the guest of our broadcast is the deputy head of the united presidential office of belarus, the representative of the belarusian opposition on foreign affairs, valery kovalevskyi. i congratulate you, mr. valery . good day. you have arrived in lviv to participate in the first such belarusian-ukrainian phobia in recent months, during the months of the war between russia and russia. and ukraine, which unfortunately also takes place from the territory of belarus, there were no such meetings. and i would say that there were even no real contacts at the level of the ukrainian government society of the belarusian opposition to this war, what is your impression of such a first contact, well, first of all, i believe that the fact that heteform fought back and jonah fought back against the joint initiative of belarusian and ukrainian experts is important to us, that this is a minute expert forum first of all. it was not supported by any but political

considerations, what are the tasks of the film that are important for us at today's stage, we understand each other better, and the grandfather of how to understand the problems that we encountered during the stage of how we open up how we we see each other, and goethe will have a way to prevent further cucumbers from burning belorussii. well, this is war, but also think about how the relations between our states should look like through conchitsya gotovami or and we understand that eh byelorussians and ukrainians are like narobivskies on each other, but our countries have always hated each other out of mistrust, with a certain suspicion, and maksym was confused by the fact that moscow remained such a center of attraction, and uh, there in the soviets they were thinking about how to get out of none resources are like bifits. and for ukraine, they are certainly less relevant than in the past hour. but none the less we understand that our people could be

much closer than that. and foreign policy and defense, but also gangly investments and the social sphere, and this is all you are for pranks, our development is very weak, when in gogole, eh, what if there is an event, eh, our people are close to us or our state, i can say with ours closer if we talk about the biggest, i would say such a concern to ukrainians, whether there will be another war from the territory of belarus and whether the belarusian army will take part in this war, possibly in the offensive on the northern regions of our country . they categorically did not want the fact that the belarusian troops were involved in this war, the fact that the infrastructure of the belarusian territory is used for illegal aggression, the war of russia with the belarusian territory

against ukraine, and this is no longer allowed. crime and that's what lukashenka is bound to do , but hey, the situation may deteriorate even more when the belarusian troops enter the territory of ukraine, and that's why we actively oppose it, including informational work , but at the same time when we evaluate the worthiness of geta, we must understand that the belarusian community categorically superveta 86% of the belarusian population, as if the belarusians were denigrated in this war, and we also understand that the belarusian armed forces a part of society appears and they also share the same views on goethe and a separate one is worth this time a people close to belarusians a-a and this is a war for foreign interests a-a russian supremacy of ukraine a-a imperial actual interests this is me too it also means that it is necessary to wage

a war against a very formidable army, which to date has shown its fictitiousness, its partisanship, its courage, and the belarusians had absolutely no experience in military conflicts, let alone in military operations hell of a trading moment when we found out our independence, and here, of course, absolutely unequal forces are released on the battlefield, i think that the brovarsky military understands this as well. months, the process shows absolutely clearly but at the same time, we do not see any real political resistance to this war , we can say that lukashenko in his struggle with the belarusian protest movements, which began in 2020 , finally won, and i do not think that this so because we, according to the first, we see the mood of the belarusians in belorussia itself for them lukashenko was dragged out to be a non -accepting figure, not an acceptable leader, i

understand that the elections were falsified and illegally held such an indirect sign that lukashenko also understands the goethe process in the society of this to pass the repressions to date, and at least repeat thousands of people appear in the political lower volyans, who are officially recognized much more times most of those people who were imprisoned for politics are behind bars, but i did not want to be recognized as political prisoners, because their attitude in prisons today is very, very harsh, and that's why lukashenko understands that, for the society, this party is not inverted and i don’t dwell for 100 hours on how to clean the democratic pyramids at home, and that’s why we see goethe’s repressions, but what did it do in vynnyky, and that lukashenko, believe me, weakened, was a holiday of dialogue with the belarusian community, that’s what you inadequacy, the lack of legitimacy made him

