this is the question that now, in the conditions of the armed aggression of the russian federation and the active phase, first of all, it is the security sector, now everything is focused on providing the security sector, the armed forces and other military formations that are engaged in the defense of our state with everything necessary and due. welcome to the first channel of public broadcasting thank you that in your tight schedule, we know that you only found time to chat after the meeting today, good afternoon, i would like to ask you, well, i want such a naive question to ask about your work, because if i'm not mistaken, you are the only minister in the cabinet who does not head the ministry, if we understand, for example, what the minister of health, the minister of culture, the minister of economy is responsible for, yes, they have their own ministries, they have a certain list of powers, then a for what is the responsibility of the minister of the cabinet of ministers? well

, according to the new law on the cabinet of ministers of ukraine, the government can have two members of the government who do not head separate ministries in our government - this is the vice-prime minister responsible for european integration and the traditional minister of the cabinet. ministers of ukraine until 2016, the position of state secretaries was introduced , including in the cabinet of ministers of ukraine, the powers of the minister of the cabinet of ministers were wide enough, now they focus on organizing the direct work of the government as a collegial body, as well as coordinating the activities of central executive bodies that are not coordinated by others by members of the government or directly subordinate to the cabinet of ministers of ukraine, what is this? the cabinet of ministers left. this is the state service for ethnopolitics and freedom of conscience. before that, a decision was made on state cinema. similarly, there are separate bodies that a priori were under the cabinet of ministers of ukraine, in particular, this is the national agency for civil service, and this is a block

of central bodies of the executive power and special status, in particular . of collegiate bodies, in particular, the antimonopoly committee - this is the commission for the regulation of gambling games, the lottery , this is the state property fund, which has a special status, a separate method - this is a block of anti-corruption bodies, in particular, this bureau of economic security, this is nazk, this is nabu, this is an agency for searching for property and assets, which has now acquired a completely new meaning in connection with the confiscation of russian assets, this is of course the state statistics service, which has been in the cabinet of ministers of ukraine since the 19th year. that is, this is a serious list of central executive bodies i would like to emphasize that not everywhere we are involved in policy formation, in particular, for example, we have a body subordinate to which policy is formed by three ministries: the ministry of economy, the ministry of agrarian policy of the ministry of health, we are talking about the state consumer service, which was created actually at the

request of the european e-e regulations on product quality care, but how, in particular, during the pandemic, a large part of the work was dedicated to the actual activities against the demographics, well, i want to say that, for example the policy regarding there a-a and the gambling regulation commission also helps to form the vice-prime minister for digital transformation, but since they are directly subordinate to the cabinet of ministers of ukraine of course, the coordination of their activities has been carried out by the minister of the comet of ministers in recent months and on the air of the national telethon and on your youtube channel. you very often spoke about the reform of public administration and in general about the public service, there were many questions . apparatus, we often hear from the mass media after the report

, for example, of the security service of ukraine, about the discovery of traitors of collaborators in the ranks do you have information on how many of these were discovered during the more than 300 days of russia's full-scale invasion of ukraine, and do i already have any convictions or suspicions about them? well, let's start with the last of your convictions. this is investigating the security of ukraine. there are convictions, including her verdicts against the employees of the secretariat of the cabinet of ministers of ukraine and who were exposed in cooperation with the enemy or in negligence in working with documents when people who received access to the documentation were working and i think that the security service of ukraine as a social body who is authorized for counter-intelligence activities, he will gladly comment on this to me. i think it is not very useful to comment on this. all the employees of the secretariat of the cabinet of ministers were exposed. this is exactly during

this period after 24. some employees, they were discovered differently in us as a result of working with these people, but i say once again that this is a very specific direction and i really think that it is up to the experts who worked there to comment for your information, according to some measures, the actions helped, but it is still the direction of counterintelligence of the sbu, recently somewhere i read such an interesting phrase in one of the mass media. and about the fact that the state is the largest employer in the country over the civil service in local self-government bodies , agencies, commissions etc., more than 5 million ukrainians work, however, it is clear that not all of them are civil servants, how many civil servants are there in ukraine right now, uh, because they occupy relevant positions, this is a very dynamic figure, we have more than 200,000 positions civil service, but they are busy month by month because it is a living organism, people are fired, people are appointed, people are currently dying, sometimes they get sick, they

