[000:00:00;00] new, wide, noisy avenues, the smell of coffee in the morning in the cafe near the house, i love my family, i respect my neighbors, i love children's laughter on the playground in the park, i am not tired of watching the monitor carefully , because this is my city, it's hard to stay focused when you haven't slept for the third day, it's hard, but it's worth it, you should take t2 today, your the tuner does not receive all ukrainian channels to configure the reception of channels on the tuner or tv remote control press the menu button, enter the settings menu, select the item auto search , scan and press the ok button to

save the search results if you if you need help, go to the site or contact the telemasters in your region. congratulations, this is the program cultural instinct for public culture. my name is sofia chelyak, and today we will talk with an expert in long-term strategies, the founders of the analytical center promova, as well as members of the district council of public broadcasting yevhena hlyubovytskyi yevhena greetings we would like to start this conversation with a more general and global issue, but actually here your competences are very interesting, you have been watching ukraine for its development since about the 10s years actively and uh, like a big war

that started this year on february 24 , they changed the ukrainians and uh, what stage did we go to after the start of a full-scale invasion? well, i have been professionally observing since the mid-90s. in analytics and work with such a professional observation of changes in ukrainian culture since 2007, that is, even before the financial crisis, and i think that we had a whole wave of changes that were actually the maturation of subjectivity that took shape on the maidan during revolution of dignity and in fact for me countdown to the independence of ukraine - this is a countdown from the 14th year in 1991, on august 24, the ukrainian political elites were able to do what the ukrainian people mainly accuse them of

not being able to do, they were far-sighted, they were able to come to an agreement among themselves, they saw a window of opportunity and they they entered this window, that is, they created a shell, but they obviously did not have control over the social contract that was in place in ukraine at that time, and this social contract consists in the fact that ukrainians who, in two referendums they voted three times in different ways. where were the questions: do they want to preserve the renewed soviet union, do they want some separate status for ukraine in this renewed soviet union, and do they want to cancel the soviet union went independent, but in essence they showed the same will on the preservation of the same social contract, where they basically said that we want a ternary social contract in which, in exchange for social guarantees, society remains passive, and

therefore, it is an absolutely logical choice the president of the former leader of the central committee of the communist party of ukraine in 1991, and in fact from 1991 to 2014, ukraine carried out this veterinary social contract , which was obviously impossible to implement accordingly social guarantees there wasn't, and uh, this grassroots subjectivity began to manifest itself, and already in the 14th year , this subjectivity, this independence, it reached a critical mass, and in fact, i would say that in the 14th year, the shell and content and filling of the form and and content e-e have achieved a certain harmony among themselves ukraine becomes virtually independent and

at that moment, we get our war for independence in the form of the annexation of crimea, an attack on donbas, and accordingly, this war smoulders until february 24, 2022, when this large-scale offensive simply dispelled the last doubts. if we talk about the situation before 2014 and passivity so of the general mass of society, how is this passivity playing into the hands of russia? i remember very well the posts about the activities of the speech in 2008, when the attack on georgia happened, you actually opened a center , which media center helped to spread information from georgian georgian from the point of view and not from the russian e-e narratives as our media actively used , that is, judging from this fact and from this history , we can understand that the ukrainians were very convenient for them to support russia only

because of the concept of convenience and only because of e-e that it was some kind of great ally. i would say that it is more likely due to habit as well as due to er-e certain such solidity er-e traditional subjectivity when we did this all the time well then it is now 2008 and the er-e russian georgian war it was absolutely time schizophrenic texts on uh -uh ukrainian uh-uh websites of the media there, television stories, radio and so on because and in general, ukrainian uh-uh ukrainian society supported the georgians and , accordingly, the media was also inclined to the fact that uh-uh, the side for which there is sympathy is

georgia, but actually all the sources were russian, and it got to the point where there appeared texts like that , it means russian peacekeepers there, it means they met fierce resistance from georgian militants there and so on and so on and so on. it was a direct result of copying there of the pre-determined tape ru there or else from somewhere eh because because it is so easier in fact it was a point eh that i would say eh can be compared to the fact that a small child who does not understand what he is doing just drags everything to the end and exactly so at the same time, it was reported to a large part of the ukrainian media. i remember that when we made a report in which we simply put it all in plain sight on this whole situation. we even received an indignant reaction from part of the ukrainian nationalist spectrum

