[000:00:00;00] i was sometimes told that every day is a difficult day because it is a captivity. when they were given a hard time, they began to hate us and we even realized that the more we are beaten there, the better things are with our soldiers. on the eve of our victory, heroes are not born. voice: who are you? i thought it was cooking. and he was in pixel with his students and it was such happiness. he said glory to ukraine . i wanted to cry from happiness. we are ukrainians. we ukrainians will definitely win. now we can watch how it will look like.

let's do it's heroes from monday to friday 23:00 in marathon the only news 1 +1 continued the national telethon at this time on the air 1+1 there is a discussion platform night watch and the topic we chose today for our discussion for our conversation is e a new wave of anti-corruption decisions have been adopted based on new concepts, new programs for the election of the new director, and our anti-corruption movement in the eu. so, in principle, we called the broadcast to ukraine’s anti-corruption exam or passing . literally a few minutes before our program, i looked into rating so to speak corruption in the world, where is ukraine now and it turned out that it is on the 116th place and somewhere just between mongolia and zambia eh and

in fact, over the last 10 years eh, we scored only eight points, so why is it so despite all our efforts let's talk today in the night watch and we introduce our guests oleksiy kushchi, economist, financial analyst and olena moshanets, a member of the parliamentary faction of a political party , a servant of the people, the deputy head of the verkhovna rada committee on anti-corruption policy , welcome to the broadcast, thank you for coming, so let's get started from our most recent topic - the election of a new director of the national anti-corruption bureau was appointed by the cabinet of ministers after choosing from three finalists of the competition, which took place for a long time, three and a half months, and the winner was semyon krivonos, who before that was the head of the state inspectorate for architecture and urban planning, this is such a well-known inspection

, all they know, and let's say it's not from the best side, this is the body that issues construction licenses, according to the anti -corruption center, he was also the winner of the competition for the head of the odesa branch of the national of the anti-corruption bureau, but because of the scandals, eh. as for his fortune, eh, he was not appointed, he had to deal with 17 plots of land and an apartment in kyiv worth about 3 million hryvnias. time also held the position of the first deputy head of odessa customs and was involved in the bribery case conducted by the sbu, but due to the lack of evidence , the case was closed. an independent anti-corruption structure well, somehow, in my opinion, in principle, it could be that this is the cleanest person in ukraine, the competition was, he

was transparent, the cabinet had the opportunity to choose this side somehow for an uncompromising commissioner , catania does not attract how do you agree or not how do you and how do you representative of the parliamentary committee on anti-corruption policy, do you evaluate the competition and this appointment well, first of all, i congratulate the national anti-corruption bureau of ukraine and ukraine itself with the fact that such a competition has taken place and we already have a manager and today especially before the broadcast i went and looked, it is already on the website of this structure, well, it is very important . this is the first moment. the second moment will now look like this. it seems that i should be a lawyer and the elected head of the national anti-corruption bureau . may have such a negative connotation, but you said a very important thing, why did the competition take so long, in fact, for

the competition, it is not that long, and even more so for the competition, according to which or because of which it is the head of the director of the national anti-corruption bureau who is elected - this is actually 4 months, for example, the head of the special specialized anti-corruption prosecutor's office, despite some long discussions, including the competition, which lasted two years. let's see, let's analyze. and who was actually in this commission that elected ? that is, these are six members, and three of them are elected by the cabinet of ministers and three foreign representatives, including those who have the relation to aid from ukraine in the fight against corruption, this is a certain technical assistance, this is cooperation with ukraine on this issue, that is, if we question the result of the competition , then we also question the reputation of these three persons. although these are three very well-known persons in

ukraine, then we question questioning the reputation of three ukrainian experts who are also very well-known persons in the field of law, therefore i would not question the results of the competition itself. although of course there are those who support this result, there are those who of course may not like this result because in addition to mr. semena, there were two other candidates in the trio. this is a small nuance so that the audience simply understands that, in fact , the appointment of the cabinet of ministers of ukraine was left out of the three finalists-competition, who were chosen by the commission. already appointed the cabinet of ministers, that is, his decision was, so to speak, the last. so that 's it. well, maybe i'll delve a little deeper into such a legal topic now, but you need to remember that ah, this question really refers to