retire, etc., about 183,000 people are now entering the civil service in active service, so you named the actual number of the total number of people who receive wages directly or indirectly through the state budget, this includes the security sector, this includes education, this is health care, this is many, many other people who are called budgetary absolutely well, conditionally yes conditionally yes because for example in the health care system and not only conditional state employees receive funds from the state budget there otherwise now contracting goes through the health service but in general these are people who are associated with receiving funds from payers taxes because any funds in the state budget are usually the funds of taxpayers, now due to the armed aggression of the russian federation, partly these are funds received from western partners, but they still go to the state budget and then it is redistributed like this, if we are talking about civil servants against the background of the number you announced, it is of course a

much smaller part than even the employees of local self-government bodies, etc. local state administrations were before the new one as part of the completion of the first stage before centralization in the 20th year, much of this very much in them administrations were reduced, there was a consolidation of the administrator units well, he himself the functionality of the district state administrations was significantly confused, therefore, in this case, it is a natural process that we bring the closest forces of the government to the new strategy of public administration reform, and actually in it we take into account the nuances of the active phase of the armed aggression of the russian federation, the strengthening of the security component and the challenges associated with this, so and the second point is that ukraine received the status of a candidate for joining the european union and it is necessary to synchronize both the civil service and public administration in general, the public service and the requirements european directives, although the assessment of the previous one,

which spoke there as part of the cinema program, which is conducting an assessment of the actual capacity of european countries in the field of public administration, says that in this regard, we are not the closest to the standards of the european union , it is precisely this strategy. i would like to talk separately about management reform, however , i still want to return to civil servants because the numbers are dynamic, especially now during martial law actions during a full-scale invasion. and do you know how many civil servants resigned for at this time, how many went abroad because it is possible that they died. these are the chains . children and not for whom it is no secret that womanhood

makes up the lion's share of civil servants who were forced to leave both their regions and sometimes also countries, and on the other hand there are requirements of the law on civil service in independence of gender, age, etc. if you take the oath of a civil servant, you put it on yourself certain duties were approved by a number of legislative decisions by people's deputies that allowed some features of public service during martial law , including the conditions for terminating employment without dismissal, as well as the opportunity for those citizens who, as a result of russia's armed aggression, were forced to to find yourself abroad by terminating such relationships, to receive payments from e.e. foreign countries, it is possible to have some part- time work, because otherwise it would be direct corruption, since it is not for anyone the secret is that civil servants have clear sources of income and in the future declare them, and none of these were foreseen in the current legislation, and in general i want to say that

i do not have complete statistics for the entire civil service, but of course there are losses, because like any stratum of society civil servants also from the first days became the head of the security sector, this applies to all blocks of the security sector, both the armed forces of ukraine and the territorial defense as a component of the armed forces of ukraine, the state service of ukraine the border service, the national guard, all the places where mobilization was carried out, for example, in our civil service, one of the heads of the regional units was killed, there are losses during the shelling, it is no secret that there were losses in mykolaiv oda, kharkiv employees of local self-government bodies die during rocket shelling well, of course, you already mentioned about collaboration unfortunately, it turns out that collaboration as a result of the liberation of the territory in the north of kharkiv region as a result of the deoccupation of the right bank of the kherson region and the security services also work with those people who betrayed their oath, this applies to both civil servants and employees of local self-government bodies, i think that they

also have interesting statistics about this. and unfortunately , i do not have it, taking into account everything that you have just told me, is there anyone who works in the civil service or is there anyone left work , do you feel a lack of personnel? wow, we already talked about the difference between the number of employees and the actual number, it did not arise for nothing, it is not that there is a lack of 30,000 workers, it is an indicator of the fact that we are not transparent and we are always honest payment conditions of work, i.e. a civil servant must have a decent salary instead. he usually has a small official salary and is tied to incentive payments, which are usually bonuses, allowances, etc. we change and propose that the actual salary should be about 70% of the actual

