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on the air. saturday political club anzhelika sizonenko and vitaly portnikov. good evening, today is the 332nd day of the full-scale war of russia against ukraine, and in our first block we will traditionally talk about the russian-ukrainian war, in particular, that the director the cia secretly visited kyiv recently, the results of the meeting in the rammstein format, which countries pledged military aid to our state. well, putin ordered completely capture donbass by march, is it possible, we will discuss it now. so, our first guest is andrii yutsov, a representative of the press service of the main intelligence directorate of the ministry of defense of ukraine. we congratulate mr. andrii, but there is no mr. andrii. well, we will consider why he was

congratulated . and we are waiting for him. rammstein, everyone was expecting mainly leopard 2 tanks from germany. however, they did not reach this decision, and the german minister of defense said that they say they can give everything - from chancellor schultz how do you do you think there will be any success in the future or will this issue be blocked? in my opinion, i don’t really think so. i believe that in general some issues can be blocked. we see here a simple logic in the west, such a logic that there is no need to bring russia to any kind of escalation, but to be honest, it's not very clear to me that it's always in that situation. and what does folding mean? well, really, you and i also have to understand that western countries have given such a large number of weapons to ukraine , including weapons that allow us to destroy russian troops there. and eventually implement offensive actions to repulse the kharkiv region, the

kherson region, why should the leopard cause such a hysterical reaction? well, what can happen as a result? well, some other regions of russia will lose donetsk, luhansk, or kherson regions. that is where they lost. that is, where is this degree of escalation after which, well, nothing no, it can't be solved . well, i honestly can't understand this. i can understand that the federal chancellor himself is somehow trying to get between the droplets of those of his associates who believe that it is necessary to act more carefully and keep the opportunity for negotiations with russia for those of his advisers who believe that it is necessary to act more radically, and thus he does not close the issue of leopards, but he does not give them away, and in the united states, by the way, we also observe the same tactics in many people, we must be so careful but i always want to ask: what? what else can happen? i just wanted to

understand this is an important question. well, we are also adults. we know perfectly well what we are talking about. a nuclear strike can happen. yes, but the question arises, and they understand exactly when putin really wants to carry out a nuclear attack. it is definitely related to the leopards. why not these light tanks. why not some other weapons? about western weapons and about some of your own absolutes , we already have another marking andrii yusu p andrii i congratulate you knife maybe you can explain to us the logic of the leopard where there is a shortage of leopards p andrii they heard good evening i congratulate you please i say maybe you can explain to us you see the logic of the undersupply of leopards, mr.

andrii, there are problems with communication. so, i have one more question for you, mr. vitaly. are there more arguments against? precisely because of political will. i believe that it is because of political will because i do not believe in any arguments because of the guilt complex because i never understood why one part of the soviet union should have a legal complex and in front of the other part of the soviet union, there is no complex, the heaviest battles in the end and here a huge number of civilians were destroyed. it was here that practically the whole of ukraine was the arena of the war for the territory of the russian federation, so it is not said that the republics in the soviet union are why russians are considered superior. well, that's why that the soviet union was accepted by russia, it was russia, by and large it was russia with the

annexed territory. part is better than this part, why before this part ? you need to have some kind of guilt complex before this part. you don’t need to have a guilt complex before this part. i think that this is absolutely such a strange approach, because i repeat again that it is not surprising that timutym once called the territory of ukraine belarus . we opened the baltic lands with what happened here . during both world wars it is indescribable it was a tragedy upon a tragedy crime followed by crime mass death of the civilian population which, by the way, continued as you know in the ukrainian case and after the world wars after the civil war yes called on the territory of the future soviet union and after the russian-ukrainian war for independence. that is, it was all like that, and i think that we cannot say that we can divide something here, because they will see german tanks on russian

soil after the second world war, then they will not see russian replacements russian and land there are no times over german yes well, let’s go on the ukrainian land on the land where did the aggressor go, i am hitler and we will defend ourselves here, no one will be there to iron further, if not, it will not be in this i also have a question, you understand, because i see this situation precisely as a situation related to the social democrats, because recently there was a conference of the social democratic party of germany, where again all the words must to leave space for negotiations, we must do everything possible so that, er, russia could still go on some kind of track with ukraine, it is necessary, it is necessary , everything is necessary, and such a simple question arises. road to i simply don't believe in victory, but by the

