well, the problem that hindered the appearance of investors in ukraine was the complexity of the interaction between the state and business, and major problems of communication with the tax department, major problems of communication with state bodies. and back in the summer, you announced a major tax reform in the country. i am a big supporter of radical tax changes, and they believe that they should probably be done right now. this is our unique chance to change the culture of paying taxes in the country. let's talk about it. what concrete steps do you propose in your concept? we are talking about it this summer. at first, this reform was called 10-10, then it was abandoned. it is simply called such a big economic reform in the country. it has both its supporters and skeptics , including among the representatives of the authorities. let 's try to figure out what you you propose in the context of tax reform and let's talk and in general and specifically let's certainly and

definitely we are working very actively now on this reform and we plan to really implement fundamental tax changes in the country so that well, the entire existing tax system for today well, let's be honest, it's a certain self-deception on the one hand, everyone pretends that everything is fine, everything is fine on the other hand, 90% of businesses in one way or another are engaged in tax optimization, and more than 50% of ukrainian citizens in one way or another, they receive income in an unofficial way without paying taxes. now let's figure out the specific numbers and specific taxes , what we are talking about, we are talking about reducing the basic rates of taxes on the incomes of people, citizens of ukraine on basic consumption, i.e. value added tax and on investments, i.e. income tax, not up to some general level, but up to the level offered by our main competitors, and now we will clearly look at it from the other side, it will involve increased

responsibility for anyone or a citizen of ukraine or an enterprise for tax evasion, it will provide significant incentives for the transition to cashless payments in ukraine, one of the best let's say it-platforms from the point of view of digital of banking is one of the best in the world - it is objectively so and it is in order to completely switch to cashless payments now what exactly are we going to do for each tax let's probably start with ordinary citizens i think that no one has ever thought about it but if you sit down and calculate that the cost of white payment of wages for the enterprise and for the citizen is 51.5% today. that is, for uah 10,000 of wages paid , uah 5,100 is paid in taxes in the form of a single social contribution in the form of personal income tax in the form of military levy this is a rather high general tax even by european standards and

payment of vat when buying goods that are currently subject to vat, we will now come to it separately, this is a separate component, now it has become a discovery for some who did not even count, such people think that 10 thousand years are five more look , the question immediately arises that a--a company that works in the white and must pay some kind of salary to the employee, it simply becomes uncompetitive with those who prepare funds at 5, 7, 8, 10%. and will be able to pay there on 20% higher salary for a person, our vision is that the total tax burden on the wage fund should be from 10 to 15%. this is exactly the level that will allow 95% of enterprises to painlessly switch to the payment of wages in bila. at the same time, some services that today are included in a single social contribution should be identified as a truly marketable

real service, for example, social insurance. let's think with you. who sits in the studio works in office premises and for a person who works for an oil refinery at a metallurgical plant they are probably not comparable in 100 times the risk of getting injured in an accident, but the co-existing system assumes the same load, so insurance there for you for office workers will probably cost 0.102-03% of the salary a for a person or an employer who works in dangerous conditions . it will probably cost 4-5-10 calculations. when we lower the rates, for example, of the same euv, then we get a certain childization of wages and business will go for it, yes. now i will prove this. yes, there should be a basic taxation of wages of 10-15% separately , the employer must pay real insurance for social risks of social

responsibility, which will really ensure a fair payment for the citizen of ukraine. the second is pension savings. now we have individual pension accounts, but we understand perfectly . that all pension payments that go do not go to savings, they go to financing current pensions; moreover, a situation has arisen where more than 50% of the income from the social insurance institution is the income of the state in fact, it pays itself 70%. it seems to me that in different euv these are state positions, not only the enterprise, these are military personnel, these are employees of the budget sector, these are doctors , doctors and employees of the defense sector, employees of state enterprises from budget money, absolutely correct, that is, there is an interesting question there only 20% of people work, but up to 70% of the income from this tax and where do they come from? the question is why do 80% of employees or employers pay only 30%

of income? really become a hoarder, a person who pays monthly herself or the employer pays for her should accumulate in his account and she must clearly understand that this is my money, to which i have access, which is invested , invested, stored according to the absolute transparency determined by her, understood, and this also applies to health insurance, but i would like to comment on the pension reform even before the war, we had almost 1.5 pensioners per working person, now in conditions when several million working ukrainians left ukraine there are a large number of pensioners left, well, this burden has become even greater and has always been a problem of pension reform, and the project is cool, you will receive your pension accumulated there in 20-30 years, and what to do with pensioners today, for what funds are they in it is de facto today that the state is about what did we say when the state

pays 70 to 70% of the euv itself and delta is still closed by directly subsidizing the pension fund, the state is already de facto paying this pension with a direct subsidy, in fact this is already practically happening. it practically does not change anything, we just have to accept that this is a social responsibility, the social duty of the state to provide a basic level of pension, that's all, period, and we need to untie it from the connection with the existing system of virtual pension savings, which does not exist, too, everything is very good allowed people i hear this the audience hears but still why is it not implemented then and why is there a skeptic look because definitely such fundamental changes they have certain risks and definitely we must break this circle why do we have such the proportion of employees and pensioners because new jobs are not created. and what is needed to create new jobs ? policy is needed. zaporizhstal worked at the makiiv metallurgical plant.

