[000:00:00;00] thanks for the tanks, let's give planes. on february 14, ukraine's partners will meet at 9 o'clock to discuss the next package of military aid , what our state can count on at the next meeting, and what we have already received or will receive soon, and most importantly, how will this change the situation at the front, this column is the focus of me my name is oleksiy fadeev and the accent. today we are working on the results of rammstein 8 and the perspective of rammstein - 9 and our guests . today in the studio is oleksandr musienko , the head of the e-e center for military and legal research. we also welcome vasyl pavlov military

historian, head of the expert group of internal communications of the ministry of defense of ukraine, congratulations. so, gentlemen, it is accepted, at least in the media, to talk about the previous eighth rammstein as a pro-tank ramstein. and about the ninth as an aviation one, let's go back to the eighth. but it was not really a tank , the tanks arrived a little later that is, the decision about tanks came a little later. why was there such a delay? do you have any version? well, it must be said that a lot was expected , the announcement on january 20 was the reason for this the western media and not only that, it was said that it should have turned out that way, that is, the pressure on germany grew, and the western media and politicians and the ukrainian ones all talked about it, and it was logical to allow it. well, i think you see that the german chancellor hesitated for quite a long time, weighed all for and against, and in the end, here is the decision of the american president that the united states is ready to provide its tanks, she

pushed me to the right decision . if you look at rammstein's results, i believe that they are further for ukraine. in general, if we look at the beginning of this year, it is successful for ukraine in the issue of providing weapons , specifically armored vehicles, yes, under the star of armored vehicles. it must have been somewhere in january, a month ago , because many decisions were dedicated to provision of armor for cars , armored personnel carriers, cars with reinforced armored protection, etc. i think that she did not play a fatal role for 3-4 days. this is not the right term. oleksandr. it's clear . but uh, well, i remember well from here and i remember that before that, we as media and you know, we

always like to hang on everything shortcuts so it's shorter and clearer, and we said, and together with us, the public repeated that the tank ramstein of the eighth and ninth will be aviation, but there was actually no tank ramstein on the 20th, and it happened a little later, vasyl you do you have any version, well, besides the scholz position, why so what happened, that is, in principle, everything is quite simple, uh, we should call this rammstein so tanky, because the armor is mechanized. oleksandr said that there were uh, even before rammstein, decisions on the provision of armored vehicles were announced about the possible provision of tanks, most likely during rammstein the negotiations should also not be forgotten that a few days before rammstein there was a meeting between valery zaluzhny and mr. mili, where it is also possible that some decisions were discussed , and immediately after ranstein

, he began to go into the information that will be provided tanks, most likely rammstein was talked about, plus the position of countries like nato, which are the closest to russia , the baltic countries and poland. i think they also played their role in the fact that they are ready to provide ukraine with different options of armored vehicles plus here it should be said that the decision on the provision of tanks can be voiced and it was voiced, but from the decision itself to a specific combat application , which, most likely, our society expects much more than the decision on the transfer itself tanks, it requires a certain amount of time, certain preparation and preparation, not only technical preparation, but also informational preparation, tactical preparation, there are many options . well, actually, then the question arises about the terms

. well, what will we get? and in the afternoon, rammstein and reuters published the news that one of the high-ranking officials of the us administration told a group of journalists on the sidelines in an interview on the condition of anonymity that i quote and high american ranks advise ukraine should refrain from starting a major offensive operation against the russian army until all arms deliveries from the usa and all training of personnel are completed. and when it happens that they will be completed , how long will it take to deal with the issue of training and logistics ? be applied to logistics, not only deliveries , and we are now in polish well, of course well, logistics is a whole algorithm and it is separate and suspensions here and