the powers of the cabinet of ministers because the constitutional court in 2020 recognized the decree as unconstitutional, and there are those decisions that related to the previous director, so that these conflicts could be reconciled with the president, this was not within the powers of the president according to the constitution, so in short in order to eliminate this , a certain number of steps were taken , including a new law that removed these conflicts, and that is why it is the authority of the cabinet of ministers , but the cabinet of ministers chose from three candidates i.e. three finalists, to become these three finalists was quite such a long way and foreigners tested each of them in the same way and tested others who did not get into this trio, that is why i would not question this particular trio and i would not question questioning the reputation of this commission in general, this is very important because if we do not have confidence in the commission in such matters

, what can we talk about then we question the reputation of foreigners yes in this area and therefore their work experience in their for example countries, and there are people with enough serious experience, and according to the law, at least two foreign members of the commission must support it, and so it was . with zero, instead, he worked in those departments that i do not say for him, maybe he is the most crystalline person in ukraine, i will repeat, but he first headed one of the most corrupt structures in ukraine, which is called the dabi and any person who once bought an apartment or was connected with construction knows perfectly well what kind of office this is and even wanted to liquidate it because it was impossible. there was nothing to fix as it was believed and the second one is the odessa customs office, which also has such a train

of scandals for yourself that you can also sort it out there for a very long time and it is this person who heads the nabu, let's now sort it out for the little ones . saakashvili and when there was a customs reform, and if you carefully analyze that period, it was mr. saakashvili who identified this mr. semena as one of the best reformers in the customs of his party. in the elections, it is enough to cancel the dacha . he came into such great politics thanks to mr. mykhailo saakashvili. but again, now it looks like i'm his lawyer, i don't even know him in fact, i hope that he will somehow get used to his place, well, at least he will take the first steps there. and we would be happy to invite him to the committee, although

i'll be honest, the national anti-corruption bureau itself. well, during the three years of our tenure , at least, it didn't report very often, and it was with great pleasure that it reported to the committee, and there was a pansytnyk . and even there, in some cases, they are very well , well, there is a certain secret of the investigation, as well, this is not, this is not included. as far as i know, he worked precisely during the reform period, and certain positive changes are attributed to him with regard to his experience in law . as for his managerial experience , the same is true. he worked in judicial bodies, he worked there, for example, in the holosiiv administration , that is, i would not say that he has no managerial experience at all. perhaps he does not have experience there, specifically in anti-corruption, but

, i'm sorry, we have anti-corruption experience starting from 2015, if we start from the feeling of being, well, well, from the beginning of the creation of an anti-corruption structure in general , but well, maybe there were not so many people in the system who have this experience, and sometimes just experience from the outside, and it is more important because if you do you know it on the scrolls er at the customs i mean on how to fight with it yes or do you know it on how to work he worked as a lawyer because i also know from his biography from open data if you know how to fight then maybe you will be more effective because you you already have such systemic generalizing experience, which most of all, and in the near future, we will all understand from the activities that nabu will conduct under his leadership, because we actually finally got a closed anti-corruption ecosystem, we have a fully functioning anti-corruption court, we now have a director nabu and i think that society

is a very important body that should complete this step if possible. i'm sorry to interrupt , but it's very important, and by the way , artem sytnyk said about it, to which exactly trust is very great, his predecessor, yes, in this position, and the first actual director, uh, what a contest - this is the first part, and by the way, when the sytnik was elected, there were also those who were dissatisfied there, his competitor is the closest with a difference of a few votes, it seems that he tried to file a lawsuit i don't remember these details anymore, but there was also a dissatisfied part of society now. the main thing is how he will show himself, what will be the first steps. for example, will he appoint his own, whom will he appoint as deputies, or those two finalists, yakir were along with him or someone else, but the main thing is that these should be people who are professional and who clearly understand what needs to be done, to what extent he will be tolerant or not tolerant and