that we were without due respect we relate to the effort ukrainian media people, that is, and accordingly, this is, well, that is, self-affirmation, which precedes self -awareness , and of course, a lot has changed since then. to what extent does it resist getting into some political-technological and so on and so on of course we can never be 100% sure that what we see is not what we consume a product means some kind of information technology, but we are much more literate, and accordingly, this means that in order to mislead ukrainian society now , a fantastic concentration of resources, money, talent

, efforts, etc., etc. and so on . e-e variable yes e-e had global education and prio-political priorities, i.e. will the example of a colonized country that stands against its aggressor become a conditional inspiration for other postcolonial countries and also what we for example, we can now observe the protests in iran and, let's say, china, draw a parallel and say that probably the struggle of the ukrainians became one of the impulses or a source of inspiration for these protests to begin well, i would not overestimate the influence of ukraine and the world now although if for example, to listen to the lectures of those snyders and rytsak's collections, it is difficult to imagine how that world can live. we will come, but of course. it is pleasing, but let's remember that ukrainians are half a percent

of the world's population and it is about the same fraction er, if er, we are talking about a breakthrough, then most likely this breakthrough is er. it seems to me that we are the closest to this breakthrough in culture, and it is a question of whether we can with our creativity, or we can with our texts, or we can with our e- e design . is the most interesting literature and the most interesting creative reflections occur where there is a value gap and we are torn apart on this value if you look at

what we are made of, what values ​​we come from, then it is enough to google it on youtube, for example some information uh issues uh from 30 years ago in order to understand what a giant way we have gone we uh actually internalized a market economy which was strange which was challenging for a large part of society we got used to democratic procedures we agreed to because from time to time we, as voters, will lose and that's okay, and as a result, we ended up with completely different experiences. these other experiences are of course rooted in the totalitarian trauma that

scared us. and i think that colonial trauma will be passed down from generation to generation, and so on. but nevertheless, we appear, we are fresh, we are neophytes , we are curious, we are ambitious, er, ready, er, to have the courage to jump out and announce some of our next goals, to achieve or not reach them in that sense. it seems to me that this mother is healthy the ambition that is now in ukraine, it is something very important, very valuable, it is not unique, that is, the same thing happened in poland in the 90s , the same thing happened in the czech republic and the same thing happened in other countries, this period is a wave, it then subsides after some time that it is very important for us that during this time we have time to establish enough high-quality institutions that will then be able to carry us through the following periods and that will be able to actually set the bar to which we will continue

to reach therefore, it is very important , including for the promotion of ukraine, including for the promotion of our culture , including for freedom, and so on. and so on, so that after the war we can make sure that we have a competent administration, that is, if we do not have a competent administration, this whole couple can leave during this period, by the way, actually about the administration yes, the everyday thesis that ukrainians are such a people that, in principle, he is not, well, he is not capable of wandering around an authoritarian leader, that is, ukrainians, they pull in different directions, that is, it is impossible for us, but on the other hand, we had the regime of koch, we and we we had the yanukovych regime, which we overthrew in a very painful way with a large number of victims, that is, can modern ukrainian society, after experiencing

the experience of a full-scale invasion, produce an authoritarian leader who will actually pull ukraine back, not just can, but on this authoritarianism will be a request for a certain peace because after a significant amount of suffering there will be a request for simple solutions and an authoritarian - an authoritarian leader is the one who offers these simple solutions when there is no need to agree on the solution when not you need to let them go through complicated procedures when you can just chop with a checker and have your own uh what you want and what's more , we have a history that gives birth to these uh authoritarian leaders sometimes they are on the light side sometimes they are on the dark side sometimes they come to us in the form of some communist leaders, sometimes they come to us in the form

