[000:00:00;00] real, serious catastrophe, to what extent do you generally think that urban can analyze the situation realistically, do you think that in his words, when he says that putin will not back down, that he needs to win the elections , there is some kind of reaction, you and i also understand that russia has definitely not given up any of its plans at the moment and in ukraine, they don't have any other, the goal hasn't changed to destroy us as a people, to destroy us as a state, to destroy us as a society that has its own future and your own future is different from apiary russian federation well, maybe you know in any approach to any position always has a part of the truth. well, in this respect , and then he will not retreat until he, like me

, receives a defeat, like me, he is weakened so much that he cannot conduct further military actions and attack, but this means that it is necessary act and it is necessary to act in unison in this free world, but orban, with his own imaginations, unfortunately turns everything upside down and tries to make light of what they say is possible, we need to look at this problem differently and instead of giving weapons to ukraine to act in some other ways and to seek an understanding with the dictator, a terrorist and an aggressor, and you don’t think that he is simply worried that nuclear energy may be russian under sanctions, it is with them some of his own calculations regarding nuclear

cooperation to ensure his business interests with putin due to the avoidance of general sanctions that applied to both oil and gas, and i suspect that this method is an additional type of blackmail. limitations for cooperation in nuclear energy to what extent now it is possible to talk about a change in the mood of the international community, what do you think is happening today in international organizations to what extent can we talk about the fact that everyone understands that playing with russia is a long game well, there are various international organizations and e- different moods and different public moods, politics, we and on different continents, even so, you can

probably say somewhere, uh, countries for themselves, the vast majority, uh, define the future differently and therefore, it is too early to talk about a general trend and a clear understanding of how these or other international organizations will develop at the moment, but there is definitely an undermining of trust in the ability of international organizations to solve the problems they were created and called to solve and to ensure that those problems will either not arise there or will be resolved when they do arise, and this definitely applies to a large number of international organizations, starting with issues related to the structure and architecture of the organization of the united nations. what do you think about the organization

of the united nations, to what extent can you think that russia is capable of playing a constructive role? what do you mean? we just heard the statement of the president of serbia, aleksandr, whether he is ready to compromise on kosovo. and that both countries will not interfere with each other's accession to international organizations, that serbia will not be against kosovo's accession to the united nations, or do you believe that russia will not block this accession? we have this one a problem when a country with its own personal agenda and an aggressive agenda, which is already recognized by half of the world as an aggressor country, a terrorist country , etc., has a critically important role, the right of veto in the security council of the united nations

, that is exactly what i had and in mind when i spoke about the fact that there are questions about the architecture of the only global organization we have that arose after the second world war , as far as you can see now that there are any chances of real punishment for russia, what do you think about this controversy over tribunals that is happening now in the hybrid term project that the minister of foreign affairs of germany anna lena berkova says what is the international tribunal that other european politicians are proposing to create, what is the meaning of the field , what is it supposed to lead to, i think that there is a growing awareness that russia must be punished and the method of punishment. unfortunately , the methods of punishing the country for war crimes and crimes against humanity and against and crimes of aggression and the crime of genocide, and they currently

have certain limitations, in particular regarding punishing the country for the crime of aggression and this requires, well, some additional creation of additional mechanisms. i think that this process of realizing that we will have to create this special tribunal and we see that there is already some kind of political support, well, at least at the level of the european union, this support was voiced by the european parliament at the level of the council of europe , also these days, a response was adopted to the resolution that individual countries will be forced to create this special tribunal, of course , ideally, such a tribunal should be created perhaps at the level of the decision of the general assembly of the united nations and this, well, it would be about the world's awareness of good and evil and the black and white war

that russia is waging today against ukraine and against of the free world, but this path is quite complicated , this path, unfortunately, does not look realistic at the moment , and therefore there is this. tribunals no no will appear. i think that these people will always be here, and the moral side of the matter is also very important, and i would agree with you . i may not even agree, we do not know how this war will develop. of course, it is possible that some people