salary, and for 30 years, stimulating cases in which its importance will not force the manager to hold several vacancies because vacancies are a salary fund that can be allocated to bonuses and which are not as such an incentive, which is actually a supplement to the real salary, so it seems to me that now we have the potential to physically reduce positions, but in addition, we also have a great potential to optimize now we are finishing, or rather, we have already completed the functional survey of the central executive bodies of the us civil service, a large document is being prepared, there are more than 100 pages, it will be about functions that are duplicated, functions that can be replaced, we found several functions that are not carried out by anyone at all and this can happen unfortunately, this will be a large document, we will work on it because in the summer, when we worked as part of the recovery in our subgroup that was engaged in the reform of the central body of executive power, we talked about

the need to actually optimize the central bodies of executive power and complete the reform of the state in ukraine, in terms of the distribution of policy-making and policy-implementation functions , if we complete it now, of course , what will be the number of civil servants it will be involved less than the one that is currently declared. that is, it will not be more than 200,000 positions, but less. what number is less? well, we have to look, because many processes are centralized, but at the same time, we see that the armed aggression of the russian federation is in an active phase, it makes new demands when we are forced to work face-to-face and sometimes in the absence of communication during the period of martial law , the mandatory competitive selection of written civil service was suspended, this somehow helped to recruit high-quality twice, this is the second time, the first time was during the covid-19 pandemic; in fact, we suspended it until effective mechanisms for ensuring the

security of both contestants and members of the competition commissions were made . in the remote mode, etc., it is difficult to say now about the safety of conducting the tender procedure in full in the amount in which there is a-and we do not recommend now er-e to actively use this mechanism but of course there are a number of positions that require specialists and of course the heads of the heads of the structural divisions, they actually perform the hr function, but the appointment is made solely on the basis of the requirement of having a professional background that corresponds to the position of the head, how long will this procedure be, well, in this case, i think that at least for the period of martial law and a certain period after its end, if there are others some decisions, mechanisms, etc. we are ready to implement them if the people's deputies praise such a decision, so that this suspension of the competitive

selection is caused by the mandatory competitive selection in the first place safety is primarily a component of safety, and the second point is that we must not forget that a full-fledged competition involves a certain set of measures related to declaration, related to special inspections , etc. used in its entirety, and therefore it may be grounds for some appeals, etc., instead, i want to say that two important competitions are currently taking place according to the full procedure, this is the competition for the head of the property search agency and the competition for the election of the director of the national agency on nabu, which is conducted according to the full procedure, i want to return to the salaries that you talked about earlier, i am still a child who was born in the soviet union, and i remember that a person who held a position in the civil service was, well, considered so elite because it was

possible to get official housing, it was possible to get all kinds of goodies there and more salary and allowances for her premium and for that and for that for years of service and a better pension and earlier it was possible to retire even a sanatorium-resort, well, that is, public service - it was something much better now how can you interest specialists who would like to work for the state, but do not always agree to it because the salary does not correspond to the market, i, as a child born in the soviet era, want to tell you that this is not exactly the case rather, you have now described the portrait of an employee of the party or komsomol or trade union vertical , because the actual civil servants who were employees of the so-called executive committee and in regional city districts, etc., were in small numbers and they actually played the role of auxiliary personnel for the implementation of decisions made in the party komsomol or other structures, and

the state was everywhere, that is, there were no civil servants, so when it is mentioned about the number of civil servants there, and you too, it is an irrelevant comparison, because the communist party apparatus is not taken into account the apparatus of the com is taken into account, the same trade unions are state-owned by function, just like the conditional imaginary social package of the soviet era, where there was housing that was allegedly not your private property, but de facto, it was yours, and which was provided by some sanatoriums and resorts, various special stores, benches and everything else, for many it was an opportunity for transport, to get a tv outside the queue to buy, etc., so we must forget about it forever and return to what we already have you talked a couple of minutes ago about the fact that the level of pay for civil servants should be decent. another issue is that now in the conditions of armed aggression of the russian federation and the active phase , first of all it is the security sector and of course we