of nationalist leaders or some underground heroes, and we now understand that those qualities are those characteristics that are needed in order to take responsibility and lead they are, in general, in the culture, accordingly, our culture is powerful, it gives rise to these e-leaders, including authoritarian leaders , the next question is whether these authoritarians are ready to accept all the others or the common people are ready to accept authoritarianism and i would say that in general no. but if we slip somewhere and leave from democracy , the cost of returning back to the rails will be very high , we will waste time again, we will again have a lost generation that will not be able to realize itself, i would rather say that it is more useful for us to agree with society that any attempts

to find a shortcut and not er use democracy are toxic and we reject them right away surely it is very important to understand that er we are a completely new er actually democracy that does not have a strong foundation in the world which it becomes uh, what, well, practically every week or every month, much tougher, we now see how the economy is actually uh, splitting into two parts, a large part of western money is leaving china, we see how the outlines of the uh, authoritarian coalition of the world global and, accordingly, begin to take shape of the democratic coalition, we see how difficult it all looks from the perspective of other major players there, for example, india , the conventional global south, and so on, and i

'm afraid to look at this schedule and, accordingly , i would say that every time we get discouraged and don't keep balance, external circumstances may deteriorate during this time, and we can then find out that we missed some important opportunities to strengthen our security, and even banally , we have so far made reasons for the loss statehood well, for example, you can't postpone the 14th nato, not because there are risks associated with russia, now it's already obvious that we and russia can cope with the coalition we have, but there are risks outside of russia , and it's better for us to be under an umbrella at the moment when these risks, god forbid, materialize in exactly the same way as uh, we uh, it's better, for example, not to postpone uh, those necessary, just urgent reforms that

need to be done, for example, school reform. yes , now the new ukrainian school has slowed down, we see that happening in culture we see what is happening in general in the humanitarian sphere and in fact the reform, we do not know what challenges there will be with the further digitization of numbers and how it will affect, for example, voting on the legitimacy of those who will be elected and so on and so on and so on if we do not do our homework we risk finding ourselves in a situation where we will again be late for the last train and then the price of catching up will be very high if we talk about risks, yes, many speakers have already mentioned in their conversations

that russia has started colonization and neocolonization in fact, with media and cultural products, that is, they started little by little, that is, with e-e, for example, from the radio station from the taps ukrainian music disappeared, so they began to offer russian a-a and in the 90s, this is the end of the 90s, from the end of the 90s, that is, that is all that is, this engine started. when they started selling us russian movies and russian tv series that contained elements of propaganda that were actually created in order to reinforce the news and strengthen the propaganda of russia . now there is an effort to bring good russians into ukraine and help them let's say ilya ponomaryev gathered conditional good russians at the resort in order to think with them about the future of russia, or arestovich, based on dugin's themes , talks about the fact that ukraine should become

the center of such a eurasian new, moscow is already rotten. this is how ukraine uses it absolutely he uses it absolutely the russian narrative about the fact that russia is actually the center of the universe or rather eurasia , but now the center is moving to ukraine to what extent do these imperial russian narratives pose a threat to ukraine now to what extent do they have a chance to take root here and is there a possibility that russian-speaking people, after they are expelled from your latvia , europe, will move and return to us and build something here. well, this is a difficult question because it has

i have a lot of questions. i am watching an expert discussion, for example, a ukrainian-russian one, and it has never been so quiet, and it has never been so quiet. it means without words. how is it now? quiet, actually. international platforms, but sometimes not even directly, that is, i have seen a situation where a ukrainian talks to a moderator, then a russian talks to a modeler, despite the fact that russians try to talk to ukrainians , but to talk within the limits of this old colonial paradigm. that is, sooner or later we will need to restore relations with another russia, that russia that will appear in the place of today's russia, that is what is now called post russia or after russia . if it doesn't happen, it will mean that in any case, whether it will happen or

not, we need to have the loyalty to defend ourselves , and this means that we are going to militarize, most likely for a generation. well, by and large, we should be ready for the situation to unfold there , to unfold according to any scenario. it seems to me that the main homework should be done by the russians, they do not yet see the scope of this work. some others we can see that the russians are still looking for a comfortable role as a victim. how to walk domestically and accordingly avoid, that is, they do everything possible in order not to take responsibility for their own existence in order not to take responsibility for what kind of system they have to build. in the end, in fact , what we see is this kind of desire to avoid subjectivity, to avoid making independent