well, you know how important large productions are, right? and that in the work of creating a job , i will finish one thought and then we let's move on to the second, what is needed to create jobs, investments are needed, when there is such an opaque tax field, there will be no investments, so we cannot reduce the number of pensioners, we can only increase the number of jobs, and one of the most important components in this formula is an attractive tax system so that there are more jobs. therefore, we need to break this closed circle. it is clear that the effect will not be immediate, not the next day, and maybe not the next month, but it will be after some time time but we need to get this whole system going now going back to your question about big business see the economy has to be balanced it's not just about big business it's about there is definitely a certain structural balance, industries such as metallurgy, such as chemistry , such as mechanical engineering, large, small enterprises are impossible there, and such enterprises must be in the economy, but in a healthy economy, 70%

of jobs are always created at medium and small enterprises that work in various industries and production and service and export and to the domestic market and processing and extraction also the question is that the rules should be the same and fair for everyone so as not to create preferences for metallurgists neither the service economy, nor foreign companies, nor ukrainian ones. everything should be equally fair, fair for everyone, what to do with the main corruption tax in ukraine, vat , you propose to change it too, but in my opinion, the reduction of the vat rate will not really affect the desire to play with this money and to create and continue to implement those tax schemes that exist around vat will affect, i will explain why, because the cost of any fraud with vat, the cost price has a certain

level and er, this level of the rate that we offer is about 10%, or a little more or a little less. it is very close to the cost price, and the 10% vat rate is 9.1% of the price of the product, just like 20% is 16.6% of the product. %. there is a style that is not commensurate with the risks that the consumer of this service will bear, so we believe that we will remove it. actually, the economic incentive for such manipulations is a very good example - this is fuel. yes, when the vat rate on fuel was reduced, which was primarily aimed at a social goal for not to to allow a further increase in the price of gasoline, what we noticed, we noticed that manipulations with fuel documents, which were often used to avoid abuse of vat , decreased tenfold because it simply

became economically uninteresting and actually speaking , the same experiment, the same change we want to continue actually speaking from the point of view of all vat, but what is important for every citizen of ukraine is that now we are telling you about some nuances of the economy, finance, taxes, vat is ultimately a tax that each of us pays 20% of the price of the product before if the vat is conditionally reduced to 10, this means that even if we do not reduce the price of goods on the shelf, we will not reduce the cost of utility services. we will stop further growth. well, because we understand that there is a huge infectious pressure today, when paying for electricity, we pay including 20% a year plus two vat and there will be +10 vat, i.e. 10% less paying for garbage removal, a similar situation paying for water, a similar situation paying for gas for heat, a similar

situation buying food products, absolutely the same moreover, i specially we specially analyzed the experience of the european union, yes. if we take a check from a supermarket in any european country , up to 80% of the products on this list have a preferential rate of vat on food products of basic consumption, the preferential rate is different in different countries, somewhere it is zero, somewhere three, somewhere seven, somewhere nine there is no single approach for basic consumer goods. why such a story is probably not very correct to do in ukraine, because as soon as we leave the differentiated rates in our tax eyes tax abuses will begin, those who work to optimize taxes in one segment , they sing, they pump here. believe us, we have very enterprising people who do not want to engage in the real sector in principle or will engage in these manipulations, so it is

better to have a single reduced rate of about 10%. because the weighted average effective vat rate in the european union is actually 9-10%. rather than having differentiated rates. anyway, now sometimes you come to stores and they do n't give you a check, they say, well, we can't cash register closed let's go without a check and so on well, some businesses still manage, the lack of electricity became the reason not to issue fiscal checks, but what you tell me personally likes it very much , the audience likes it and everyone wants to pay less and the explanations are logical, but uh, when you are in the public space comes out of your concept , on the contrary, there is the head of the finance committee, danylo hetmantsev, and he says, uh, this whole structure that is proposed, that is proposed in the form of a reform, it is not viable, we have not seen any concrete calculations and it's all empty chatter,