sees our victory in the form of the ukrainian flag over the kremlin. it is probably another victory that we have that we will get and but we do not know and this war will develop and maybe some of those people who are involved in these key decisions may end up on the dock for a special tribunal, but from a moral point of view, they will be forced to hide all their lives and have nowhere to go if they are punished through a special tribunal, and if they are convicted through a special tribunal, they will not have the opportunity to continue their lives as they it was foreseen, it is also possible well , you know, they say that they are already determined , they do not want to have anything to do with the civilized world at all, you see putin , all his like-minded people, all these russian leaders they all limited themselves to the world

they are happy to meet . of decisions, the sanctions that have already been adopted, in particular, in relation to individual sanctions , but not only in relation to the approvers of these or other decisions, but also to a large , large circle of a wide circle of their families, this is one of those steps that can force them. patelni a-ah are not ready to accept this, how do they think that they have accepted this reality of this world, to isolate themselves, to isolate themselves , i don’t think they are interested in their

children or their families continuing their lives there, let’s say in north korea or iran, well obviously yes, but if i have a choice between life in prison, imprisonment between life in tehran and what to do here. well then, let them choose tehran and enjoy life there without any, without any opportunities of the system, this is also a certain type of imprisonment and it is also necessary understand, and this is also a type of punishment, well, again, i wanted these people to be punished by the fact that they can go simply to the east and to the west. and with some real punishment, how can we make russia become part of a civilized education and be ready to hand these people over to international justice as let's say serbia did, and i think that this is a matter of a strong defeat of russia. if russia is really

defeated in this war, if it is only weakened that it will not be able to launch any other attack on any corner of the world if it will be deprived of the resource to restore itself in this effort to restore its empire and attack again. this may also lead to the fact that the russian leadership will be extradited to such a court. thank you mrs. ivanna ivana klymposhtytsati sensat from deputies of the verkhovna rada of ukraine head of the committee on european integration now we will move from these international european issues to the discussion of issues related to american politics without connecting with our next guest, professor

igor eisberg, a professor of the new york congratulations to the university , mr. ihor. congratulations to all the viewers. espresso congratulations . it will be the first and the second because of course it will be symbolic to show that the united states considers it very important then the anniversary of the full-scale invasion of russia and uh and to emphasize the support of ukraine and from a practical point of view it will also be very important because uh it's very important to maintain unity between the united states and the main european allies and that's why such and such trips even if they are symbolic in nature first of all

they are really important from a political point of view well i mean or do you think do you think that president baidat will announce something so important in europe related to the support of ukraine. it is quite possible that he can announce a new aid package, because this package is announced once every few weeks. well, it can be used i think that he can meet with the president of ukraine, but i think that it is unlikely that he will go to ukraine, because simply because of the very strict protocols of the american secret service, which protects the president , according to these protocols, the president is forbidden to ride the train, and let's say he likes to ride to his home in delevera. he really, really liked to travel by train when he was a senator . now he is not allowed to do that, so he can only fly by plane, but he can meet

zelenskyi in poland, maybe he can come probably on the border of poland with ukraine, it was also symbolic and important from a political point of view and of course that he can announce a new aid package especially since before bogdan can make this trip to europe there will probably be another rammstein and another conference of this groups and it is quite possible that an agreement will be reached on the next significant stage of aid in ukraine . what do you think, mr. igor, why is this plan of strategic surveillance needed with the help of this is an attempt to get ahead of the claims republicans from the administration and yes and no, i think that supervision is not always necessary because you need to look where the money

is excluded, this applies not only to ukraine well , what to act like this understands that there is such a global understanding, first of all, ukrainians will have to have corruption in ukraine, that is actually why that corruption is everywhere in any country somewhere and less somewhere and more because how budget funds are spent it is necessary to look after this . this is just such an audit of how budget funds are spent. if something is being spent somewhere wrong, right away, this office is the office management for you, that is, the budget for you is a quail house, which does exactly the same on its part. well, of course. it is quite natural that the united states wants to monitor how the funds that