we understand that while the level of pay for civil servants remains at the level of the previous year, indexation is taking place there, literally within the lowest category of positions in category b, the purchasing power and salaries have naturally fallen, just like everywhere else in the economy, but we also had completely different ones, now everything is focused on therefore, in order to ensure the security sector, the armed forces and other military formations that are engaged in the defense of our state, everything is necessary after the end of martial law. i am convinced that from the implementation of the wage reform the level the salary of civil servants should be close to the average market at least. this is what we dreamed about, what is it called, and even then , despite the fact that the civil service will be compact , digitalized, and directed to the implementation of service services, we are convinced that we will reach the decent level of salary that we imagine in of our predictions, when it will not be necessary to

pay homage to one's manager in order to queue for housing. and when those programs that were launched several years ago for cheap mortgages will work. even now it is offered for military personnel. when we return to a decent level of training, it is available to purchase another, possibly mobile equipment, etc. well, of course. accordingly , we are moving away from various social packages in the direction of sanatorium service, we have not had it for a long time. maybe someone is still breaking some departmental institutions now all the ministries, and vice versa, are handing over to the state property fund the state enterprises that they still have in order for them to either manage them or give them for privatization because the state, as for me, subjectively, from my point of view, not always. on the contrary, it is rarely an effective owner, as is the case with many communities, so in this case it is necessary to move away from it, it is necessary to pay people transparently decent wages and in this way

compete on the market labor and what will happen to the bonuses of civil servants in the event of the introduction of this system of uniform approaches to the payment of labor that you are talking about now, which will be but only after active information that they will become bonuses because i already said during the conversation that now bonuses are in fact, the compensation of the real salary and we still guarantee the implementation of the key indicators of the so-called kipiais, which , according to the results, depends on how the people's deputies choose the path, because there the variable part can be, they can be monthly, quarterly, it can be annual that there is a part of the allowances still provided for in the law, which must be paid without fail and which entail certain nuances, i.e. bonuses will finally become a stimulator and not a compensator for a low official salary, i.e. in your opinion, this will motivate you to work better and definitely feel like a serviceman, but for this you need to finish the function of separating policy formation and

implementation, because many people perceive any representative of the government as officials, for many people, the heads of housing and communal services there are some eh of communal institutions, first of all, it is also an official for two people in many people. they are churches, yes, yes, and well, the question is how it is built in the community, because i, for example , uh, considering my origin from lviv, i i want to say that in lviv there has been a long and productive reform of local self-government and their communal enterprises under different mayors in the direction of european standards and many people do not imagine it, but i see that in some regions such ideas are still preserved, let me return to this of the updated strategy that you talked about, the reform of public administration in ukraine, the previous

strategy was approved last year and was supposed to be in effect until the 25th year, thus the reform itself began with the support of the european union back in the 16th year. this is about this updated strategy for public administration reforms. well, you already talked about the optimization of central state authorities, will it involve reducing the number of enterprises and dividing their functions into well, damn, it seems that we are not talking about enterprises, i already said that we are a conceptual field it is possible that there are conditions, so yes, of the ministry of the ministry, well, it cannot provide there, because the state service of state administration does not get involved in political decisions, and the number of the ministry is a purely political decision, because this decision is two a coalition of political parties in the verkhovna rada or a mono-majority if in our case today where do they make such a decision but as you know it is already gradually happening two ministries are now united and

the position of deputy prime minister for reconstruction has been created and in fact two the ministries will now undergo unification, including those under them. that is, it is the inspection agency that is in coordination with the two ministries. they will be under the coronation of one vice-prime minister, and this will be the pilot in order to understand how this process continues if there is a political solution, we are ready to consider it, implement it, etc., but there is another important thing. i already said when i mentioned the concept, there are two components that are important to me. the first is taking into account the nuances of the state of martial law in ukraine and the moments related to it. are related, and the second point is an end-to-end policy regarding european integration in all state institutions, that is, we must move away from the fact that we have specialists in european integration who do something in some places, this should be end-to-end for every civil servant. we