in nato countries as well. that is, it is clear why because it is quite a lot of questions and technically maintenance. don't forget repairs and supervision. technically, these are serious things . yes, american experts say it quite simply. they say that if you neglect the training of tank crews, the tank is used at 60% of its efficiency , 50-60%. question, we are interested in using each of these machines, which for us are as effective as their weight in gold, so we need preparation, we can't neglect this, this is an important moment, so if we all didn't want them to appear instantly, it's all the second time the question of what is currently heard in the mass media and it is actively announced at the event that it is clear that our partners are also sometimes they blow on the cold, you understand why because and there is no experience of using western tanks on the territory of ukraine to this day, and what we are talking about is the weight of the weather conditions that can

be applied from here and deliveries yes the only plus is that the chancellor is attached. sorry, not chancellor scholtz, the german defense minister , pistorius, comments for the publication focus. the delivery of the german ones is what the minister said. that is, we can deviate from the official opinion of the british defense minister wallace. he calls the terms more like this, but they are also tied to the spring , that is, everything goes to the spring, not bradley, they say it will be earlier. at least about this, but here are these that is, it is spring somewhere and what they tell us is not, i do not understand at all , you know, we have picked up on what kind of criticism not to rush the offensive. application yes, we need to get it, they already want to get it, obviously

under which tables our command will decide, and therefore, of course, until we have received it, such advice is absolutely normal, but can we take into account then and so in this logic the statement or the note of president zelenskyi who in an interview with kayu said that, for example, if the tanks arrive, well, let's say at the end of august, as he said, it will be too late. i think that the supreme commander of the president of ukraine did not set any deadlines, he simply means and outlines a situation that can develop at the front at any moment. it can change, plus, again, a colleague already calls temporary dimensions, then here it is quite simple from history, you can remember that during the second world war, the germans trained their crews for tigers, the descendants of which were leopards, for 6

months, the soviet troops of the soviet command sometimes threw their tank crews into battle after six days of training but this is also where the statistics came from, that in the soviet union it was considered absolutely normal when one german tank was destroyed at the cost of 10 soviet ones, let 's not forget that there is not only iron, it's also crews that need to be trained, a colleague also noted that these are service personnel and therefore, when we talk about the term of preparation , we must clearly understand that even the decision about the delivery itself has some delay, that is, it begins, and earlier the negotiations begin much earlier , and it is possible that the decision is announced already then when certain actions have been taken, it is possible to start training the crews, it is possible that the tanks are already in russia , where they will be, how they will be, this is already the prerogative of our

higher command, again, the same for us . there is no need to simply use tanks. we do not have to simply put these tanks there on the contact line and everyone will be happy about it. no, these tanks have to perform the tasks for which they are intended, and accordingly , the combat armored vehicles are the same. this is important to our citizens. by the way, the citizens and i are probably with them, we all know about the second world war, yes, tanks, tank attacks and something like that according to nato standards. i think that it is not military people, just nato standards - this is a rather conventional thing , colleague already noted that there is no experience in the combat use of this equipment, there is no combat use of leopards in europe, there is no combat use of abrams against russian equipment with such crews, just as

there was no use of patriots against there x22 or x59s in real combat, that is, everything that what happens with the supply of weapons, everything that will happen with its combat use is to some extent risks and the partners calculate them in the same way well, one should not forget the possibility of these weapons falling into the hands of the enemy for one reason or another, this must also be foreseen, therefore, any accusations of partners that the equipment is supplied there in the wrong configuration or without some elements are completely unfounded plus you also noted that in the imagination of most of our citizens, the use of tanks is right there pictures of the second world war and pictures there of the epics of the lake lake there are huge tank masses eh this is exactly the soviet scheme or the current russian one this is the massive use

of tanks eh the tanks of the nato countries were precisely designed to counter them they are much heavier this is a tank well you can say a tank defense tank deterrence is not a breakthrough tank , but for some reason ours all believe that there will be a breakthrough , the breakthrough will be forgotten, but it will provide a completely different technique for this, there are bradleys for this, there are wheeled ones well, no, you can’t call them tanks, wheeled armored vehicles, that's why there will be a certain combination that first you need to hold back the blow, cushion it, then i will strike back, and it is precisely this combination of this technique that does not arrive, it indicates precisely that this is the chosen tactic of fuel vasyl, of course, i am not a military person but i would like to clarify whether it is correct from what you say that it is possible that we can do without tanks in principle with the arsenal of weapons that are already