were, say, transferred to the ukrainian budget are spent . and what is being done. what exactly is being done with the weapons that are transferred to ukraine? more control over the use of aid, and so-and-so said that these are steps towards the republicans so that when it is necessary to make a decision on new aid to ukraine, so that they will from the decision to adopt what do you think about the words of victoria nuland that sanctions against russia can be weakened if they do not get out of ukraine, uh, tell her in the congress how serious this statement is, i think that it is not a failure of her statement, because uh, well, it was not successful from all points

of view, because today it is necessary to say no about what will happen when what will be done about russia when it leaves ukraine, and it is necessary to get it out of ukraine first of all, that is, it is necessary for the armed forces of ukraine to be able to win a military victory so that the russian armed forces are on the ukrainian sovereign territory, including crimea, of course, and then from the united states, other western countries must decide what it will do with regard to russia. i think that this statement is very premature and well, no, no, no, it did not succeed, let's say about the... is mrs. mrs. nuland, i don't know why she said that, er, you were not just me, i think that

this is not an illegal, illegal issue, but in principle, if we talk about what the united states can realistically offer to moscow today in exchange for the cessation of wars, let's imagine what russia really wanted to end the war, well, and well, i think that in this case, the united states could really offer a reduction in sanctions pressure or a gradual lifting of sanctions if russia fulfills certain very important conditions for ending the war war, let's say if, if, well, let's assume that russia would agree to stop shooting, because without a frozen conflict, on the front line that exists today , the united states of america cannot and should not offer russia anything for that, if we

imagine that such a thing could happen, that's why -e for e-e i would say that the united states could offer russia something, god willing, on the fulfillment of certain strict strict conditions, not as it was after the collapse of the soviet union, the united states and the west in general add to russia a lot of things in exchange for, well, actually, only for the property of the hope that russia will become a civilized country , it turned out that we see something with you what came out of this from the end and tell pada igor and here is how you evaluate this position according to abrams, why in general in your opinion, why did this happen to russia? russia, in principle , which inhibited all these decisions related to tanks , did not achieve anything, but the united states

did not know for a long time whether to give them the abrams or not and went for it as much as it played here the main role. i think that the main reasons are the first political, because the coalition of states believed that it was necessary for ukraine to receive leopard tanks, and why? why? it was repeated by american generals, let's say, retired generals, such as i went with kämerling very recently to an interview that abram tanks are much more complicated in their operation and require much more complex logistics, e.e., ensuring training

engineering and technical personnel, in addition to the training of tankers who will be used, this all takes a very long time, and the united states believed that it was necessary for ukraine to receive modern tanks as soon as possible, and since the question was that germany, despite many negotiations, did not agree to provide permission to other countries to transfer leopards to ukraine, nor to transfer ukraine's own leopards , was conditioned by the fact that the united states should transfer abram tanks, or was it a political component, that is, the united states agreed to this precisely in order to ensure that germany would hand over the leopard to ukraine, it was held that other countries would hand over the leopard to ukraine, this is on the one hand , on the other hand, there is another component er-er , by the way, yesterday er-er at the briefing er-er what happened

before the day before yesterday, for example, in the white house, the coordinator of the national security council, retired admiral john kerbet, said that abrams tanks are expensive here, besides all this , it takes time to train crews, prepare logistics chains, and train engineering and technical personnel, they themselves they are very expensive and vpetron believes that it cannot hand over to ukraine or any other foreign country those abrams tanks that are on the bases of the pentagon, on the storage bases there, it is possible, like several thousand abrams tanks with raw modifications, but the united states believes that it is inappropriate take these tanks, repair them and transfer them to ukraine because they are no longer modern