you can't do that, you can't do that, it's impossible and uh, there's nothing to discuss here at all and why do they arise and what are they based on such positions, which, in my opinion, are quite strange because well, the presidential team in the parliament and you as a representative of the president's office, well, you should move in the same direction and declaratively, everyone talks about the desire to improve the lives of ukrainians, but there is such a dispute here, why, look, i will not comment on the position of the words of individual deputies of individual members about the teams i think it's better for you na-nafliv here the question to do well how do they justify it how do you understand you justify it all very simply first there is a certain international experience there is a huge number of successful cases well let's go there the simplest is ireland yes which by reducing the tax rate on profit from 50% to 12 received a five-fold increase in income within five years, there is the experience of cyprus, which was in a very

similar situation to ours, which also reduced all taxes by two or three times, while also having a war on its territory with northern cyprus, also in times literally for several years, we have an example of bulgaria, which in 2008 introduced the 10-10 yes system and reduced income tax and personal income tax from 30% in the crisis year of 2009, instead of a decrease in times, they received in the first half of the year it grew by 37%. the question is not why it's cool we understand because natasha allow it and we have absolutely clear, absolutely clear logic and absolutely clear international experience , how it happens, we have similar calculations for all this why for some reason individual people do not want to hear and accept this, well , this is not my issue, i cannot be responsible for them, we understand that there is an absolutely critical majority of the presidential

government team that supports such economic tax reforms, and we are not talking about the 10-10 rate. about the ideology and about the model about which allow me, there is an absolute majority in the composition of the government that also supports this yes, there is an absolute majority of deputies who support it are absolutely there, the vast majority of business 90 plus percent who support it are definitely separate voices that do not support there are certainly some gaps in our system and in our proposed model, and we are ready to talk about them. but we cannot be responsible for every specific person in the team. we believe that this is the right model . step by step we will bring it to implementation and from this model the most important thing is that everyone wins and the average citizen of ukraine wins business and the state wins let's start with the most important citizen of ukraine that wins every citizen vat of ukraine, a reduction in vat means either

a reduction in the prices of basic products or, at the very least, a stop to inflation. second only to the income tax, those who receive wages in belarus pay, they are paid at least 9% less tax, that is, an increase in their wages by 10% . so if someone receives a salary in an envelope today he will have a full moral right to come to his employer and say look , first of all, i have an extremely great responsibility for receiving such a salary , i will not receive it like this, secondly, i see that everyone pays the bill, please pay the tax bill for the situation is not that big and i want to receive state services and state products, such as a preferential route, and i have the right to it, and then we expect that the whitewashing of wages will reach 90-95%. therefore, for people, this is an absolutely obvious story for business, too, precisely those costs that

they often bear today for tax optimization, they will simply be able to pay into the state budget to finance the armed forces of ukraine today, and for the state, again, definitely. there are certain assumptions about business behavior and we believe that it will be a two-way movement. if we go to a business meeting , that business will all go to work in the white state, in the end it will get a completely transparent economy, that is the real situation in the ideal size of the economy and at least the same tax payments. and you can confirm or deny that phrase about why this reform was not introduced, which you say, you argue very well, because there was a lot of consultation with our european partners, they considered what we can implement, what we cannot, as far as in the current conditions, in the conditions of a great war, we are dependent on the consultation of europe, in this case, the question is not in europe, it is a question with the whole navel of our international partners, definitely considering that up to 50% of our

expenses are financed by our partners, we do not have the right to do it on our own, well, that it will be somehow incorrect on our part, therefore these consultations are definitely necessary and they are actively conducted, what can i say? practically all our international partners hear us, understand us and in principle support us, there is only one international the counterparty that does not want to hear us is the international monetary fund that does not want to hear for one simple reason, because there is simply a lack of understanding of the reality of the ukrainian economy, there is a standard template thinking that is used in such cases, there is a war, raise taxes, taxes are not raised, you improve the administration from reality, fiscal pressure they they do not understand that this is all a fiscal system, it is part of this tax optimization system that was built for 30 years in our country, we can explain it to the imf, for example, we signed with the imf a memorandum on cooperation for this year, for a program of approximately 20 billion dollars. according to

this memorandum, we have to carry out certain tax changes. and, in most cases, return to the pre-war period certain taxation, which is completely at odds with the concept that you voice, plus on one among such flagships of the tax reform is the tax on withdrawn capital, which was announced in the pre-election promises of president zelenskyi, and with which business has been working since the 15th year, and even under the previous government, business went to business and demanded its adoption, and everyone was in favor of it, but the same international monetary fund simply blocks uh similar projects and says excuse me or our money or your tax reforms and uh every government at every stage it is very much in favor of various tax reforms and i really want to implement them but when we face the specifics of what we need money from the imf, which in the future gives the opportunity to receive other money, then we choose to cooperate with the imf today

