-ukrainian war ? as weapons are a component of modern war, and you have drawn attention to only one very important aspect, but there are also such internal aspects, if you look at this situation, you can see that if we are talking about ukraine itself, it is the use of food as a weapon, this is the destruction of our economic powers. you saw that in the beginning at the beginning of this war, you saw that there were looting and rocket attacks on food warehouses, this is all in order to

actually destroy the food market in ukraine , to destroy the markets so that the chest does not have the opportunity to get food, to create a situation of hunger, you know in bucha. we have seen many reports, we know, but the fact that an 85-year-old dissident artist died there from exhaustion of hunger, whom our doctors simply could not save later, that is, this is the first , second, and extremely important for you the moment of using humanitarian aid is this too. please note that when i captured the east of ukraine, you saw these constant humanitarian shipments, this is the same as what is being done now. that is, it is thrown food to hype up one's own condition. stalin did this at the beginning of the 33rd year when people here were already dying of hunger by the millions. he suddenly gives some kind of help there, another matter is that it is the same thing that was taken from ukraine, but

only those who went to the collective farm were supposed to get it, you understand, and this is an external aspect, it is also extremely important that this is also a blow , first of all, to our economy, because if you take , let's say, the 19-20th year before the pandemic, ukraine took the second place in the world after america in terms of grain exports. this is our export structure. at that time, the food supply was more than 40 %. so when it goes the destruction of this country is actually the destruction of our state and our economy. despite this, it is also an attempt to destabilize the situation in those countries that need help, and all this is done with the aim of forcing the western world to choose again the situation of economic expediency over morally. you see how this is repeated in history

, that is, now the world is once again faced with the situation it faced in the 30s, only then there was no independent state of ukraine, only then our opportunities were, er, completely different, we did not have of our armed forces of ukraine, we now have all of this, and that is why i think that these speculations will have no result regarding the modern culture of memory of the famines, not only about 32-33 years, we are talking about three famines, according to my subjective impressions, every year further more ukrainian families are somehow rethinking and opening up their experiences, you can even say that these pages in the history of their families are on the contrary, because it was, for example , in soviet times when they did not talk about it at all or in the first years after the restoration of ukraine's independence, when is this also? well, you can say that the topic has not been fully discussed, but do you see

that at the state level, everything is being done that is necessary to make this crime and this tragedy known to as many people as possible, not only in ukraine, but also abroad, in my opinion. we have serious prospects here, the politics of memory must change. i will explain why. the fact is that for decades in the soviet union the phenomenon of hunger was generally denied . there was no hunger in families. people could talk to each other. to say this, but very often parents were afraid to even tell their children because it was an article on anti-seler propaganda, although they said it after the demarcation of the stalin cult in the 60s, i saw documents that when closed party meetings were held, they were demanded here in ukraine. people, tell me something else too about the famine well, you should talk about stalin's crimes, tell about the famine well, but the government did not go for it but in the free world, the diaspora uh,

and quite often they say that it was only the galicians it's not true, well, a huge number moved after the second world war, people who themselves survived the famine, so they could speak in the free world. but they opposed this large-scale soviet propaganda, which said that there was no famine here. from the rostrum of the united nations, he spoke about the fact that there was no water . under these conditions, the entire culture of memory was formed around the fact that there was a famine , it was terrible, that's why all our memorial events are black ribbons and an emphasis on the murder procedure, but now we modern ukrainians, who know much more about this topic, we must understand that

our official politics of memory should also work . that's how this topic should make us stronger. we should talk about resistance. we should talk about mercy. government happens for any ukrainian government, it is inconvenient, i will explain to you because it is very comfortable to go to the memorial once a year already in the holodomor, put flowers, put a candle, bow your head and leave, but this topic is also the topic of civil society's struggle for its civil rights against of poverty, for economic reforms, for the right of people to participate in the management of the state, you understand, and that's why it seems to me that this culture of memory must be formed from below and it must be accepted by our government to a certain extent, that's how it is

yes, but there are still prospects here, i think there are ongoing discussions about how many people died as a result of the famine of 32-33 years, but literally now, billboards with the inscription 10 and a half million dead have appeared again in kyiv and not only in kyiv, this figure arose last year and i know that it caused very fierce discussions in the academic environment, we can talk about that figure when we talk about the victims of the famine of 32-33 years. a discussion in an academic environment is when there are some publications of a point of view, and here the discussion here was an attempt to impose a certain figure on society solely for political reasons , for which there was no academic discussion and for which there was

no academic work, therefore there was no discussion here, it was simply scientific environment made a statement that this number is incorrect well, we are talking about a number just for the understanding of our viewers, which is more than twice as much as the number that historians are used to using. so when you read articles historians about the holodomor usually talk about almost 4 million people who died from the holodomor in 32-33 years and 600,000 people who were not born, so that is, approximately 4.5 million victims of the holodomor genocide. i just want to draw attention to the fact that quite often these figures people simply do not realize that this is a human life, this is simply a colossal number, this is a huge loss for ukraine, these are reasonable numbers. well, if you are demographers, here too, uh, you ask an interesting, correct question. do you understand the holodomor ?

which cannot take place outside the space of interdisciplinarity. this is all very clear. if we want to understand the psychological consequences of the holodomor, we will go to psychologists. that's right. if we want to recreate a concrete historical canon, we will go to historians. if we want to understand what the losses were, this is the parish of demographic statistics. you understand . this is demographic statistics. therefore , 3.9 million have been proven to date. 3.9 are direct losses and 600,000 are indirect losses. the biggest losses are in kyiv and kharkiv regions, there are almost 2 million. i want to tell you. the number of victims does not affect the definition of genocide hunger, that's actually what i wanted to clarify in the end, it matters, for example, for those countries from which we demand or ask to define

. 000 stars in the sky it seems like an infinite number of these stars and that's almost 4 million people it's just to imagine that we lost 4 million but what is very important for us when talking about these losses we must always remember that and our society is our society it was almost 30 million, i.e. the majority of people survived and these people also have to talk about it these days, these people survived not thanks to soviet power, but thanks to the fact that ukrainians fought for their lives , there were absolutely phenomenal survival strategies, there were cases of ethnic interaction when jews who received some kind of support from the agro-juyente fed ukrainians. and then ukrainians saved jews from death during the war in the conditions of the holocaust.

in my opinion, it is important for us, and those questions that concern the moments related to the attempt of politicians to outline their vision, their vision is worth it. i think it will disappear into oblivion. we must understand that the holodomor is not only losses, this survival strategy of ukrainians survived because of the fact that they fought for their lives and they preserved their identity, this is very important to understand ms. hrynevych thank you for this conversation, thank you for the invitation, this is the language of our ancestors, the language of shevchenko , the language of khvylovy, this is the language of the designer, korolyov , the language of the artist malevich, the winter of a thousand novels and of scientific works, the language of the theater, the language of sport is the strongest language in the world, it was banned dozens of

times, but it survived, it survived in poems, it survived in folk songs, it survived in the words of parents and words of love, this language sounded on three maidans , this language sounds in the trenches so that this language could sound in the coffee shop under this condition heroes speak in this language glory to heroes is the language of peace but this language is a weapon is the language of free and unbreakable question is the language of victory this is our native language you can believe in victory pray for victory donate for victory and you can invest in victory and even receive a profit from it, buy government military bonds. it’s like a deposit, only not in a bank, but in the state and the army, you just take action and choose