supplied to us, well, based on what the goal is, let's not forget that the repulse of the russian aggression during february, march and most of april, ukraine provided the weapons it had available, we did not have western armored vehicles, we did not have tanks, we did not have western artillery yet, that is, ukraine showed that it can fight even the weapons that we have available, so if what task will be set for that, tanks and other armored vehicles will be used, but in principle, from the experience that we already have, all of us and you, including our partners, are enough there is a high probability that the tanks will also strengthen, greatly strengthen not the potential, they will strengthen the ukrainian potential and give us, let's say so, it is more correct to say the multiplicity of options, that is, ukraine with machine tools is somewhat different from ukraine without tanks

, ukraine with armored vehicles - this is another option ukraine with armored vehicles and with machine tools - this is the third option ukraine with armored cars tanks and artillery of different radius of action this is another option ukraine with the consequences of the aviation rammstein - it is completely different in general, so you should compare very carefully well, what will we talk about aviation next? and why am i asking all this because right in front of me is a quote from the washington post on january 26 of this year, and tanks each have different delivery terms , unique logistical difficulties, military experts are not sure that they are tanks will have a decisive influence on the battlefield, and the armed forces of ukraine still need to be taught how to use them, well, that’s actually what you and i talked about, mr. oleksandr, so there are logistical issues

, there are issues, ms. staff. weigh more than look, i just have to say here that the weapons that are released are also released, and this was said earlier under certain specific actions, the operation is oriented towards something obvious, the calculation of tanks on armored vehicles is also present, it is clear that even when using them, the introduction of offensive actions is so the very calculations that are present, because it can really be used for defense, and it can be used effectively for offensive purposes, but the tank must be used in a coordinated way with other units if you use a tank without artillery or without support, it is clear that it is completely different. if you use it with artillery or even with air support, that is, everything has certain, this is written in principle by western commentators in their textbooks, the possibilities of application as needed, how to act and so on, at that time, they voiced

this about logistics, well, the main question is, which is, of course, maintenance and repairs, the possibility of their implementation, and spare parts, why, why, fuel, too, why spare parts are emphasized. well, for example, a tank the british challenger 2 is not produced in the version that already exists, as a result, there are no spare parts, why did they say that leopards are important from this point of view, uh, leopard manufacturers are ready to ensure the production of spare parts, and this is important because there is a war, weapons are used intensively and production bases must be changed and capacity, where it will be carried out and then their transportation , restrictions mean secret, secret information , how to do it, our logistics cope with it, but it also takes a certain amount of time so that the enemy does not know, and so on therefore, from this point of view, i think that everything will be fine, and the fact that it takes time and requires training, well, this is again under efficiency and briefly about the role of tanks, because this is

an important point, it is really necessary to move away from the paradigm and understanding of the second world war , tanks, they are used for a breakthrough in the enemy's defenses, which can consist not only of machines that are standing, let's see the experience, that's p. vasyl mentioned the fierce march . that's how the tanks burned the artillery and what the enemy tanks fired with javelins, and here we also need a leopard to destroy the t-90 can we destroy it by other russian means effectively? and we need it in order to destroy the enemy's fortifications of his line of defense. these can be fortifications . these are some objects where the enemy can store something and so on and help our infantry. go there and continue to act. for this, first of all, you need efficiency, and you understand now, eh, our enemy is actively practicing there and says that their t-90s are here. so, i want to tell you that one of the leopards has

night vision devices and they can enter eh round-the-clock combat operations, not every t-72 is it the 80th, well, you are the 90th, it is still possible that it has been modernized from the russian side, that is, even if you imagine some tank doors that are smaller, but they also happen here, more on the side of, let’s say , western weapons, these are facts that we have already closed on the topic of tanks at this moment, this is the last question on this matter, this story about the abrams is american, and look , the united states announced that the abrams will arrive at the end of this year on the 23rd, and maybe even next year, what was it or was it such a move by the united states to give a push to the europeans for the supply of tanks to ukraine. yes, it can be anything in general. there are very simple things that the administration of the united states of america clearly defined, they defined different aid packages, and accordingly