very weak, russia is a touchstone, and russia here saw its space for trade, in which i filled the bubble with myself and achieved those concessions on the part of lukashenko, against which he resisted for a long time, and i am talking about military and presence on the territory of belarus. i am talking about the integration programs, which are accepted at the same time as the speech about the creation of a union state of belarus with russia. less ability to resist such pressure if we talk about how belarusian society today generally perceives reality, we know what is i would say such an onslaught of propaganda both in russian and belarusian official propaganda and regarding this war and regarding the situation that is today

in ukraine and the situation of relations between belarus and the west. how does it happen that on the one hand there is propaganda and on the other hand there is a rejection of war? maybe it's just fear of war. that belarusians and ukrainians are much closer than russians and ukrainians. i mean not only our peoples, but also, well, just the physical panery of our countries , for belarusians, ukraine is a natural neighbor with whom we interact with others with some kind of reputation, many belarusians travel to pochynok e- to ukraine in the summer for russia. this is one of the many countries that appears with its neighbor in the autumn. well, in principle, russians are not so much looking for plantains on new year's eve with other countries. they were beaten in ukraine with everyone but they are being led away the ukrainian language is understood under these conditions, but for adult ukrainians - this is not a problem. we have a 75-80% overflow of vocabulary, for example. we can understand each

other calmly, we have a souk story a-and that's why a-and after all, for the belarusians , this war is much, much, much closer, this is the sense that we hear it, the next one, we also wish for the creation of this war and otpusti na pogrozaet and to ourselves and therefore for belarusians mm of this on etoben mikkevskie news and in the separation from russia where 75% of the population is continuous to patrol i'm preparing a people's war, you're going to take the already assigned damage to the fact that it's affected, that it's really not expensive, and all the angels are used to the story of the super guests, the soldier for them, the standard for us, no, well, that's it for me. to be honest, to a certain extent, it's like that the thesis that refutes that everything is solved by propaganda, certainly not everything is not everything revolves around propaganda, of course, but here i returned to one point, that when lukashenko

started the ready war, the yumz started a war against the state and the people, which for him were not acceptable as the model of ukraine as a democratic free european state - this is kyiv news both for lukashenko and for putin, and this is the example that will irritate everyone because he will remind belarusians in belarus that it is possible to live in a different way , it is possible to live in a football country. management of the state and therefore the decisions started somewhere and the war. i am sure that lukashenko at least did not resist it. the territory, infrastructure of belarus for the attack of ukraine without goethe, the war might not be in the coals, because we are wound up against kiev in populated areas, the most important thing is the first strike, and it could only be done from the territory of belarus, so when, uh, when we

talk about how goethe began the war should be emphasized everywhere lukashenka's rejection of the beginning and the end of this war to this day , therefore, when we talk about how we can solve this problem, how we can end military studies, then we need to think about how to exclude from belarus from этой войны well, we can say that in 2020, when putin wanted to help lukashenko so much in lukashenko's struggle with the belarusian people, that he already thought that lukashenko would be more dependent on him, it would be possible to convince him of the need to start . i think that's how putin saw the ghetto as a space for himself eh, in a certain sense, it is also created, we publish the fact that russia has managed to dig up now the dispersal of the protest, where it was visible that such a confrontation was being created, a very, very sharp confrontation between the public and by the state regime at that time and russia only stopped pouring oil into it. tell me,

in principle, what is happening today with the belarusian protest movement. how do you feel about the state of belarusian society, what is happening to those people who did not agree with the fact that lukashenko continues to rule belarus? let's just say that the hete crisis in the metropolitan economy is over. and of course, i will now visually notice the signs of protest on the territory of belarus. it was not noticed, as if everything had stopped and ended, and she had calmed down, but we knew in detail that this protest movement is continuing, people, er, people understand that the repression is now happening in belarus, and they will not try to carry out their activities , er, as a mini note, but at the same time effectively and here our situation has become more complicated due to the fact that within the political crisis, it was complicated by the ongoing war against ukraine, because the people who are now confirming their repressions, for

