[000:00:00;00] of course, they didn't serve their time, but they paid with their fortunes for some kind of financial loss, or for the loss of reputation, and here you are on the same platform with them. will you shake hands with them? how will you be with them, as they often say that i don't think, i honestly don't think that i can end up on the same platform with them, at least i always tried to do everything possible to avoid such meetings with such people, i can't say that i always succeeded in this, there were situations when at international conferences once suddenly together with i was a person, to put it mildly, immoral, with russian propagandists, and that's how the organizers planned despite all the protests. by the way, mine and my russian conditional colleague. that's how we once ended up on the same panel with maxim shevchenko, a well-known russian propagandist. b drunken scandal maksym and i have known each other for a long time

. so you name who i have been with for 20 years already in the same country and in one not just there professional society, but in one society i met at parties maksym shevchenko me at one party i talked about the fact that the jews had invented the jewish question in a private conversation, you don't need a tv, these people also speak from private conversations themselves. of course, i didn't want to sit next to such a person. and this person, who is known for his vinnist beliefs they wanted to sit with me on the same floor, just thanks to my origin. such people are next to people of the wrong origin . do they not sit next to them if they are not there? you always find a common language with a person who doesn't lie, the important thing is that he doesn't lie. i always offer the students the rules of the holocaust. if you want, i tell them what, let's you decide for yourself. a person came to the podium . a person came to the program. one person and another

person. one person said that jews are abominations and hitler destroyed 6 million jews . i would rather destroy 10 because they are our enemies and another person tells you that there was no holocaust, that this is all fiction - it was invented by the jews themselves in order to get some advantages in the world, which person will you stay talking to and most people are always ready to talk to a lie to the enemy, you understand and i am ready to talk to the enemy and a person who admits that 6 million jews were killed my interlocutor is because we can debate with him whether such a crime is even possible we can discuss this person who says that this crime did not happen, what i will talk to her about, you named people who all the time say that there was no crime, whose career is not built on some ideological let people be hateful in their views, but on lies, on lies, not on facts, well, these are different

things. it seems to me that lies and facts er bring us back to the ukrainian topic to the topic what should we do with the classics of ukrainian literature who had to lie er, are they enemies for us ? people who have had to lie sometimes. i would like to remind you that a lie is also a historical thing. let's put it this way, a thing that must be included in the historical context is a lie. there is a lie. there is a lie. glory to the cpsu or long live comrade stalin, and another thing is when you yourself jump to the point of lying so that the position of the second secretary of the communist party department in the union

of journalists is, shall we say, go with the komsomol delegation to bulgaria in the 60s, when nobody goes anywhere and so on, how can we understand where a person jumps out of his pants, so that, let's say, they were given the opportunity to lie publicly and to get some dividends for themselves and uh, it means to speed up their career and where does a person have to lie in order to simply it is elementary to save one's life or one's texts. where is this ethical boundary? where is this ethical boundary? how can we define it? for me, there are no

absolute criteria, but there are historical criteria. to the russian federation in russia, as we now say, and i also did my first dissertation in moscow, i spent four years in moscow, and i saw how this very russian chauvinism grows like mushrooms in the suburbs of moscow in the most, uh, liberal circles, and that's when we are talking about people who grew up there we can take the context of the 1980s, we can take the context of the 1930s, when the mandrishtan, in order to somehow save himself, writes his ode to stalin, but he also distributes , so, the brilliant anti-stalin poem written by him, almost at the same time. here where is this border, or are we saying that we need to ban

mandristam for, say, a course of foreign literature in ukrainian schools precisely because he wrote stalin's field as and how is it, how to mark it, or , for example, uh, i don't know the situation when uh, like this ukrainian poets of jewish origin, such as golovanivsky and leonid turovsky, tell writers that they should go to a party conference, a writer's conference, from kyiv to minsk, and that means making a speech there against ukrainian nationalists, and they do it, of course, not as they would like. to their leaders there, some there, lyubmoir dmytro, er, dmyterka but nevertheless they do it and they are called among these very ukrainian nationalists, er, maksym rylskyi, you know at that time in 47-48 in the 48th year, to name rylskyi among ukrainian nationalists, to sign everything to him is the verdict. what are we doing with these two writers? we also

asked ukrainian writers to call writers of ukrainian origin , which means those who push the idea of ​​world zionism into ukrainian literature, and in fact they are are rootless cosmopolitans . what to do with it when the government actually did everything possible to drive one group against another group and actually split means ukrainian literature into two hostile groups of ukrainians nationalists, so let's say it's zionists, what actually happened neither on that side nor on that side, it didn't happen how to be here, neither did the other group jump their pants in order to lie , but both those and other groups had to say words of untruth how do you look at it? what is it for you? can we say that ban pervomaiska, ban rylski because