, when the next package is announced there , the american administration announces under which program everything is it was clearly stated that under this program it will not be black tanks , this should have been understood immediately, plus , again, remembering the history of a-a we really like the word lindlis, as well as lend-lis which everyone there understands as complete, it started working there approximately 2-2.5 years after its announcement, it is necessary to start the industry , no one was preparing for such a war that is happening now , everyone has already said about it, and there two or three times ago, we we want to get those tanks that will be suitable for performing the tasks we need, respectively, again in our society . does the situation arise there very often? we were given tanks, but for those. but you have somewhere around six , give us more of those. it doesn’t work there. that’s why the specified tank has certain characteristics

. it needs to be manufactured in the same way. a colleague said that we destroyed tanks. the same t-90 does not have leopards, abrams, or challengers. that is , ukraine has experience in countering russian tanks with existing weapons and, accordingly, the appearance of the abrams is most likely, in my opinion, on the one hand, it is a political gesture, and on the other hand, it is just a demonstration of the fact that even after the possible end of the conflict, ukraine will receive modern weapons and it will be with this modern weapons, speaking of modern weapons, we carry what is called the ninth rammstein, and again, the mass media and some statesmen say that the rammstein ii will become an aviation rammstein, in particular, it will appear so in one of the interviews, and judging by the statements in

various there are experts and so on, you can go on about fighters, maybe two dozen, i won’t name the numbers , that’s right , what kind of fighters? gripeny eh in 16 why is the shortcut like that right away, again, it is not a shortcut, it is the most common aircraft that is currently in service with most nato countries, most countries of the world have certain of them, this is one point, the second point is an aircraft that can perform a huge number of functions depending on the configuration of the weapons, depending on from the configuration of the equipment further er, then this aircraft was developed er specifically for action in the conditional european theater and countering precisely soviet or

post-soviet types of weapons, and he, well, if you can say so about aviation equipment, well much easier to maintain than others, although this is a completely conditional phrase , but uh, this aircraft would really significantly strengthen ukrainian aviation on the one hand, and on the other hand, the same gripen would not be superfluous for us, the same typhoon would not be superfluous for us but like tanks these are airplanes of a completely different purpose and the purpose of completely different opportunities, this is again, it will not be there, it will be a dog dump of the forties , or it will not be there, only old men are going into battle , er, lyoha is attacking, that is, there will not be such a thing again yes, everything is a completely different f16 technique, well, again

after all, our people are used to operating with certain stereotypes. well, they know very well that there are 16, but also many other, many other planes, and these uh, uh, fighters, uh, a few experts, in particular, mr. zhdanov there stated that they are very sensitive to how it's called runway coverage, it's true well, that's exactly it, again, this is what my colleague has said about more than once, uh, aviation rammstein, it can become aviation on s- not only from the point of view of uh, aviation as planes, it's infrastructure, it's airfields, it's a system navigation is a pilot training system e supply of weapons supply of fuel and accordingly in order for us to be able to use all of this e these planes have to be based on something something these planes have to be maintained these planes need

personnel and again eh on rammstein certain political decisions can be made and announced or a decision about intentions about the possibility of providing something, but from the moment of the decision to the moment of preparation, it will still take a certain amount of time , including during this time it will go to the preparation of the infrastructure. now we will talk, we will return to the infrastructure, but you said about political sentences, by the way, germany immediately said no, there won't be any f-16s, and biden said this recently , while answering a question from a ukrainian journalist, by the way , but there was a strange question there: will you supply? he said no and left, what does this all mean, it starts again the ritual dance with a tambourine is also called, you know , first of all, it must be said that according to abrams, i want to remind you that about two weeks before the announcement of the decision to the presidents of the united states