decisions, and this is the reason why they have a lot of deserved contempt on the part of ukrainians insults, not only insults related to past wrongs. what were the tasks , but also insults due to what is happening in educated circles, the refusal of one's subjectivity, which from the ukrainian perspective looks like something that is simply not explained, that is, how can one refuse subjectivity if a-a your independence is, in fact, a self-sufficient value, this is what makes you human, because of this, i assume that the interaction with the russians and with various russian groups will have many stages, it will be different at different times, it will be colored in different emotions will periodically diverge, which means being silent to each other, sometimes this silence will be very loud

, i also understand that there are 2,000 km of border between us , and i will remind you that this is a border not along rivers, not along seas, not along mountains, it is a border in the steppe and in fact maintaining this border in the regime of the enemy is terribly expensive for us and it is also terribly tasty for them, and here the question is when we will finally be able to enter the regime when trade and normal relations between neighbors will become will become possible. if we go into this mode sooner than significant changes will occur in russia, we will actually start financing a new anti-ukrainian wave and later we will pay for it. actually, now we are already beginning to understand these things, we understand them. i would

say that in many sometimes better than our partners in the west understand them, who underestimate what russia is, who very often have wrong ideas about what russian tradition looks like, who sometimes quote dostoevsky without having read dostoevsky or not understanding dostoevsky, and accordingly, this will actually mean that we will be, for the western world , those who will cry wolves from time to time. m an attempt to look at the future uh, but i mean, we discussed in the previous answer, you emphasized that the victory may not be what we imagine, that is, we are now running a long marathon, which is actually very

exhausting, a similar marathon, but actually much shorter with much less victims were the maidan and accordingly there were post-maidan expectations of rapid changes, rapid reforms, rapid improvement of life, and in a short time, disappointment began, a great, great depression began, so post -maidan how much, after the end of the war, what do we need to know in order not to to cherish illusory hopes there and to the maximum benefit for oneself, that is, to enter like this and continue the next marathon of reconstruction . i think that we will have a lot of significance because we have a strategic determination in in the form of candidate status for the european union, and this status comes with

an understanding of what the rules will be and in what parameters we will exist, and this of course simplifies the situation because you further understand that not all 360° around must be to work on a certain sector, only this reduces energy consumption, it simplifies the situation, and of course, disappointments will be natural, they are natural, we cannot replace human psychology, it is the way it is, what seems important to me is appreciation that of the fact how serious and destructive are even short experiences of being in the occupation and even more so the experiences of those societies that are fragments of ukrainian society that had to stay there in

the occupation for eight years yes nine years and accordingly return back these groups into the mode of trust, into the mode of compassion, into the mode of unity will be very difficult here. i expect that we will just have to put in a very, very, very much effort, and we can see more than 150 years after the end of the civil war in the usa that the differences we remain with you why and how what do the situations look like in the borderlands between the countries, where were the occupied territories from one side or from the other side passed generations and generations and generations and this difference remains? i conducted

research this year. from the north of ukraine were in the occupied territories for less than a month, mostly they were and uh, uh, even in this group, i saw that there is a difference in how they treat ukrainian uh, state institutions compared to those who are in the unoccupied territories, they will be positive on the negative side, because if the ownership of state institutions actually took place here, which we can see from this rapid growth of institutional trust, then the people who were in the occupied territories did not have the same experience, moreover, their experience in many cases says that we must be on guard and accordingly, even one month in the occupation can change the way we look at each other, and this means that

the work of reintegration, the work of building trust, the work of insensitivity, the work of releasing pain, fear, hatred, a large number of people have lost their closest ones and can be blamed by time or under the influence of propaganda or is it somehow different that they are the ones with whom they will now live together and well, it will be difficult, it will be, it is just a serious test, ah, it will take us some time, it will take us some time to build again this unity and integrity already within the borders of the 91st year, eh, this is the scenario that unfortunately we will have to live through. i hope that we will pass it as painlessly as possible. i don't know. i don't know.