political reasons, are becoming objects and also because of their anti-war position, the anti-war nuisance is neutrality, not what minutes, because i don't patrol ukraine, yevgen sensei is free, interestingly, a situation has arisen that the concept of neutrality, which was enshrined in the belarusian constitution, doesn't work, and it's not like that for everything in fact, belarus, because the regime supported russia, in fact, but the belarusian people supported ukraine, and they supported me in a significant way. a district that informs everyone about what is happening in the territory of belarus, and the initiative is more active, an example of 30,000 people who provide information to the authors of the gtg telegram channel, they tell about what is happening to them, and this is done organically, this is what people do the fact that they don't want to help ukraine or ukraine because i don't understand that the threat to ukraine 's foundation of statehood is a thousand and one,

just tell us what's happening with the belarusian position we remember that in 2020 svitlana tokhanovsky was looked upon as the chosen one of the president of the republic of belarus, many western capitals did not meet with her at the highest level. how did the situation change after the start of the war? if it changed, and after the start of the war, this was the first statement of zelenskyi 's tradition on february 24. aggression is not. she also declared that she will take on the refusal to defend the independence of our sovereignty, we understand even then it was clear that this is a threat or us as well . of our zahodnikov eh friends eh and partners eh what vermi important thing about the workshop of this work is visible in the important consolidation of the democratic movement that is why this led to the creation of the cabinet of the lunched

transition cabinet of belarus uzhnu no etogo goda a-a in the second year after e- after the elections, it is called an adequate, adequate reaction to the change in the situation, but now we have another task in front of us. there were meetings between the president of ukraine, volodymyr zelenskyi, and svitlana tsikhanovskyi, in principle, do you think such a meeting can take place or does it make sense in the current situation, i am absolutely sure that there is a lot of sense in that, the capsule rubs like a drug addict, what we could be doing now of these two critical situations, this is the crisis in belarus, this is the war against ukraine in the brain . that the territory of belarus is now being

used in the war against ukraine, and when we want to end the war, prepare the war, it is necessary to achieve that belarus became a democratic cabin , left this war. which we could be the same, and well, and separately, too. then we could rotate today, eh, it is worth thinking about being what the relations between our countries and the states will look like after the end of the war we we have already formulated the ideas of such a partnership, these alliances between belarus and ukraine , where we could be much closer and cooperate , and in the questions of bribery from foreign policy and regional security, we can invest in social packages, and this is where our state can do a lot and a lot. in pieces, for this we need a peaceful and democratic ukraine. well, on the other hand, who can now deny the fact that many ukrainians now have such a negative

attitude towards belarus because they perceive belarus as a part of aggression and something that never happened even in the worst situation of relations with russia, ukrainians never addressed belarus as an ally of russia, although oleksandr lukashenko was an ally of russia, you can say since 1994, but russia and belarus are always part of the ukrainian national consciousness, now it is practically disappeared, and this, by the way, is one of the results of the war. yes, it is a mickavian origin, and goethe is the culprit behind such a dismissive attitude towards belarusians, these accusations of belarusians that i do not have any significance. that's it. aggression, these gogols, that's the wrong one. he is good at relations between our peoples. goethe supports lukashenko and putin, and because it is in their interests to divide our peoples, they sow mistrust and sow such suspicion. - and the belarusians resisted the super-innovative regimes because the regime ceased to be guided by

national interests, that is, it became so much under the control of the kremlin, and that this already threatens our own belarussians yes on february 24 and after february 24 - these are the very people who advocate democracy for europeans because of the risk for freedom for life and we will continue to do what we do in independence, that 's why everything is afraid today, the meeting of svyatlanovska and vladimira zelenskaya, we will practice ukraine later that these are our natural allies, these are our best neighbors, we will develop them, we will help them as much as they can. it seems that the belarusians do not realize what by the way, we ukrainians realized in 2013 when i tell you that you do not understand during the maidan that when we defeat yanukovych we will have to fight

