uh, there are mobile phones, there is the internet, there are social networks, there is television, and the whole world sees it and the world understands how evil the russian federation is, because, for example, back in 2008, there weren't so many uh, let's say that video uh, hmm materials, and you remember perfectly how in ukraine , russian aggression was perceived ambiguously, and that is, in principle, a large part sat on russian propaganda and did not perceive it as some kind of atrocity. the war is the most documented and the true face of russia or the grimace of russia is absolutely visible and well here it is absolutely necessary to talk about morality , i am already talking about the orthodox church because it must also be said that it had very little to do with the church even before that after the words of this patriarch, i congratulate you on the fact that the one who died

in this war is actually freed from these sins, which is actually anafia, well, you know, it’s just like that, it’s a bit of a waste of christian teaching. so when you have atone for your sins in order for you to go to heaven, and here you simply follow the instructions of the fuhrer of the russian peace, kill innocent ukrainians and go to heaven, well, that is, let's say it so simply, we see here and there all three of the russian peace. and in principle, you think that russian society is capable of to be honest, i have great doubts, and for me, for example, there was such empirical confirmation, not even the interception of the conversations of the participants with their families, but there was such a long interview, talk to or tell gordeeva

er, such a russian opposition journalist with the leader of soldiers' mothers, and this woman who remembers the times of the soviet invasion of afghanistan, how they protected their sons and their husbands, and she is angry, what she said is that modern mothers are not even ready to go and ask something to lie down at the breast and not save her children or her husbands and i think this is the most important indicator if the mother- mother mother no er-e let's say it does not include the desire to protect the most precious thing she has, it is simply an indicator that society is rotten and something to hope for. something like this cannot be, and the most important thing is that you know that putin created this russia as much as the russians wanted this and such a russia, yes, all restitution, they are poisoned, they

have my greatness and this election. before there was orthodoxy, then communism, now there is a mixture of conservative pseudo - of wholes this is definitely what all these things are. they just show how deeply sick society is definitely sick. there is definitely a small layer that is absolutely different. i would say that they are not russians, they are just people the rest - it's actually hmm, they wo n't be like that, i won't talk about inciting enmity, but of course it's difficult to call them normal people or people who can come to their senses if they understand something, if they see the truth, there is an opportunity to see the truth even if they close the internet or something there is a vpn, of course, there is always critical thinking. you can ask, of course, that in every especially small town, someone

fought, someone died, and ask the question why why? yes, and what about ukraine, for example could be subjugated to the russian federation well, it seems to me that it is very simple to ask such questions thank you mr. oleksandr oleksandr defense strategist on foreign and security policy diplomat advisor to the minister of defense of ukraine we are in touch and will move on to our next guest this is pavlo klimkin diplomat former post foreign affairs of ukraine i congratulate you, sir, but i congratulate you, i congratulate you, mr. vitaly, i want to talk to you about the change of policy. if you want to start with this, this is the kind of publicity because as you can see now, the situation is when you and i are observing such public pressure on the german leaders, let's say why

, when in the first months of the war, ukrainian leaders behaved like that in public, they said what they needed. everyone said, god, this is not possible at all behave in politics politicians love silence you can't achieve anything if you behave like that but now we see president macron making such public gestures president duda makes public gestures with the president's tanks prime minister sumy makes public gestures and all this is aimed directly at the german e-e leaders, while the german ministers themselves talk about a completely different situation . as you can also see that it is necessary to give tanks in spite of the fact that there are still no agreements in the federal clothes itself, why has the quality of political behavior changed so much, i will allow with i disagree with you only on one thing and i don't think that

politics likes silence or it is definitely not the kind of politics that gives results in today's reality. silence and lack of publicity is actually the absence of politics. if there were worked for us for ukraine, but it definitely works for europe now, the second point of the decision on armored vehicles was made earlier, now it was either crowded or crowded, not completely consciously at the beginning, because it gives us additional anger power and maneuver, but also very much a signal to russia will try to raise the rates, we will

raise them higher anyway, and the main thing is that all the talk about the fact that the west can get tired somehow look to the side, they in fact definitely do not work, even in moscow they recognize this and we we know this from our sources, but nevertheless, i agree with you very much that there is some kind of animal fear of putin's regime, it is transforming, it is still present , fear is present, but it is a completely different form of fear, it is felt very well in the road it is felt in berlin it is felt almost in all european capitals i feel it for example vremya very clearly and even vienna among the

austrians they stopped being afraid as they were afraid and now the question is actually what they are more afraid of putin's regime or what will be after him, and this factor actually has a great influence on the mentality of decision -making. nevertheless, the feeling that the putin regime can do almost everything it wants and can raise rates as it wants has largely gone from the mentality of the west thanks to us, of course. less than 10 months plus the wars are starting to wipe it out so much it is very noticeable how this situation will continue do you even hope that germany will really agree to the provision of leopards and will all this be such

a long process like all these processes which i'm almost sure of this. i know that internal discussions have been going on for quite a long time, and these are not discussions that are sufficiently abstract . accepted, it can be accepted with certain benefits, it can be accepted in the near future, it will most likely be a joint decision, a joint western decision, they really want eh in berlin, which is cautious so far , and there will be something like a tank community which for some reason in berlin they like to call it a tank consortium, if it’s consortions, it doesn’t matter

