well, it was important to visit there and see, we know that you were also in donbas. what impressions did you get? it is clear that the scale of the destruction there is terrible and we will not hide it in eight years, but they still suffered more than other regions of ukraine during the 8 years of the invasion of the russian federation, but it is interesting how the local population reacts, because we know that the east of ukraine, after all, had a different attitude and part of the population was pro-russian, is it still there, you know, i was not there this time, but i was last time, at the end of september, i was in izyum, which had just been liberated, because i must say that i was there in chernihiv, in these regions, i can say that, of course, consolidation and national awareness are connected, after seeing what they are doing.

russians, the population is naturally more consolidated and has become nationally conscious, although it must be admitted that there are still different elements and even i heard on the street there, i did an interview, i remember the mayor of chernihiv and some man just walked and said and why did you spend so much time bombing donbas , well, no, you can’t say that everything is so smooth and perfect. but it is clear that the consultation is still taking place and the majority of the population is already very pro-ukrainian. i wonder what your position is, if possible, just based on this question, what about this reintegration, which we all talked about for 8 years, but now we see all the problems that arise even when the russians come and shoot people at close range. they can still think that this will disguise the destructive forces of ukraine

and they invent all kinds of myths about how we can then integrate them again jack because you know, you are asking me a question that i asked the day before yesterday literally to the head of the national security and defense council p. danilov because er hmm reintegration question how er to give, that is, how to weed out this population, to give or not to give political rights, the opportunity to vote. when this can be , all these are very open questions, and already today, when we are talking about the victory and reconstruction of ukraine, today it is already necessary to prepare these laws that will gradually provide reintegration and the opportunity for these people to be included in the political process in ukraine, so to speak, but we understand that both the population of crimea and the population of the occupied territories that have been occupied for a long time will be problematic if they have the opportunity to immediately vote and influence the political the process in ukraine, so what, but the law, that is, i

know that there are groups and legislative groups that are already thinking about it and are preparing for this process, yesterday, it seems, there was a conference in kyiv regarding the issue of crimea, well, integration, how will it all happen, so what, but i see that the political elite is already starting to think about it but it seems to me that we still need to treat it a little more and more seriously thank you myroslava for this conversation and i hope that next time you will visit this area peacefully, i think that this will definitely happen, thank you thank you very much, myroslava gongadze, the leadership of the voice of america office in eastern europe, after such an important trip to the ukrainian regions that are struggling, and as i understand from your emotions, they are not preparing for the worst, but believe in the best, absolutely sports

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the saturday political club anzhelika sezonka and vitaly portnikov so let's talk about international topics that, as always, affect what is happening in ukraine and the russian federation, which is at war with us and invaded our territory, and the way e- mr. putin, indian prime minister modi tried to call for dialogue and diplomacy, mr. vitay, lately we have been talking a lot about prime minister modi, who reacts somewhat differently to putin, this dictator. if before they could be called such absolute partners maybe now there are some problematic issues in their relations. is it personal, do you know, pity for the ukrainian people in the prime minister's office or own economic interests with calls to end the war

? the reason is that these are, after all, different states and the prime minister of india undoubtedly cares about the economic interests of his own state and on the one hand it was very profitable for him to buy russian at cheap prices, this is a clear thing on the other hand he sees that the world economy is in a rather difficult state that the situation is getting worse every day that everything is being done so that the ukrainian war somehow stops and putin does not want it and if the war that he has started against ukraine continues. in this way, of course, we can see a situation during which the economic well-being of india is also deteriorating and at the same time, there are no such intentions, you know, which are all

resounding. let's do something so that, after all, the west understands what our tasks are, that nato cannot dictate to someone what we understand worries of russia to the people and he never said this, he is actually far from the regional problems of europe, but for a while india understood that it could improve its situation at the expense of the well-being of the oil industry, well, there is oil, but the economy is not growing in fashion, putin said several times that the war should be stopped, well putin does not hear him. this is also completely logical. by the way, the kremlin has never heard indian leaders. even playing in soviet times is not profitable for them. is it just that putin does not listen to anyone politically? putin only listens to those who are his real allies. beijing he listens because he understands what