putin that behind yanukovych is putin and the real enemy is not yanukovych at all, but putin himself when he said the same thing to belarusians during the e-e movement against lukashenka, and most of the people who heard it did not perceive it, our main task is to overthrow the onion, and even then svitlany and khanovskaya at least appealed to vladimir putin, they said it let's help us, it means getting rid of lukashenka and we will build our relations from scratch, as far as there is an understanding that lukashenka is not the ultimate problem for those belarusians who want their country to see democratic independence. the forecast was absolutely correct. at that moment, goethe and i saw our problem as no one else. and in the very sentence, it was the first dream, and the minesweepers in russia's stirrer are our affairs, and how could i not hold lukashenko? in fact, for a certain time, belarus already began to

associate the repression of the joint forces with what is being done. lukashenko agreed with putin . belarus, we understand that now we have come to the moment when we can no longer escape from the said question about the geopolitical choice of belarus and now we refuse to ask goethe the question because we cannot introduce ourselves i am normal with ukraine, which wants to absorb us, and russia looks at us like some territory that temporarily turned out to be independent of some kind of national identity, which does not make sense from all points of view, because we can all speak russian. and the actual one we have is a cannibal who wants to simply swallow our country and destroy our national identity. now in the cabinet we have

developed the concept of revising the contractual and legal framework one with russia, eh, when i take the last democratic the attack is staring at the exit from the houses of the absolute state of the categorical e-e review and cancellation of those houses that were in the military-political sphere of the russian military presence on the territory of belarus, there will be no more. from the supranational economic support with russia and at the same time, when we think about the fact that we are returning to one thing, we must also think about an alternative, and this alternative is definitely a european choice but this partnership with ukraine is their normalization together with our closest subsidies to latvia, lithuania, poland, and ukraine, and ukraine, and, mini-vito, goethe should become a new concept of the foreign policy of belarus, and it is called the european election, and the movement in that side to our jewels to the european family to which we

belong by right according to history eh but we need to renew the normal node in all these european processes, you understand that exiting the eurasian economic union is not as easy as entering the organization of the collective agreement security is not as easy to leave as it is to enter, and by the way, i think we are already members of the shanghai cooperation organization , and there are already relations with the chinese to russia. lukashenko has taken on so many responsibilities that even the most democratic government of belarus and greta will not it's simple, but i would like the bindings that i have taken on now correspond to the national interests of belarus when we talk about hiding in belarus as an independent state with its own national identity and its own interests. and then it will be necessary are reviewing the share in such agreements, which, well, on the face of it, contradict, that's not the case, our sovereignty is not affected

in any way. who came here in 2020 to escape the repression of the belarusian regime, now the situation is not easy, on the one hand, you are persecuted by the belarusian regime and the lukashenko regime, and we know that even people were killed in kyiv under incomprehensible circumstances, such too the situation was, and on the other hand, parts of ukrainian society and the greater part, the truth must be told, have such a negative reaction to belarusians as people who are, so to speak, complicit in russia's aggression against ukraine. this is what happened on february 26. belarusians found themselves in a very pleasant situation for me. the fact that we competed against the lukashenko regime before we patrolled ukraine and the war began and we immediately changed the image of belarusians in the eyes of the public not only in ukraine but in some other countries of europe, the price of the joint ato there was such evidence in the states that uh, we have

turned into a race of people who do not carry out their abolition, of course, this is not a pity. and oleg, this reality and we are working with this reality to tie the time, inform, explain, tell why belarusians uh дочинение так это рошение why belarusians are dragging out and now the superheroes of the war are protesting, eh, what do you want the belarusian diaspora in ukraine, and of course, a certain proportion was forced to leave the territory of ukraine after the start of the war, scarlet people who zastayutsya, i don’t make absolutely ason savannas , the choice will remain with the ukrainian people during goethe’s time, and he does not make up the stage of history and not just the present tense. they help where this car is, like volunteers, and how uh, people who help the victims are sorting out the debris there, these are cleared in support of the armed forces of ukraine, where we are often