they lied? how do you consider the problem of lies in the historical context? well, as i told you, there are works and there are personalities, and this cannot be our principle - this is our principle - this let's say it's my works, not my personality. we shouldn't look at my personality as a personality, which means it's absolutely like that without er flawlessly, that is, there were some artists who played a political and historical role , such as taras shevchenko or ivan franko . who was also a knocker? so were other people, the truth is, again, everyone remains a historical contribution, it is different, and it cannot but correspond to creativity, and creativity remains , when in 1948 the classics were shot in the idea of ​​a scoundrel of literature in

the soviet union, david ofstein was killed and leyba ticket and they killed her. this is a cafe fifera who was introduced to them by the soviet authorities as a spy with a spinning wheel. does this mean that we should not read beautiful poems from one of the classics of jewish poetry , just as tychyny is one of the classics of ukrainian poetry, only we we can't manage this double standard in this situation because we can look at russian culture with you, but we don't need a monument to pushkin because pushkin is actually a bad person and he was a chauvinist and he betrayed mazepa and he generally met with such a number of women that a decent christian will never meet and what is his monument doing in kyiv instead of saying a simple thing pushkin created absolutely brilliant things for russian culture as well as dostoyevsky and tolstoy the author's genius works are not genius works but they are not

ukrainian russian authors then questions arise, simply why in ukraine the central streets and squares and monuments should be squares, streets and monuments dedicated to representatives of another foreign culture if they did not play a significant role in ukrainian in the cultural context, it could be an answer and could be an answer to those people. as you are told, you will be barbarians and will not read dostoevsky and tolstoy. of course not. i am sure that after the war, ukrainians will read dostoevsky and tolstoy and brilliant works of any world culture, including russian, but they will not treat these people as idols, this is the problem, because the idea of ​​russians is to treat a writer and an artist as an idol, and if they allow him to be an idol, then they immediately transform him on the monument. do you remember how it was with volodymyr vysotsky, who during his life was bullied, destroyed, brought to death, and after his death turned into an icon, as well as volodymyr

mayakovsky, there are many such examples , yevgeny schwartz said about this in his play... e dragon e when lancelot says that you need to kill a person in order to understand what he is so that he is a hero and returning to fesar a little bit, i would like to correct you jewish poets were arrested in 47-48, mainly in 48 and shot on august 12, 52 and er, they shot quietly so that no one knew about it, and when one of the famous russian writers went to paris for the peace conference , they asked where is ffr degostein, where is the front of the marches, where is leip kvitko? so they were working, they were shot in august of 1952, and of course. in addition

to this, there were others. there was a felter who actually just agreed to be a knocker and of course performed his function thoroughly, which does not mean that he does not have brilliant poems. when i first came to the united states and to canada it was in the early 1990s, 1993, we were talking with my colleagues about the situation of american jewish writers , and they told me, yes, this is a weak book , this book should not be read, and this and this it's interesting and i shuddered here, how is this such a giant, such a famous writer, let's say there, er, bernard malamut, there is some er, whose solbelu, how can this be, what does one roman, er, limp on both legs, and the other roman is a genius, and

suddenly i after hearing the same answer when it came to i don't know there just marry about e protistoyevsky about alexei tolstoy, and when i talked with my colleagues from the slavic slavic departments from the west, i heard the same approach and i understood that something was wrong with me and that it was wrong, this same approach that you say whatever what kind of person who is a cultural asset, a cultural symbol, is considered to be an idol and she cannot have any vlad everything she writes is brilliant everything she does is brilliant and we should almost not adore her i would not say that this is a russian approach e this rather, such a general slavic eastern european approach is the approach of a non-liberal and non-democratic culture when you have an outstanding poet, artist, writer or composer so admired that

after his death he is included in the canon , placed in such a fictitious pantheon and adored, and this is absolutely from my point of view, it is a forbidden thing , that is, there cannot be such an approach, because if there is such an approach , how will you explain it to a person, i don't know some irina farion, that shevchenko's prose is written in russian, god will run where there is no such thing to be - it's invented, it means by some uh, irymia zishtok or other writers of non-ukrainian origin who wrote shevchenko these texts just for the sake of saying that shevchenko is not only a ukrainian text , but that's how she can say i don't say what i'll say, but it means to us we need to see the texts, we need to see the person's works, and this should be our principle, that is, the first principle is the historical context in which the person worked