the interests of all of china are, that's why when tsimzenpin says that a nuclear conflict is not acceptable for china, he hears it, but not all of armenia 's allies. you see that now the armenian government is doing everything possible to somehow distance itself from moscow, it is difficult when you have russian military bases once russian peacekeepers in karabakh-2 economic ties 3 bad relations with azerbaijan four bad relations with turkey five how to break relations with moscow it is almost impossible , but the armenian prime minister meets with the head of the european council, but the armenian example meets with the president of france , all this happens, it happens naturally , that is, they drift a little bit towards the european people because they have already understood that the russians are not mediators between them and directly that you don't want a russian in a mediocre way. do you

want it, who, who, tvb, by the way, there was just news that the minister of foreign affairs surrenders to belarus, he ordered to prepare certain contacts with western leaders, that's what it's about lukashenko just wants to. well, i don't know how to blackmail putin in this way. he will change his mind from now on . is it possible that he already sees that the russian federation is losing the war in ukraine and it is necessary to establish contacts from the west? i think that this is his eternal moment. he acts as if he can find some real opportunities for himself now, but i will tell you honestly, i do not think that lukashenko has such opportunities, the people until that time, when he gave his ukraine as a territory, before the aggression, he still had such opportunities possibilities fact but now even after the 20th year, even after he

ceased to be perceived as the legitimate president of belarus, even after these repressions , he could organize some kind of dialogue between himself and the west, because he could at least offer something to the west, the release of political prisoners quality elections, national dialogue, there were opportunities to say well, you know, yes, we understood, we acted too harshly in the 20th year, but you, but we amnesty everyone, we are preparing to lift sanctions against us. perceived as a complicit in the aggression. so when myroslava spoke about the rivne npp, from which country are people expecting an attack on the rivne npp from belarus? well, these are completely understandable things, but on the other hand, this is how the west sees belarus' participation in the war against ukraine,

at least the missiles fly over belarusian territory and the russians were leaving the territory of belarus, will they be belarusian soldiers today, but on the other hand, they already have a way to get lukashenko out of the way, well, it is obviously beneficial, but the question arises whether lukashenko can actually do this and how much of russian troops is now on the territory of belarus. we don't even know the number or whether these troops, which are supposedly training to attack ukraine, can get to the residence of the president of belarus if putin wants it, and the belarusian army will protect lukashenka from the russian military. such a number of russian agents that we ca n't even imagine, think about it. if these agents were in the ukrainian leadership, yanukovych azarov, all these two ministers of defense who were russian citizens, the chief the chief of the black sea

fleet of our general staff, who was just appointed, he has already surrendered to the russians, he is the head of the sbu, i spoke with valentyn naliveichenko recently, who was the first head of the sbu after his predecessor fled to moscow , i tell him that's why you came to this office, do you know if your predecessor fled to of moscow with such knowledge about the work of the service and the lists of this agency and with all of them, you can also imagine the same and imagine the scale in belarus, belarus, where 40 years will soon be, how this russian position triumphs in various forms and until these 40 years, there was a soviet union where half of the elite was recruited by the state security committee of the soviet union. well, i don't know who lukashenka can count on if moscow decides to get rid of him. i just don't know, i don't have an answer to this question. by the way, regarding putin's visit to lukashenka put pressure on lukashenko, he can invite him to sochi , moscow, lukashenko travels to russia more often

than any foreign leader, so that he is not even perceived as a foreigner, he meets putin more regularly than it seems to me that the sticker books of the subjects of the russian federation combined. did you ever hear that putin met with the head of some region of the russian republic in the last decentralization as such, as it is correct? yes, he has nothing to talk about with them , and lukashenko we talk all the time, it seems to me that he talks to lukashenka more often than you ever develop with your own wife ludmila, because when he and ludmila came on some foreign visits , it was a protocol requirement that they see each other only at the moment when they need to hold hands and go to another presidential couple or a married couple. and so they didn't see each other, then i couldn't stand the friendship at all and i didn't want to see her in principle. well, i'm more glad to see us, we know, in general, i have the impression that i don't want to see anyone except lukashenka. they they talk

there, they do something there, they rest together, when lukashenka comes, it means they have despite all the difficulties, there are opportunities to talk about what to go for. you know, i will come to minsk now and there will be pressure on you or something. i think that this is to some extent a special operation, that is, such a sign of respect. lukashenko does not agree to anything, but he really wants to be considered that he is the real president, he has essentially lost his subjectivity. if a person loses his subjectivity and he knows that he is losing his subjectivity, then what as a result , a fairly simple thing happens. she wants recognition for her own sake. someone has to come to her with an official visit. well, someone, if this person is handed an essay or a diploma, if they are not