way, it doesn't seem to be stoltenberg, if i'm not mistaken, i made a statement that ukraine was given so many weapons that it will be enough not only for defense but also for offensive well, let's hope, but again, i'm like us do we want to see this offensive as an effective one that will quickly end this entire war at least this year, or as an offensive that will be stretched over time for 2-3 years, it is obvious that every year of war for ukraine is economic loss - it is human loss, it is, by the way, demographic the disaster is quite serious, and we must also remember this because people simply, if the war continues for several years, they will not return to the country, let's return to andrii forest, mr. andrii, you can hear us. good evening. i apologize for the technical inconvenience. well, let's still turn to you yourself understand the logic of supplying leopards, leopards will be, but

the public submission of this decision, well, it is still being discussed . in fact, such huge tectonic steps have taken place, and what changes in the understanding of the situation in ukraine, the situation of perception by russia and, in principle, the readiness to help ukraine, in particular, what we see now in terms of help , let's say from the point of view of anti-aircraft missile defense and armored vehicles, well, that 's it a breakthrough in itself, and we did not see the final announcement of a public decision regarding the tanks. but i think that a consensus has already been formed and, well, let's say the general position regarding the need for the victory of ukraine has already been formed. and for this, tanks are definitely needed and in particular, leopards 2 this is probably reinforced by the fact that they will teach our servicemen how to

use leopards correctly, despite the fact that there is supposedly no solution yet, true mr. andrii yes, we see well, this is such a strange story , in fact, european diplomacy is, in historical retrospect, it has always not been like that simple, easy perception. there were many different readings, it is ambiguous, but in this situation, we are primarily interested in the result, and i think that we can count on the fact that this consensus is already there are and the results will be accordingly, well, but this does not mean that ukraine should weaken its diplomatic efforts. well, definitely , no one is going to not make efforts on this front and weaken, that is, the pressure of ukraine and friends of ukraine from the point of view of the need for direct support, including the provision of tanks, it is appropriate what poland and the baltic countries continue to do today, in particular, this is really help that is needed, but in general, i am an optimist,

i think that everything will be fine in this regard, and in the near future. and tell mr. andriy in the main directorate of intelligence says that general gerasim was instructed to take the donbass , that is, to enter the administrative borders of the luhansk and donetsk regions by march of this year. well, here’s spitting like this. and what will happen if he doesn’t fulfill putin’s task? it’s a very interesting question and many of his people personally put uh and in fact there is no clear answer here because in principle the decision to appoint gerasimov as responsible for the war in ukraine or the so-called war in ukraine is a dead end decision well, because it is the maximum the level of leadership and command that putin could put in front of himself well, well, if there is no gerasimo, who will be next, well, will putin personally lead the er-e zeki prigozhina in the ukrainian donbas, so there is a question of a chasm and a chasm that will also mean

a crisis within the team and many other processes, well, hints of which we can already see . yes, these public discussions are quarrels among putin's friends. well, we can already observe, but gerasimov is here in this situation a person who is simply appointed as a goat. by the way, regarding gas interestingly, they replaced him instead of this rovikin and said that well, he did not cope, there were failures at the front and also the ineffective use of missiles, they say that the energy infrastructure of ukraine is not so strong there and suffered as russia wanted, but it changed as some scenarios changed. when gerasimov began to lead, there are a lot of analogies, uh, rightly so, lately all leading experts and analysts have been using the third wave, that is, before the defeat of hitler himself in 1945. well, hitler was always historically dissatisfied with his generals

considered them weak, stupid, and surrendered, but as a result, it was he who was weak, because in reality he was serious, well, they can thank him for the fact that he saved the russian army from kherson and organized a sufficiently competent and relatively retreat, that some crazy tasks on the other side were not completed war in ukraine, they could not be carried out, this is something that the russian army is simply unable to do. whatever non-human terrorist methods it uses, well, in particular, it is usually meant rocket attacks, and here really it exhausted the missile potential to a considerable extent, especially if we are talking about modern high-precision weapons in general, of course, from the moment of its appointment, there were no significant changes. well, apart from the fact that high-precision missiles began to be used more cautiously, this means more inaccurate attacks on selective attacks, terrorist attacks on the civilian