, and we cannot approach the 30s with the same principles that you we are approaching the 80s. we cannot tell people who came from proletarian environments to the bolshevik party in the fifth or seventh year of the 20th century that they were traitors to their people or their national idea, because at that time also people who expressed the national they sympathized with the idea, they were sympathizers with social ideas. yes, but the people who joined the communist party in 1988, you in 1989, this causes indignation in me, and i can only uh well, i said what i wanted to say, well, from this point of view, we can principles to make simple conclusion that if we treat ourselves like this with such criteria, then we will also understand that if

we stop perceiving a person as a fate , we understand that this person has weak weak works. "yedestalina pushkin square in moscow, there can be no bad lines and no wrong lines from the point of view of this ideology, which acts like uh, closed the soviet union, they printed some of pushkin's works, banned the painting of lesya ukrainka, because these are monuments and they have to write only what we want them to write, another thing is that if they wrote a frankly weak work, and there are a lot of such weak works in the classics, because in principle you cannot write one strong work without ten weak ones, then we cannot say that it is bad . we all moreover, this is not even about readers, it is about professional literary studies, we have a picture, roll your eyes, say, god, what a miracle , what a brilliant work, what a brilliant picture, what a brilliant music , instead of saying, you know, it was not

possible to write uh, nothing, uh, great. things, shevchenko's russian work is a vivid proof that he was a ukrainian writer when he switched to the russian language, heine left him, he became just a secondary writer, this will only speak for shevchenko's benefit rather than his death, but not for us, everything written by shevchenko is always from a to z is a genius, but in fact, shevchenko as a gamer appeared precisely in ukrainian poetry, and in russian prose he turned out to be, well, an ordinary person who tried his best, and there is nothing wrong with that, there were such writers there are many and enough such examples, you know how such writers as babil left a sense of humor when they tried to write not about jews, but about ukrainians and russians, but god simply moved somewhere and retreated, and this also says a lot, but we

never do that admit and you know, i think that this is exactly what we need to admit, and when we, er, russian clichés, er, from the screen of russian televisions , have been reading for the last six months, and why are they shouting howling , er, this absolutely disgusting anti-polish, er, pushkin poem written after the polish uprising 30th year eh so where does he write what does it mean that russia has the right to quell er this is the polish uprising and you have you poles should be part of the er great slavic nation and part of the russian empire if you read this poem it's just bad just bad poem it 's that not just a secondary one not just a third one and how do you say god uh the spirit welcomes not wants but the spirit and flies away from where he wants here here here brodsky about ukrainians he is grafovanskii do you understand brodsky’s poem about

ukrainians what a few of his uh friends are in a very high rank asked not to read to print it, he read it and he printed it, but you understand the poem not just a vile poem, a stupid poem not brodsky , if we return to er this adjective when we call a person by his name the best er the best texts but maybe this is not and should not be done, of course, the party leads tychyna this is not the best poem of tychyna and tychyna just leads a failed party so it means how many such poems are there in bazhan and to a lesser extent in rylsky , but they are also in ivan drach and of course also

in dmytro pavlychka what it's easy to do with it to say that these are bad poems and that the giants of the ukrainian creative ukrainian literary community have absolutely failed things that we need, that we need to talk about, not in order to say and you know, he wrote that , so he wanted to show his loyalty to the party's communist ideals no, not for the sake of and instead of saying that oh-oh-oh there is a certain historical context that shapes a person and a person has to somehow cope with this context. there are people who managed to do it. there are people who did not always manage to do it. not a fanatical, not a hunweibinian, not an absolutist position, because if we approach these problems with an understanding based on maksym rylsky's ethics, you and i will be left with one or two authors

, one composer, one poet, and one an artist , who will certainly not be called by the general public, because he does not know these names, because they were never released on ice, and because these people always wrote what is called a table, so this maximalist principle cannot be applied because it is so to speak the opposite thing to that principle, according to which we consider any person as an idol, means that there should be neither the creation of idols on the one hand, and from the other point of view, that there should be no creation of idols, so that neither the one nor the other and it seems to me that what you propose is to consider specific texts and show that yes, we have certain texts of brilliant people, but these people also had other texts, and this will not be a schoolboy's approach

to literature and art, and this is exactly the principle that we must be used and it is necessary to conduct from er from school er hmm from those classes when they start teaching lesya ukrainka or ivan franko to the texts that er we read when we get together be it poetic texts or when we discuss them as we discuss them with you now on in the kitchen, or it means on e on the horizon, well, by the way, this is an important thing, they said that education must still be properly structured here, the teacher must talk to the students about certain authors from the point of view of a variety of approaches, because in the soviet school, ukrainian poets have always been the singers of the party clearly and therefore it is possible to say that the soviet authorities did everything they could to teach people from and learn from their native culture with the help of the school curriculum, and now