to stand up to the manifestations of corruption. manifestations of the war, unfortunately, unfortunately, in certain areas, in some areas, the situation is the opposite , but we received membership in the eu. i mean, we received the status of a candidate for membership in the eu. sorry, we have to move there is absolutely no way for us to go back if he does not understand this. yes, i would like to talk further and would like to ask oleksiy about prime minister shmyhal stated that now ukraine has fulfilled all seven recommendations of the eu that were determined when receiving the status of a candidate for this history of the ukrainian fight against corruption is this about politics? is it also about the economy? what ukraine, in addition to the recognition of the effectiveness of our work by our western partners, received inside the country. can

we say that, for example, the construction of an anti-corruption system will allow us to increase budget revenues by a specific amount, to increase expenditures there, to reduce them by some shadow circulation of funds. is this anti-corruption architecture more about politics? well, the fact is that the fight against corruption is also politics, because corruption is in ukraine has a systemic nature and is not only systemic but networked. that is, it is a network, it is a systemic network, and it is not possible to present this system with such point solutions . of course, we have corruption, it is a fusion of economic and political interests. an economic and political phenomenon and of course what to fight against it? well, it is impossible only with some technological means, so it will be politics. by the way, if we are talking about the impact on the economy, well, there are quite a lot of

economic studies on how corruption, for example , affects the economic system. i read some researchers who say, for example, they take, you mentioned the corruption rating , yes, the corruption acceptance index for corrupt countries , yes, the median, that is, the middle of this list , there is chile inside, and they say that moving one step from chile to the bottom of this list of countries, and this is approximately the loss of one step - this is the loss of about one and a half percent of the income of people living in this country , and we are separated by several tens of steps from chile. calculate somewhere around 30-40% of the population's income is lost because of the fact that we are at the end of this corrupt list of countries, that is, it is necessary to explain simply a citizen. that is, it is not simple

. it applies to everyone. why is this, why are we talking about this we're talking, it's just people. they think that corruption is some kind of abstract phenomenon. and they may encounter corruption there when they go to some official offices, but in reality, corruption destroys their incomes every day, that is, please, any person who is watching us, well, calculate, for example, how much income she receives per month and take 30% of this amount, this is the cost of corruption for this person . that is, this is, let's say, the price of this corruption ticket, which society buys when not when do you continue to tolerate corruption phenomena, that is, if a person earns uah 10,000 a month there, if you rose to the level of chile, then it would be 13 well, relatively speaking, well, relatively speaking, it is indirect, but it is because less was stolen from budget expenditures , the economy worked more efficiently. and you are corrupt

the economy does not go well with foreign investments, that is , there would also be a low level of corruption, there would be an influx of investments, the creation of new jobs, but jobs, more effective competition on the labor market, that is, more salaries, which would ukrainians received even the influence of corruption on the level of infant mortality in hospitals at birth, even such indicators , that is, it seems that they are not related to each other, but in fact they are very connected through the chain of efficiency of the state system , cost-effective medicine, as well as high-quality, high-quality child care and to what extent can a woman, for example, er, er, er, during pregnancy , provide for well, she has a normal lifestyle for that, and not, for example, not to go, for example , to work at a difficult job, that is, all this affects, that is, even child mortality at birth, the level of corruption kills. therefore, it is also a multi-layered phenomenon, and the problem with ukraine is that there is such a paradox of corruption, it is also there. many researchers

considered that the higher the level of corruption, the more difficult it is to fight it. so let's put it this way. the cost of this corrupt transaction, which is committed by someone, it is much cheaper to pay for the initiator of this broadcast, well, that is, to solve the issue with people , everyone involved in the corruption system cheaper than, for example, in a system where only everyone is honest, but there is only one corrupt person, that is , you have to find this corrupt person and the cost of his service will be extremely high. cheaper. and let's just say that the probability that this person will be caught is also much less. well , that's because of this product, because, well, everyone is in america, but dead - it's like a circular