, on the one hand, on the other hand, again , it will be a lot of money that will need to be invested in their preparation for the handover. question in a different way. you decided to buy new tanks of the latest modification, e.e., abramsend-12. that is, it will be 31 of the so-purchased manufacturer, e.e., a version of 400-400 million dollars . that is, it is not cheap, so the united states is constantly one of the factors, so what there are financial opportunities, and what can be transferred to ukraine so that it does not spend all the money, but that ukrainians use it as quickly as possible, so i think that the solution consists of several of several such compromises, but i think it is important that abrams, who is endless in ukraine will appear because i just saw leopards appear because everything is an important step to the transition of ukraine to nato weapons

to the main tanks used by nato countries, this is actually a step for ukraine to join nato because this is the step step by step, step by step, ukraine will approach nato from different sides. that is, it is a very good component of this tank solution, again, the unity of the allies, because it is john maidan that is considered very important, we can be the most important, and it is so it is because the united states wanted to save, that is, it was a collective decision, but there was nothing on the day when a man announced the transfer of abrams and when germany announced the transfer, but guys, there was a conversation between biden schulz and straw macron, melody , that is, between the leaders of the main countries of nato and the main countries that supply ukraine

with weapons. do you believe that the same unity of allies will exist when it comes to planes, or will it be more difficult, maybe it will be more difficult, but look , it was also difficult with tanks, that is, the situation is the same changes er and the problem with planes is clear that it will be necessary to solve er just your artery half an hour ago i was listening very, very well i did not explain why because ukrainian planes wear out of course ukraine lost us in planes when they were returning from this fighters one way or another , this problem must be solved, and it was not solved in one or two days, or in 1-2 months, this is a problem many months ago, it must be solved

. something says now the minister of defense of germany in history, do you remember when the full-scale invasion began, he said that germany will not supply weapons to ukraine because germany does not supply weapons to the conflict zone, this is changing, the world does not stand still depending on what is happening, everything it changes, look when things like this happen, for example, in dnipro two weeks ago, when the whole world sees simple people, ordinary people see on their tv screens for days in a row, they see a destroyed house ukrainians who suffer from this are just voters of western countries, on whom western governments depend, they can demand something from their governments because, er, they can

demand that it stop as soon as possible , stop as if ukraine wins something not so that russia wins something was some kind of it is a draw because the mood of the majority of society is on the side of ukraine , and then, please tell me why then president trump will talk about the fact that this war must be ended as soon as possible, he knows what to finish he has a recipe well, i think that he will have a discussion about ending aid to ukraine, meeting with putin, er , shaking his hand, he was already enjoying it, that was his goal, well, one of the main strengths of his presidency is to discuss world problems with putin share share with him the world , well, look, trump represents represents the far-right point of view about rights

from the point of view that the world should be similar to putin's russia uh , the american far-right, they were very happy arrange for the united states through putin's russia, how is she a former director of russian affairs in the case of us national security during trump's time, as we wrote in our book when she worked in may in the white house, trump asked many times if i could looks like putin well, maybe i will, i can be like putin . that is, until now he was worried about being like a guy. well, there is such a point of view, but with uh, everything among people who have such ultra-right, very right-wing political beliefs , but such people are not the majority

of the united states and many, but it will be inflicted on the majority. i also want to refer to the discussion that victoria nuland took part in during the hearing of the sonata committee on international relations. this is the issue of corruption. when the sanatorium merkel said that he was worried because he is a democrat, that corruption will be for ukraine , it can be to a certain extent alcohol oncology that eats up the support they need from the whole world they are fighting in the war, anti-corruption steps, including corporate governance and judicial reform, were moving forward and that personnel changes in kyiv give a signal to those who are trying to disrupt the military efforts of the ukrainian government itself, what do you think now , these are all the facts of the corrupt use that we know that led associated with the current ukrainian government can affect the support of ukraine, in particular in the american congress, they

have a negative effect. this is absolutely undeniable , because as soon as something is published about corruption in ukraine, it immediately hits the the first column connection, let's say about such newspapers as the universality of such tv channels, and if you and i look at what they asked about, the fact that not a single carp was asked at the briefing the day before yesterday in the white house after the emphasis on the transfer of tanks to ukraine, the first question was not about tanks at all just about corruption cases in ukraine, does it not concern some kind of american aid in ukraine? that is, of course, journalists . all interested society is interested in this, therefore any corruption facts are indicated negative, but uh, at the beginning of our conversation today, i said that corruption is everywhere, somewhere, it is more of a monument, what