allowed to enter most countries of the world, if they say the so-called president of belarus would like someone to come. you could visit someone at your residence. ah, the list of these people is not long. it says putin number one and then the list goes on. that’s all . kayu, the president of kazakhstan, probably won't want to go there, pashina, the prime minister of armenia, he insults publicly who will go to see him, so there is a list, here i am, a list of foreign guests of belarusians number one putin number two putin number three vv kutya number four putin number five putin number six putin number seven mishursr and he can say vladimir and why are you coming, you haven't come to minsk for three years, you haven't been to us , the capital of brotherly belarus. well, if i go to you , my dear, then you can be more attentive, i think a good boy, that's exactly the

way it is, you know, if you want, how to deal with a, uh, difficult teenager. that's how i'll do it, but you should be smart. sasha doesn't smoke. well, yes, i'll give you such a bike for that. if you want a motorcycle, you'll have a motorcycle, but i not i know how much this is not lukashenko's event, but this is primarily a protocol sign of attention to the ally, can they resolve the issue that the belarusian army will participate in the war at any meetings in minsk, sochi, moscow, for this purpose, there is no need to choose a specific geographical point they won't report it we'll never know exactly where it happened if it does happen i wouldn't exaggerate the importance of this visit from a decision-making point of view but from a client-facing point of view if you can say so as a client, putin is working with him and this is heavy

artillery, the same patient has already been there and obviously will not achieve anything there, according to the former speaker of the state duma, gryzlov, there are many russian paramedics around lukashenka if the patient is a patient. protocol conversation for now, vitaliy, did they become such a cold shower for you personally , because i think that for some ukrainians, after all, it was like that. and when valery zaluzhnyi in an interview according to the laws said that well, in february or march in the worst case scenario at the end of january, there will be a second offensive. no, it didn’t happen because, in principle, i will say all the time. it seems to me at the beginning of this war that we are only at the beginning. our program at the beginning of the program, it can end quickly, i always say that i can

not give time forecasts, i understood the trend, ukraine has every chance to survive from the point of view of protecting its sovereignty, time, borders, the future of the country after this protection all this in the fog of war can be the most optimistic scenario. or it can be the most optimistic and you need to prepare for all scenarios. it seems to me that in the same economist, general tsifsky said that he who underestimates russia will lose. i have never underestimated russia. i always know that russians are ideologically imperial nation and not just some kind of game of people who do not understand what they want. i know that they can give up economic benefits for the empire from the point of view of a normal person from our world point of view do you understand this idiocy, the ukrainian philosophy

of life has always included the word well-being, and this has always caused in russia to appeal to the ukrainian what do you want to live a lot hahahahahaha i never understood why hahahahaha why if a person wants to come to his house where everything is in abundance and this is the same part of human development, you choose yourself what to do in this house with this family, how to develop yourself, read books or watch movies to you, have a business or be an employee, what to eat what to eat and what to drink and whom to marry, but this is all a human complex life is a complex. and if you have only one complex, this is it. let them all be afraid of us. what difference does it make to you how we live? everyone is afraid of us. well, this is

what you can fight for. that is, you then eat well and choose with whom and what and how. an average russian. no. of course, this is the philosophy of the government, the government knows better what it is doing , it expands our borders, we can tolerate it, but the government does not tolerate it, and listen to it. this is a story about the blockade. he is a city. party workers who were in leningrad did not starve, but ordinary people died by the thousands, and these ordinary people people are lying in the piskolorsky cemetery , the party leaders of leningrad are not there. so this, too, must be remembered, this is a huge problem, but you know what really struck me in the article of general zaluzhnyi , there was a phrase that to a certain extent can lead us in a different direction when the general says that there is no, that he is not ready as a marshal-manerheim to tell the ukrainian soldiers that well, what did the marshal of energy say to the finnish

soldiers that we lost the territory but kept the state and he says that i am not ready for this, we have to free as much as possible i all the time i try to explain the simple thing that you cannot appeal to the finnish experience , absolutely for this simple reason that history does not consist of one person and the war to which we are appealing is the war of the soviet union and finland, the winter war really led to the fact that finland sacrificed part of the territory and kept our sovereignty, if we could put an end to this, we said that this is experience and it is important for us, but the focus is that the soviet union came out exactly on this line, then it interrupted the line with an energy that the same for fish and in principle if he had the resources he could capture all of finland he had no resources the war was