a fix because everyone needs his services and everyone needs his services and no one wants to touch him because if he, for example , is arrested there, he will start, well, the entire network, relatively speaking, to prove the resolution in simple words, yes, and you, he will speak yes , and then this whole network will be under threat. that's why we need to reduce the level of corruption, and right now it's just very , very difficult for us to enter this fight because , well, a country that, for example, has been fighting corruption for a long time, like us at the systemic level. - and she is in- there, in fact, everything has already been set up such a flow of technology in ukraine, we just need to move this work. well, we are now in this situation when italy , for example, in the 80s, it was when they killed two prosecutors, falcone, his deputy from barcelona, ​​it was two famous italian prosecutors who were actually destroyed. began to destroy the italian mafia as a systemic phenomenon, i.e. they showed how to systematically

fight against corruption, and then the italians said that when our prosecutors were killed, we only then realized that the real advantage with corruption began. i am not saying that it is necessary. to kill someone there, i'm just saying that corruption is it, it's it, we'll see it, we'll see it, it's absolutely true, on the basis of what it will do. that is, we will see it everywhere in society. i want to add one more figure to confirm your opinion, you said that corruption - this is really specific money that the budget does not receive and each of us in the end, and literally, i just happened to see an interview of mr. hetmantsev's collegium with ms. elena from the parliament, who heads the financial policy committee and e. it was about what here is just one scheme of gambling business tax evasion eh cost the budget only last year uah 25 billion, although

in principle i remember how the same mr. hetman was presented, he was just one of the authors of this legalization of gambling business, i would a very, very important source of filling the budget and in the end what we in the end what we see turned into a scheme well maybe not completely but to a large extent 25 billion just flew past the budget last year the scheme was simple there instead the money received by the casino instead of it going for taxes, they did not go to the accounts of this casino, they went to some unknown accounts and unknown fizos, and then from there to some shady agro-traders who bought this grain, then sold this grain, and then returned the money to the crypto accounts of that casino, and actually everything this was done to circumvent the budget and to circumvent taxes despite the fact that in ukraine there is an economic security bureau, there is a tax office, there are a lot of different anti-corruption bodies, and all this somehow passed by

the eyes of mrs. elenia, to ask the question why in our at the stage of creating some, well, important legislative initiatives, but we have the same gambling business, whether intentionally or accidentally , these gaps are created, which then two years later, we catch up on, well, in fact, the work of the same parliament also had deputies starting to conduct their investigations, identifying these gaps, why so, well let's say that there were areas that were generally shadowy for such a long time, unfortunately, and we can now analyze the imperfection of the legislation that was, for example, adopted already during our term of office and starting from the 19th year but imagine that these industries were not taxed in any way at all, well, conditionally, and this money did not enter the budget at all for very long years, that is, one of our tasks , this also applies to the economic policy

of anti-corruption activities, was to bring to the world these industries that we do not see this there was also the alcohol industry, for example, where a lot of funds did not enter the budget system through the tax system, they passed by it, and the same gambling business and the legalization of other areas that we are talking about now more so far we are talking about why it is happening. so it is imperfect because, well, such legislation is not only in ukraine, but in the world, which is ideal from the very beginning. well, there is no. let’s do this , we need to adopt a basic so-called framework law, then we have a certain time to observe and analyze and continue to review and improve, yes, because well, it’s unlikely that you and i will be able to point out an industry where it would be ideal first and even in any other country, even here it is for us, for example, there is the deputy head of the corruption bureau, and now what duties did he perform in the last year, he worked in georgia in this direction, read any interviews and it becomes clear