infrastructure of ukraine. but in the end, globally, it will not affect the uh final sad final and russia and their hordes and the rudin army. what do you think, mr. andriy, in principle how realistic is such a mobilization in russia, which will be announced publicly, this is not a hidden mobilization, the attack is a mobilization that we saw a few months ago, when president putin himself announced the beginning of the speech, andrii a little, a little, i asked about the extent to which you think it is possible to mobilize publicly, not hiding it now this is possible because, well, if i don’t hold back, the regime falls and then every subsequent decision is worse than the previous one. in fact, you are absolutely right, the mobilization continues and now it has not stopped with us, but what

uh, i will continue. well, deadlock both at the front and inside the country, in order to save one's own reputation, strengthening control in the situation of control inside the country. well, and attempts to level the situation at the front, yes, mobilization is what russian society is waiting for, that is, more than two hundred russians will return at home well, for now, it suits them, so why not announce a new wave of mobilization, especially since ideological preparation, propaganda preparation is in full swing, an analogy with a new great national war is a war, as it were, not with ukraine and with all of nato, well, and many other delusions, this is done in particular in order to prepare the already definitely russian population, well, in particular, for a new wave of public full mobilization regarding the visit of cia director william burns to kyiv, the

secret visit of mr. andriy. he visited our country and in particular, he had a conversation with president zelensky in october and november, but for some reason it was this visit that caused concern , and some foreign publications write that burns allegedly emphasized the urgency of the moment on the battlefield and admitted that at some point it will be more difficult to get help to ukraine, but what urgency is meant? does this mean an escalation in the donbass, or in general another full-scale offensive, an attempt to take kyiv? well, first of all, we must come to terms with the fact that the secret visit is secret so that its details are not disclosed now and if there were disclosures, it was probably already after the victory. but if we talk about the urgency of the moment, then there is no secret here, this is the public position of many world leaders and or even representatives of the ukrainian government about what is happening now the key period and the turning point

of the war of ukraine and ukraine for independence is approaching, and so the coming months are precisely the period when ukraine must make maximum efforts. and this means having the maximum means and forces for the deoccupation of its own territories. of course, in the preparation for these key events , maximum diplomatic activity, exchange of information, activity at the level of the special services of the governments of the countries. that is, this is a sign that ukraine is included in collective security at the closest level, and in fact, these are good indicators, the very fact of such a visit today, as well as other low-level visits, these are definitely good signs for ukraine, mr. andrii, in principle, how do you allow offensives from both sides now, ukrainian offensives, russian offensives, how they might look

in the spring, uh, they will look from the russian side like an actual attack by the horde, that is, the army of the previous generation, which has serious problems with the provision and coordination of training, in particular with equipment and ammunition, but there is a large number of personnel, and fighting in numbers is what we saw now, for example, on the example of solidar, for example well, this is the tactic of the butcher zhukov, which, well , the modern modern sound and that is, harsh, we brought in gerasimov and so on, and instead, from the side of ukraine, every week we see that the ukrainian army is actually becoming stronger from the point of view of personnel training composition from the point of view of technical equipment and new weapons, even when we talk about tanks that will appear in the near future, we

are not discussing even the leopard 1, but we are actually discussing the leopard-2 tanks, well , let's say what we are talking about last year they were even afraid to think, that is why the ukrainian army will be more trained, more prepared and more armed for these events. mr. andrii , at the end of our conversation, there is still a topic that is hotly discussed . in march 2022, but he was also killed allegedly as a russian spy, but in the end he was awarded the hero of ukraine and buried in the fictional cemetery as a hero directly, and he allegedly passed on some important data to the supreme commander before a full-scale invasion, although the same publication also in the island itself with reference to william burns wrote that there would be a full-scale invasion and wrote that

they would try to seize the antonov airfield in gostomel, that is, the same theses that now they are talking about kireyev, is he a hero of ukraine or is he a russian twine? sorry , we are talking with you about facts for now, facts. it is that kiriev was an employee of the main intelligence department of the ministry of defense of ukraine and carried out the relevant tasks and died under uh certain circumstances uh who killed him well the investigation is ongoing we will get these answers i hope in the near future objective impartial but the fact that he was killed and it caused significant damage to interests of ukraine and defense capability and could disrupt a certain number of subsequent operations, plans and ideas for the protection of ukraine's national defense and national security. i think that this is unfortunately an unfortunate fact.