stopped by the heavy losses of the finnish people but then there was the second world war the second world war finland became an ally of nazi germany the allies were interested in the fact that it ceased to be an ally of germany, and they guaranteed its sovereignty. to the soviet union because stalin returned to finland just as putin returned to ukraine and we do not know what happened in this area. that is, you understand, the question is not really about territorial sacrifices . so you can shove something into the beast's mouth and he will calm down , the question here is i agree with henry kessinger,

i do not agree with the fact that putin will agree with some line there on february 24, but i agree with the fact that the question lies with nato in guarantees security, if we join nato and have security guarantees for our entire territory that we control, then the territory that is internationally recognized and controlled by us, its return is by and large a matter of time and diplomacy, not a military regime with the rest of russia in putin's language, we are already talking as countries members of the european union as a member of nato and we ask this russia a question please tell me do you want to be a part of the civilized world at all do you want the sanctions to be lifted from you do you understand that we never this was not allowed to the european union, you know that you are occupying our territory, you are doomed to be an exile in world politics, and in this situation, this new russia is forced to go to these negotiations, even if you imagine that we are not now

forced to leave some of our territory , i hope that this will not happen, but yes, in its pure form, the exchange of territory for the world does not work, it does not work practically, by the way, the baltic countries were all actually occupied by the soviet army in the 1940s, they lost their independence in the 1991s, they restored it, but latvia and estonia are already without a part regions left their territory as part of the russian federation, but imagine what your estonia was now, they would not have been part of nato, that russia was satisfied with this ivangorod or pitalova, our coppers will sit down, this is a well-known proverb, but since latvia and estonia are in nato , there are no coppers at the airfields there are soviet russia and the planes of nato countries, so far no one in russia, at least so far, is not considering

the possibility of such an interview. it is possible, let's hope that it is completely possible once security guarantees, joining nato, two, this is the most important point, which in principle and let it be, of course. by the way, preventing the complete destruction of critical infrastructure. do you think of nato on such terms? as some engineer suggests, we are going to let's say a temporary renunciation of the territory that was conquered before february 24, but nato gives us guarantees for all other territory of ukraine. i no longer believe the line at all. on february 24, i believe. if you ask me about

laziness, i also believe in three lines that we can really talk about. there is the line of the state borders of ukraine in the international one. among them, i believe in it. if we do not start to withdraw from this politically, then this is already a matter for diplomats. my question and the army is a completely different line of the administrative borders of the donetsk luhansk regions and the administrative border of the autonomous republic of crimea. russia officially recognized the donetsk and luhansk people's republics, so-called in the administrative borders of donetsk luhansk oblasts i don't know where it is written, but it has been declared that this is the purpose of the special opera about this line. putin still has to talk, he can talk, but it needs to. they know in what form they joined them, but in fact they are not there, they can

be. the trap is legal, but in that administrative line, i somehow still believe that negotiations can be about it, but what kind of trouble? well, to look at it through putin's eyes, we need to talk about some line. february 24 is the same temporary line. it's simply because ukraine occupied part of the dpr of the lpr. we have to buy them. that is, it is not exactly a line. i do not understand why all the time we heard this from volodymyr zelensky at the beginning of the war, now we hear from kissinger lines and others, here is the donetsk luhansk region and the question of their future must be decided by what way negotiations are already citizens, this is outright cynicism, because these are just people who are occupied , for example, in kherson, in kherson oblast, or in zaporizhzhia,

but this is such a diplomatic cylinder. of such an idea, why is it russian, here is donetsk, akromatorsk, ukrainian? i always asked what the difference is what you say, oh, the people of donbas are suffering. why are they not suffering in kramatorsk or slavyansk? there is no such people suffering, it is generally the ukrainian population in all of donetsk oblast. because then kramatorsk is ours, our sloviansk is ours, and mariupol is ours, and in donetsk , a referendum must be held and there must be some special status for local residents . in mind that there is a separate it is precisely these areas in which there is a russian it was a diplomatic decision to stop the war, we

see that it ultimately led to the fact that russia renewed its ambitions for the entire territory of these regions, at least that is, for russia did not want to stop the war, so there are issues that are quite important to me, and i don't think that it is solved that way at all. i think that it is solved differently, and in principle, i don't really believe in vladimir putin's willingness to go to any type of negotiations. all the time i hear from all western politicians that this war must end at the negotiating table, most of it ends at the victory table, let's hold negotiations when ukraine has a favorable position, it always reminds me of this anecdote about the british kings, you know that no one is there