the school curriculum simply does not represent all the communist dislocations that were the soviet ukrainian literati, and a person also does not really imagine the fate of these people. perceives as lyrics in which, well, for some reason , in the 30s and 70s , they couldn't write anything like that, but, well, surely something happened. is i don't know if there are such arguments, oh, oh, or ivan bagryany, or park, it's very important not to change one idol to another, but to change it according to our approaches, oh, i know, i really love such a humane, and i know that when she came to kyiv after her trip to the ukrainian villages in the 32nd year, she was supposed to get an apartment, but she was not given an apartment because

she wrote an absolutely shameful text about what she saw in the villages that are suffering from hunger, which has only just begun, and she was going to print this text and her they were kicked out from everywhere and then the jewish italian writer who is a kip-nos took her in and actually fed her for several years when she had nowhere to go and she wrote about it in a gemarach and in the same memoir e dar eudothei she wrote something about her e -e life in a village that means it was close to jewish towns, she wrote there about jews, about religious jews, such things that make me er-er my short hair becomes er-er means on my head why because she did not use what she saw here and somehow absolutely that we are superstitions and stereotypes that she heard and what she writes is simply

on the verge of some kind of racism, if not anti-semitism, what about this text, a brilliant text, a gift of eudotheus with very good stories about what saved the jews in probably the early 30s for x years following a story about myself with a story about the holodomor and suddenly there is a paragraph like that, well, well, nowhere . it doesn’t go anywhere, which means in this case there must be a teacher who will say, you know, we have a text in which there are weak points and very strong points, but it should be done by the teacher our teacher should approach the texts from the point of view that the text also has different sides, so to speak, and that we need to evaluate the text in different ways and that any thing that is presented is presented at school or at the university is difficult. we are not used to difficulties. we are used to the fact that we have one idol. we dropped another one

. we dropped another one. and in fact, we are constantly building a culture on the plane. why is there no deep culture because we dropped all the previous idols instead of saying that do you know the eyes of his writer, this person has his strengths and weaknesses, and let's say there is some panteleimon kulish or someone else from the ukrainian artists of the second half of the 19th century, he started with ukrainian national competitions, was published in ukrainian translation in the 860s, then when she was expelled in austria decided and not i want to stay in the russian imperial ukumen, i will switch to the russian language and start writing secondary works in the russian language, what should we do with this person, we should say what yes there was such a controversial uh situation of the whole person, so we don't take these second texts , and we consider the first texts and we don't deal with this person uh, it means a monument and some

at which we have to bow down but there are certain texts of people brilliant, it's with these texts that we need to work, yes, we, we, we agreed on something about some kind of development , but you know, people agreed that, uh, our viewers, that this is how we should treat culture, that culture is, first of all, what develops your inner peace. you are internal the world, i apologize, and not what reinforces your appearance, let's say it so that it reinforces some of your ideas about the fact that the surrounding culture is aimed at the individual, and of course, if a person who is part of this cultural process , it seems to me that in every nation, it is like that in without a doubt, he is doing everything possible to somehow take the best, not the best. and we need the best . also, i think it should be understood that neither a poet

, nor a writer, nor a composer, have any time to respond to the party government's position, which means that because they talk about something else you don't need to make a living out of them, you don't need to make a national building program, because a national building program should be done by political scientists, and an artist should talk about something else. and i think that if we take this position as a principle, then from the point of view of this positions for us and it is clear how we can deal with those writers or poets or composers who wrote uh, the party leads like this, we need to understand if a person has something other than this party leads like this and look at uh, as the americans say that a glass can be

half empty will be half empty, so it is not necessary to evaluate a person from the point of view of a glass that is not half empty, because each of us has our own emptiness and but each of us also has our own e-e drops of this very m-m living living water e- what we share with our loved ones with our viewers with our readers and here is this same glass that is half full we need we need to look at what is in it and not at what is not in it thank you thank you because my glass is already full empty, it means that our ether ends, literally a few seconds before its end, i would like to sincerely thank my interlocutor today, the american historian, philologist, seysty translator yohanno petrovsko-bushtern thank you for being with us on this broadcast, and now i only have to pass the floor to my colleague anievy melnyk

, she will introduce you to the news release for this hour well and after celebrating the news, there was a special airing of a safe football match england-ukraine, we will cheer good evening, thank you in this issue about what bakhmut looks like to the military released a video, we will show helicopters from north macedonia and about the most important thing in a few moments, stay with us in the morning the russians shelled kupyansk in the kharkiv region this is reported by the main administration of the state emergency service in the kharkiv region, enemy shells hit a five-story building and a private house, the garage and gas pipe were damaged , the invaders led artillery fire fortunately