according to the old tax legislation and remain uh in those uh in the wagon in which we traveled conceptually you absolutely right yes yes, unfortunately it was, but from the point of view of specifics, this time it is a little bit wrong, first of all, there is not yet any monetary program with the imf , this memorandum, which was signed, does not yet provide for any financing from the imf, unfortunately, this is an empty program from the point of view of money, the second memorandum was signed not for a year, but the identifying duration of this memorandum is 4 months indicatively until march, where ukraine undertook not to carry out or introduce radical tax changes during this period and undertook to eliminate some tax benefits, for example, the introduction of a two- percent turnover tax, which really was probably well, as we now see, it is not quite the right decision, so this benefit really needs to be removed, which was given, but there are no other obligations with the imf, we are currently

in the process of intensive consultations with them, and i am sure that we will still be able to find arguments to convince the imf that there really should be a preferential tax system for reconstruction in our country, and in order to provide incentives and impulses, the second is about what we have unfortunately, the corruption in the tax system is so deep and pervasive that neither fiscal measures nor fiscal pressure nor tax increases will change anything. now they are complaining that there is a product for this in the process of this cutting. yes, it may be in some period. it is really scary that there will be some kind of failure. yes, there may be worries about how it will work, but unfortunately we do not have another exit and sooner or later we will come to this, there is simply no other solution. i

hope that it will be faster. and what are the short-term prospects for solving the problem of tax pressure on business today ? this is due to the fact that potolkov simply blocks the tax invoices of businesses and collects money where she has no right to collect. but there is no way out in business and they say, well, listen to us or go deeper in the shadow, at the same time, we hear ah-ah about what they say that the state creates relief for the existence of business, but on the other hand, the tax office plays this game and there is no leverage for business, really look at this. we hear such signals from business everywhere and we need to again after all, fight not with the consequences, but fight with the reason why this is happening, of course the tax office fulfills its function and you yourself understand what problems are inside the tax office, and it tries at any

cost to fulfill the plans and fill the budget, and we we understand that if there were no certain artificial things, such as the blocking of tax invoices, the suspension of vat refunds, such as the demand for advance payments of overpayments from businesses for previous periods of tax on advances from businesses and payments for previous periods in arrears, such as the payment of the vat to ourselves, then there would be a failure in the budget there are many times more than actually, it is a fiction, it is a fiction, it really is a fiction, that is why i say once again that we still need to deal with the reasons if there is no economic motivation for optimizing taxes, there will be no blocking of tax invoices, there are no problems with inspections and none of those problems that the business talked about today , because let's also be honest about why there is a blocking of tax invoices, even if the company itself did not manipulate vat , then with a probability of 99% - it was done by one of

its suppliers or someone from his contractors and further along the chain, everything was blocked, the optimization of the supply and in the imf vat is all important, but periodically i want to lower it to the ground, there is the issue of the exchange rate, at the end , it is important to hear what it might be in 2023 year to prepare society because they ask and this is one of the important questions that i wanted to ask so you want me to give an economic forecast and exchange rate for the year it will be completely irresponsible on my part because let me finish you will get the answer yes and because the war unfortunately this is a very dynamic story, when over the course of a week, within days , everything can change very much in one direction or in the other direction. i can say that for the next period of weeks, months, there are no grounds for devaluation of the hryvnia. why? because our international reserves have exceeded 28 billions, in fact, they reached the pre-war

level due to the stable financial support of our partners, we have a fairly good cushion in the balance of payments, let's say, what is the situation in three months there or in six months. let's talk with you in three months, i hope that we will either win or be we are close to victory we will receive a wave of investments in our country and in us this question will not stand, in principle, the concept of your tax reform, which we discussed today, when it will be transformed on the draft law and he will receive well, not only there, the theoretical format of existence will move into the practical plane, what are the time frames for its implementation, see the draft law is almost ready for 70-80 percent. now we are finalizing it, and we will register it in the verkhovna rada after we all let's finish the consultations with our international partners because well, we have to be civilized partners there. and so far we don't have a consensus and you do it your way. well, it

's probably wrong. i still hope that we will find arguments to convince everyone of our international partners that this is really right for the state and right for them, yes , and i think that we will still spend some time to find a final consensus there. position so that we don't have separate opinions, it can take some more time, i don't want to give forecasts for a month, two, three, but we understand that there is this unique period now, when we really have to make these fundamental changes in the economic tax system politics i think that the audience will agree with you and us that we want to wish that everything works out for you this time because we have been waiting for the tax reform since the beginning of the first days of ukraine's independence thank you very much rostyslav shurman night watch see you in ry, don't stay with us the era of nivrok

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