, there was a delegation from the pentagon and from the state the department was told that there will be no abrams in ukraine and the usa does not plan to provide them. the situation is changing, and we can see that it is changing on the example of germany. that is , we do not have anything to say categorically about anything today, that is, the situation can change because what if we can allow the following scenario if tomorrow the united states or some other high-ranking officials come to the military and its advisers with the necessary arguments about why to support land counter-offensives actions for the ukrainian army are needed from the air in order for them to be crowned with results. because this is what the classics say, there must be support from the air, artillery, you must have tanks , then you can count on a successful result , then the provision of tanks and the transfer of abrams to ukraine and so on it will all be in vain , including because of different categories of the plane of the history of success, political, financial, and so on, which any democratic state takes into account, that is, this situation can change

from time to time regarding various technical infrastructural moments, well, listen, you know, i can find quite a few reasons why we should give up this and that, say oh, it's difficult, but it's impossible . we must ensure that we have a choice. and we have another way out. we are in such conditions when we have to. we cannot afford to say. yes, we will take it . it does not suit us. we have concrete. not even that i'm sorry, we were absolutely not in the right conditions and in the wrong situation , that's why we can adapt to everything. and this experience of the war has shown it, i've also heard about the abrams , many specialists and experts say that it has aviation fuel. and then what should we do? well, what do we say? change the design data of this tank for us, install diesel engines. that is, we are in such conditions that we, uh, have

to adapt to the aviation component absolutely. why did they talk about it, because it is logical from the point of view of supporting support from the air and this is understood by our partners, simply decisions, political decisions regarding the type of aircraft, regarding the possibility of spare parts, so it is called certain models , i will announce them first of all, but of course, if there will be more finished types of aircraft, again, we are not in the situation to turn our noses up and say, i'm sorry we won't accept it, well actually we don't do that, for example the spokesman of the air force, yuriy ignat , said that now ukraine is already preparing to receive western aircraft, and we are talking about the training of pilots and the preparation of airfields , and according to hnat, they will be universal they will be for all types of e-e aircraft, but the question arises how will they be protected, we know what started on february 24 of last year with an attack on the airfields in the first place and here is such a huge object , a universal runway, how to protect it

or should ukraine has the potential and weapons to do this, now i will give a brief answer literally in ukrainian, the planes are flying now , they are performing tasks in our ukrainian country. here is the answer, and again, if we are talking about the conventional aviation rammstein, then ensuring security is also a component of the aviation, well, the combat work of the aviation, that is, i think that this will again be a comprehensive solution, and we know that already now the allies and those countries that provide us with military and technical assistance they will also talk about the increase in air defense components, that is, we are so interested in any element , it is so wave-like, they said something about something , they gave something, yes, it is interesting. then, as you said at the beginning of the broadcast, they gave one thing, let us give another , the same if we are talking about aviation component, let's not forget about the army aviation that these are helicopters that

are no less effective, the next question is absolutely . it seems that great britain is going to give us four a-a attack apaches, and there are some er-e modern equipment , i will remind the audience that the apaches were generally designed for anti-soviet tanks , because everyone was afraid that they would crawl through the polish corridor, and then there were points where these four apaches have disappeared, which means that somewhere they have flown to the horizon of the event. it didn't disappear anywhere. this information appeared in the information space and disappeared. the source of providing this information simply removed the message itself. but here we should not reject the fact that it was a certain

testing of public opinion about a what well, for example a, let's throw in such information as it will be perceived and, in principle, our society accepted it very simply well, well, and patches, well, give two oh there are even more so, yes better four again, the same great britain, it has already announced and provided ukraine with naval helicopters, which we need no less than helicopters , let's say it half-faced as a military historian, a military historian . i would say and no, how to say this is not yet brewed , unlike the germans, unlike even the americans , the british who do not calculate the risks, the british probably calculate the risks like no one else, that is why they provide this help, this is one moment, the other