faced with some problems with legal stay here on the territory of ukraine. полепшенное a-a well, here we divide our dialogue in all and the dialogue that took place here in lviv, and that ion will help us find some new approaches, er, some new formats, and for that, how to make a solution for belarusians because i am them they stay here not because it is comfortable and easy and simple, but because it is necessary to help ukrainians to win this war. well, i am quite curious that the fact that oleksandr lukashenko is simply openly afraid of the battalion. with their hands, they are protecting ukraine from the russian aggressor , yes, gote belarus, i didn’t come to ukraine already after the war started, eh, i didn’t have any more of them

in ukraine, they already came, one word. that people are doing san savana because they stand up for ukraine because it is important for them to defend ukraine and they understand that this is also a guarantee that belarus will remain an independent sovereign state and of course lukashenko is afraid of it because goethe people show their the will of the people makes their sovereign choice that i will not shit as i will not serovat but this is always all that is absolutely not consistent with what lukashenko wanted belarusians to do for him, this is a word that simply does not let him sleep, that is why we see such attacks on belarusians who show solidarity with belarusians

and with ukrainians. which of the belarusians and weapons do not control this moscow, since the belarusian army is the championship, it is interesting to me, an interesting look at this situation, it is true , i am not under the control of moscow in any way, this is an autonomous structure, and it is very important that the same thing is every volunteer that this is actually a national effort, because i am not supported by the diaspora all over the world, and by the civil severance and democratic power. we all try to help as much as possible . is it possible to hope that this is the belarusian land now that war will not come to the territory of ukraine, what can be done for this now from a political point of view, so that you tell the ukrainian leadership how to stop these possible constant attempts by putin to involve lukashenka in such a way that the war with the participation of the belarusian army and we must remember the

pratkaznost of the regime, and it is necessary to call lukashenko what yong yosyp really is, that is, he is a criminal, that is, he is a threat to international peace and security not only in ukraine, but in europe, eh that thanks to him, these presvyageni started like this war and everything about this memory, that is, that he did not run away from rejection somewhere when he thinks that there is no way to hide in the shadow of putin, no, this should not be , of course, we also need sanctions against us of the regime, which would be different, which would be tough, which would not allow lukashenko to support the repression of belarus and slow down , in fact, russia's aggression against ukraine . the deal with the belarusian territory was carried out by the ukrainian grain collection for export supplies, in return, ion needs the organization of concrete nations, and they also allowed the export of potassium, but we

understand that the profits from exports, this is a gang, are used for financial repression. this is the creation of the creativity of weapons and ammunition, for that you need russian aggression against ukraine. that is why the ghetto must be put on the wall, under no circumstances will they allow it, no matter how lukashenko's regime, lukashenko's regime will engage in этой сделнце and if we talk about lukashenka's fate in general, do you believe that he can remain at the head of belarus if putin's regime falls? i don't think that ukraine's victory automatically means changes in belarus. i think that belarusians should aim on that and what is it our task at first no one will go our crisis our our problem for us that is why we do not relax before that what we understand that this creates certain new conditions weakens putin and may weaken lukashenko but if we want to achieve victory and then this

our reluctance, er, and only one thing depends on how fate will develop, and the situation will therefore not be easy. maksimsya in onyk, how did he achieve permogy and vrasheniyakh, this is within the political crisis, we will need to make our business bigger , well, that is, you think that even if there is no kremlin, lukashenko can still remain autonomous for a while longer, i think that such uh- uh, such a machine will hide him, and i on construction is very narrowed, and of course it will be much more difficult for him to build on a heterobicycle in this sense as well. i think that ukraine will be able to say its word on the fact that for ukraine the vydovolstny lukashenko will not be able to become the person who will guarantee security. and he takes a material

share in this war, and only democratic free european belarus will be able to be the partner of ukraine, which will be able to guarantee that we will be yours, we will be your allies, we willing to develop dialogue with you in the military-political sphere, in the security sphere, thank you, thank you, mr. valery, let me remind you that our interlocutor was valery kovalevskyi, the deputy head of the united transitional cabinet of belarus and his representative for foreign affairs, who visited lviv on the first belarusian-ukrainian form good luck thank you my greetings to all who are with us time to learn about