we will understand about the information that he passed on. yes, we all read this interview. i would like to clarify that it is not about what he said about the fact of the attack and, er, what he only said. no, intelligence always relies on different sources and on different information but there are such details of the future attack, there are such details of the enemy's plan, the exposure and preparation of some allows you to actually break this plan, and it was finally done . made thanks to one of the gurmo officers i think that we all have reason to believe that this is exactly what happened thank you mr. andrii andrii ivanovich representative of the press service of the main intelligence department of the ministry of defense of ukraine we will continue our conversation now literally in a few minutes with the next guest

ago that there are many important topics. in particular , we will discuss this year's. it is always such an important event where your entire political establishment from many countries of the world gathers. vitaliy, how did he stand out for you this year? i will tell you what. well, what all these ukrainian topics were always on the sidelines here, where there were some special events to organize dedicated to ukraine, because at the center of davol's agenda was anything but definitely not ukraine. and now ukraine is at the center of the discussion . the war depends on the world order and the economic development of the civilized world depends on it and it depends on whether international law will really triumph or it will be replaced by the law of force, you understand, by the way, i would like to it would be better if we were somewhere on the sidelines in some small house

where someone was there financing. they came for breakfast or dinner. they said, oh, everything is beautiful , but alas, alas, now how much we manage to win and win depends on the color and cuteness of the representative of the president of ukraine in the autonomous republic we have crimea on the line, congratulations, ladies, and a video of how you and i will try to understand to what extent crimea remains on the agenda of such a world discussion of the future outcome of the war, i will not say that crimea echoed in davos very exactly, but during the breakfast of the annual event, which is organized in davos by the ukrainian side , at the question of the leading moderator, the president of ukraine actually spoke about it, other leaders, including

former officials there, who participated in panel discussions, including in panel discussions in the ukrainian house, in informal certain communications, i will not say that i followed all the events that took place in the crimea, but to a certain extent. of the importance of non-repetition. well, according to the peace formula proposed by president zelenskyi, ms. tamil, it is clear that the issue of crimea is not so actively discussed in the ukrainian information space because we have more and more annexed territory temporarily occupied by russia and a full-scale war is ongoing however, it seems to me that now is the time to talk about reintegration, and the peninsula, for example, tomorrow we will be provided

with enough military weapons, which, by the way, is already being discussed in the biden administration so that in including freeing crimea from the russian occupiers. and tomorrow, what will we do with those people who have completely different attitudes and spent nine years in russian propaganda ? crimea in general is actually on the agenda after kherson, after kharkov and the victorious actions of the armed forces of ukraine. i write about it a lot and try to respond to it. information about crimea appears in the western media, but we really started to see it after kherson, and in fact in most in the western media, we see on the one hand such surprise at the victorious actions of the ukrainian

armed forces, on the other hand, certain concerns that they are beginning to claim that crimea will be taken away, as it were, and there will be a lot of blood, that there will be a reaction from the side of putin and he can use nuclear weapons tactically, there are certain russian narratives that certain experts are beginning to repeat, that crimea, which you always know in belarusian, and that's actually what i'm talking about is that there is not so much information about crimea in the western media, and it's just that something you know, these narratives, which well-known experts are starting to broadcast, are distorted, and we need to look for counternarratives, and we are trying to do this. if we are to answer your questions, the state is really working

on a reintegration measure. regarding issues of responsibility, in accordance with the issue of the place of illustration, issues related to property rights, issues related to russians and citizens illegally residing on the territory of crimea, including issues that we e economic recovery of crimea and we prepared such a vision document in the summer at the end of the summer and already this year we plan to work on it in more detail, including with the involvement of our partners and even signing memorandums of cooperation regarding the future recovery of crimea please tell me in principle as far as we can now talk about the fact that in addition to getting rid of this sacredness after the accession of four more ukrainian regions what can you understand that this is a completely different story if you want from the earth

sacred it's just a desire to occupy everything vitaliy thank you very much, in fact, they agree with you because very often when they comment on the reaction of the russian federation to the military return of control over crimea, they start talking about really appealing to the acquisition and use of tactical nuclear weapons, but in fact, what prevents vladimir putin from using them right now when we carry out operations to liberate other territories, including a part of the region, i actually talk about this and say that there is no difference at all, and crimea is included as well as kherson zaporizhzhya donetsk and luhansk regions as early subjects of the russian federation are in the constitution and that is why we say that if he wanted to do it