what it’s called. the main thing is that he worked in that, the probability is very, very high regarding the question when i hope that in reality it is very, very not possible, as they sometimes say, cautiously, but in the short term well that's how i feel about the berlin discussions. and what are german politicians really afraid of? they are really afraid that they won't be able to play a role in any discussions about this or the future of russia, that they will lose not just their status . they don't hope for that anymore they have already arrived, but they will not be able to play a leading role in any further discussions, and the second thing they

fear very much is that at some moment russia may go to further escalation, and escalation both in relation to us and raising the stakes in relation to nato, such discussions are modeled when putin realizes that he needs to raise the stakes as much as possible, he will try to check , er, check nato for solidarity. many times if not an order of magnitude less than before but nevertheless such discussions are still not theoretical that is, you mean that russia can strike at the country to become a member absolutely we know for sure that such plans were developed that they exist that such plans do not apply only one or two countries, they are

large enough, and we know for sure that russia, at some point, can raise the rates, or will it raise the rates. by our european allies and it is felt in berlin, it is actually felt in paris, it is felt in other european capitals and they also understand that putin can act in a non-linear way, so to speak, realizing that he can not militarily in any way achieve decisive progress in ukraine, he will somehow switch one degree more , but then tell me what is the logic if we believe

that joining nato is this is the result that will bring security to ukraine and here it turns out that putin is actually ready to fight with nato that it's about security, where it lives, it's actually putin's logic to show that nato is not so united that it can face any threat . i would say that it's actually a couple of years before nato itself. i saw this in the baltic countries and in poland and in other countries, there were quite serious, absolutely not some general, detached from ideal discussions. and what will happen if russia goes ahead? i think that these discussions are now uh, this is how it is expressed, it is absolutely obvious. but nevertheless

, this is another nato and putin is great understands and maybe this is one of the last chances for him to show that nato is not a player who finally got into another league or rather , russia has fallen one league less than such football slangs if now russia loses and it will also lose if ukraine goes to nato and it looks the same, that is, there is a technical side, but nevertheless, the strategic path is absolutely clear. this is what kissinger started saying. by the way, since i am familiar with him, in my opinion, it is the second time in my life that i remember when he admitted his own if you want an error - this is it isn't it the ability of strategic analysis and that's

what he said yes ukraine should be part of the western world yes ukraine should be a member of the eu but you definitely need to wait it's not a question of today tomorrow or the day after tomorrow what he started saying clearly ukraine should formally become a member of nato or informal, more precisely, not or but already now, to be informal or part of the nato space is a fundamental change in position, and this is largely happening in today's strategic thinking and western and by the way, pay special attention to this to non -westerners. and tell me, you are not alarmed by what is happening with the expansion of the date and with the behavior of turkey, with the fact that six months ago we said that sweden and finland would definitely become

members of nato. now there are such questions, i am generally concerned about expansion of nato, and i think that in fact, when we used to have the feeling that we were being hindered by the classic european countries germany and france, which are afraid of russia and so on, now there are three large blocs of countries that we need to talk about first - it's the same usual germany and france is the second point, and what position will the united states take strategically? of course, they are in favor of our nato membership, but the question of when and under what conditions is actually being discussed in washington today, and the american side is taking a somewhat cautious position here. it is

not about strategic membership that emphasizes everything here. just ok. and regarding the questions under what conditions and when. the third is, of course, turkey, because turkey will play its own game and it is obvious . i think that the issue of sweden and finland will be resolved. i think that yevgeny will get what else before presidential elections and in june of next year and will try to make some kind of formal or conceptual agreement regarding what he receives in the near future in the context of nato, this may concern new weapons and many other things, and then in fact finland and sweden are formally join me, there is nothing special about this, but the

model that sweden is currently using, which concerns the signing of a special defense agreement by it and the united states, this can not be the way we can go waiting for a solution to the question of knowing how practical this model is in general, this is a temporary option that can be until the moment of formal accession to nato, it's actually not so much swedish, it's as much well, i don't want to here a sign of comparison, put an equal sign, of course but nevertheless, you and i once discussed this during one project, this is the model of, for example, south korea or japan, where the states have a security agreement, this is an agreement on alliances and the states will help all countries in the event of any attack, it does not replace

membership is also promising, but if the question of when and under what conditions will be resolved, then of course an agreement with the states that actually provides for security guarantees, the second elements of deterrence that nato and its allies will provide us, and the third, the policy of strategic weakening e.e. russia as a result of these agreements as a result of the strategic projection of the entire west and us as part of the west, this can be a temporary solution until the moment of joining nato, this is one of the main decisions that are really being discussed very lively, the americans will actually go for it in washington. as you can see, the mentality is also changing, or it is changing

fast enough, it is difficult for me to say, it will depend on the balance of domestic politics, on the fact that the administration and today, the republicans receive a very powerful, not just bipartisan bipartisan, as they say about freud, but there is also a bilateral consensus of support for ukraine, but you are the one who will be ready to raise it qualitatively. i think that it is enough, it is enough, and mine is actually and i also think that today europe is not the whole europe but nevertheless, part of europe is ready to start a discussion about such an option, well, a few months ago, like you and i, we started a