that well, nothing happened there at first, but again now i will act as such a lawyer, but look for example the effect of electrons is certain there measures that were taken as far as they understand how much finally, what about the tools to ukraine on the eye of 8 steps up and up and we can see, for example, conventionally speaking , the wrong parking is approaching you, the inspector, well, i don’t want to say anything now bad about the system, yes in general but i think that many people understood that somewhere it is possible to somehow agree, now the fine comes to the electronic system and you have no contact with anyone , you understand that there is a photo. the amount of money in the form of a fine, everything, in such cases, surround them there , yes, i'm sorry for the break, so as not to lose this connection, they started talking about the action, very cool, there was an initiative recently about what to transfer the customs clearance

of cars, and this story is people and frankly people were waiting for it, they dreamed of creating this system, but at the stage of making a decision in the parliament, this story failed and thus demonstrated, well, society saw that when we approach the real interests of people, people are forced to overpay , give bribes and look for some kind of opportunity when a system is created, what is it for stops at the last step, it is not implemented, why did it happen, it is necessary to analyze who voted and how, so that already in detail and you can see the interest of everyone who was against, but i am sure that it will find this legislative initiative its continuation is again such a complicated thing. they are often, but not as often as we would like, approved from the first time, but in the fifth , in the first reading, sometimes before the second. i , for example, using my example, our anti-corruption strategy passed between the first and second reading more than a year, more than 500

amendments, more than that, a huge number of discussions, disputes , dissatisfied, satisfied, etc. there is a certain ultimate goal, so many pranks. yes, someone. someone does not like it. they promised , well, between the parliament, always including you. calls itself the opposition, and when this law was defeated, everyone half of the session hall sat dumbfounded, they simply stood and applauded because this law was defeated , and then people on social networks ask and what was it and why so and why unfortunately unfortunately unfortunately, there are still certain interests, including parliamentarians, that are not clear

to society and there to me , perhaps personally, but our task is to find this consensus and, after all , to bring such things to an end because, you know, during the war well, it will be very difficult later to tell the society why certain steps were not taken, by the way, during the war, we also had interesting enrichment schemes on various corrupt, so to speak, devices, in particular , it is also about the system of the way the system of issuing permits for men to cross the border, and yes, for volunteers , so to speak, i saw the gifts with my own eyes when crossing the border with slovakia in the summer, last summer, when the border guards simply let some very expensive cars go to slovakia without a queue, well, people who were sitting inside were not at all like volunteers

, to put it mildly, when i approached , i asked, "what is this?" okay well, look, what is this, what is this, a 600-th white mercedes, there is a person sitting there who in general and with it, so to speak, a lady with a dog, well, that is, with such a person well, we understand such things, but on the other hand, there is, uh, a completely established system of these issues permits, if you may have seen a fairly recent investigation of our money, lviv, who just inquired how exactly he left a year ago, the son of the same mr. portnov, 29 years old and conscripted for the military , absolutely left abroad without any problems, using a fake certificate from a public organization, then it turned out that lviv

the regional military administration issues these documents in bundles. moreover, this scheme continues to work as far as i understand. do you know about this? maybe you were interested in what is going on there? who is it? why ? that's why these schemes continue april this is the most strange we don't have time to create these stories a few moments first very good that you focused on what you saw asked and er let's say that at least attracted attention yes on borders and now i want to turn to the audience. many people travel and cross the border very often . we need to talk about it now . means of communication. to pay attention to those things that seem to us to be, let's say, not quite normal. yes, in these conditions

, the second point here is that i want to deepen this theoretical -philosophical direction. of research that says that ukraine is still in the ranking of countries that, for any normal , even cool initiative, will definitely find something that makes it possible to bypass this initiative. what was the name of this study, but if it is interesting, i will find it, what i say is the way. i believe that this is a very good initiative, because the primary goal is to give the opportunity to move quickly and without obstacles to those people who need to bring aid to ukraine but there is always distortion, there is always a certain proportion of those who are absolutely normal and use the opportunity for abnormal purposes, yes. and is it possible, for example, for anti-corruption bodies or law enforcement agencies to check everyone, i would say it is