we must not just fulfill 7 requirements. we must go further and start negotiations regarding the entry into the european union. and for this, we also need to make many by-laws, including draft laws at the level of the ministry of times , which form policies that the verkhovna rada will be able to approve. and we are already in in the future, we will implement it to strengthen this component. we also took this into account in the strategy of reforming public administration. at the beginning of july, a plan for the recovery of ukraine was presented in lugano. you have already started even talk about him, and i remember there was such a moment when instead of the secretariat of the cabinet of ministers, a center of government was created that would be responsible for this is all that is in each ministry, but it works separately. accounting , personnel management, finances, legal support, etc., they did not give up on this idea and no one refuses this idea, i think it is the dream of many generations of government officials who wanted to do it, and we

want to go to that systematically, that is why we initiated the development of the appropriate legislation in terms of legislative work because it cannot be done simply by a decision of the committee of ministers, it is a whole series of legislative acts that needs to be clarified , including the law on the cabinet of ministers on the central bodies of executive power, etc., because there are nuances that determine the legal provision of any -what kind of state body or private as er public in the organization of public law, the same applies to any ministry of this and the cabinet of ministers, etc. really and the moment of self-diagnosis that was carried out in the ministries and now the functional examination that was holding in ministries and all agencies , services, etc., all central bodies of the executive power. he will allow us to see where this can be done. there is a vision of how to implement it. there is no universal approach in the countries of the european union and simply in developed countries. but i think that we do not

work that option, which will be interesting because we have already moved to the second stage of the implementation of h&m's integrated resource management program and i believe that it has a perspective, it will allow financiers and human resources to united, and then i have the government's command center will deal with it, at least for the ministry , to significantly optimize its work. well, of course, there should be a healthy compromise. because sometimes it is easier to have some structural units there that will help than to serve as it is now. because some analyzes of some ministries and some sofs say that the units that deal with provisioning there, due to the small total number there, can reach up to 40%. units that deal with formation or implementation politics is also wrong, so there must be

a healthy balance, any ministries must have quality assurance of this: personnel , financial, accounting , legal, it, etc., but the center of the government itself must provide for such an optimized structure with ministries where the ministry will remain only the function of policy formation the implementation will be by the services of agencies, then we can say that it will be a successful project, but we will definitely make appropriate proposals regarding such changes in the event of the success of such a optimization, yes, the creation of a government center will reduce certain positions of the same accountants in personnel services, etc. and are you currently thinking about what to offer those people who will be released in the event of such optimization? - secondly, there are

quite a lot of positions that are opening up, well, in particular, we mentioned with you about european integration, and now we have such a transition period associated with martial law. but before the start of the active phase of armed aggression, we people's deputies adopted a law on administrative procedure, which provides for a lot of processes that will have to be implemented. and it seems to me that these people who may be re-profiled. the law on the administrative procedure it requires the active interaction of any body with the citizen and here, er, i think that the great field is in order to implement this is correct, that's why i don't have such plans now, whether before or in the analysis, so that we can do as many reductions as necessary. i think that there are enough

vacancies in the civil service in local self-government bodies for specialists to find themselves, and first we need to go through the process of forming this center of government, and then on the basis analysis, what functionality will it have, what will be left to the ministries, what will be based on the government, then you can already make predictions about whether it is necessary to release or transfer people or something else that needs to be done. and finally the holidays are approaching and the new year and christmas and other holidays will be, and this is despite the fact that we live under martial law, and from you personally i would like to hear greetings to all ukrainians who are now in ukraine in the free liberated occupied territories who are abroad what can you say to them i i would like to wish my fellow citizens that they may celebrate both the bright christmas and the new year with their families, if possible.

unfortunately, the active phase of the armed aggression of the russian federation has separated many ukrainian families. more than a million of our fellow citizens in the ranks of the security sector defend our independence and their families are separated from them and sometimes even forced to be abroad. christmas will be with your family or at work. i still don't know. well, then i wish you to spend these holidays with your family. well, in the new year, continue to work as efficiently as possible. in the conditions of martial law, thank you.