leopard. remain the same, where in russia they are very active. and tell me, mr. pavlo, in principle, what do you think about the format of the lublin triangle that we saw in lviv these days when president zelensky met with the presidents of dude and dudey novoselda. how effective is this format within the framework of the european union? can it help or hinder us as part of our preparations for european integration? if you really look at it , it certainly does not interfere. in the literal sense. i believe that central europe is exactly and the definition itself

should change when our friends joined the eu other ideas, in fact, what is the current vysegograd format, it actually does not work , or is it internal tensions and discussions there, hungary, the czech republic, poland, slovakia, and i believe that it is necessary to generate a new drive and a new vision of what central europe is and how it will be institutionalized, and why should it be done in this way in order to it was not perceived in such a classical i don't want to say old europe, i don't know how old it is. but in classical europe with such and such caution i would say or even wariness what i

see today in some capitals, in particular in paris and we need to get out of the logic that central europe looks the way it looks now, it definitely wo n't look like that, it's outdated, central europe is actually new. i wouldn't say a geopolitical player, but nevertheless, it's definitely a new player for europe and maybe a new player for of the world, but for this, central europe must be connected by a system of guarantees and a system of security support with key players, first of all, such mine as the states, maybe it will be beaten, maybe it will be definitely expanded the format in which it will not be limited by geography and will include some countries in the region of the pacific and wild oceans, that is, i actually do not exclude any even broad

alliances and coalitions, today the moscow publication kommersant reported that the internal political bloc of the administration of the president of russia, by the way headed by the same serhiy kiriyenko, whom we constantly see in the regions of ukraine occupied by russian will be vladimir putin. what do you think? what should putin's election campaign look like? is it a victory in the war company or a return to peace company? what does putin have to plan for 2024 ? i think that today's russia is not a war prospect with the west, i definitely do not support

it, at least part of the russian elites understand it, it is difficult for me to say there about every group or every plan, but we know that a part understands very much well, now there are calculations and they are sufficiently detailed and relatively reliable that russia has already begun to lose as a result of the introduction of oil price restrictions and as a result of the oil base somewhere around 150-180 million dollars per day exactly on the day and when another ban on petroleum products will be introduced and respectively, two more restrictions on different types of oil products. this amount will grow to 250 plus someone calls the number even 280 if you use school arithmetic

. there will be many tricks to bypass, but the blow will be furious, and if gas restrictions and sanctions are further introduced in relation to the russian nuclear sphere, as well as investments and the mining sphere in general, in fact, russia, from the point of view of its economic model, is going nowhere, and nowhere, that’s for sure. not that putin, er, can offer even inside the country to really hunt down people there, er, you can for a long enough time propaganda works, remember there was a song what was the name of the song, do they want russian wars, yevgeny yevtushenko, it turned out that there are hatyat, it turned out that the majority wants and wants it also turned out to be absolutely sincere that the majority

wants to move forward, it understands itself as a part of the past, not the future , there is no image of the future, so it can be replaced with something and it is necessary to replace it with something common enemies with a common understanding of who is oppressing us there and putin as the only one who, as a result, is the main box of russia, something like the main guard do you remember once, the head of the state thinks in control and said that russia is putin, putin is russia, i think with such logic, kiriyenko will lead putin to the elections. but putin doesn't really have much of options, the first option is somehow to negotiate with the event, and the other option is, as we have already said , how is this again a special question , but nevertheless, he can raise the rates a-a, but

he can raise the rates only and exclusively if he receives direct support eh china's minimum and now it doesn't really look like that for many reasons , that's why i think that putin will have to one way or another not just make concessions, but go for a different understanding of the revolution and the role of russia as a criminal country, a country that cannot be a geopolitical player which cured the nuclear world the weapons are enough, and the perception of the stakes is enough, but i also do not rule out that there are no red lines in his head and he will go to one more or maybe several escalations of escalation, especially with ukraine or

in general eska both with ukraine and in general i emphasize that i do not rule out that putin is ready to come out with some kind of e-e escalator escalator strategy, even outside the borders of ukraine, he actually always had logic if he meets e-e fundamental obstacles, he raises the stakes, this is the first time in 20 years, and realistically, i believe that putin's line on so that ukraine as an independent ukraine in principle did not begin. it began in 2003, when he wanted to put on our heads. if you remember , the idea was a common economic space. but it is about the fact that president kuchma signed the e-e tai

vo killed and successfully killed and the idea of ​​taking away our gts because of the idea of ​​the so-called tripartite consorptive from germany where gazprom wanted to get 51% and goodbye and this is first there a line for clear colonization of ukraine common economic space and get gts as soon as it failed, tuzla appeared and then we all we remember very well there since 2004, actually 20 years ago. it was putin's absolutely consistent line, and now, on the subject, the russians need to make a clear conclusion about where they see themselves and russia in the 23rd year and next thank you thank you mr. pavlo pavlo klimkin diplomat minister of foreign affairs of ukraine 2014-2019