[000:00:00;00] when i watch russian propaganda tv channels, it seems to me that these people consider putin the only leader who can save russia. they think of him as if they are doing it in order to save them, free them and lead to russian prosperity and some russian light, don't you think that one day this term will still for putinism may also appear, i don't think although you make a very interesting remark about the difference between ukraine and russia and i would say about ukrainian political education i have been coming to ukraine for a long time and let's face the truth twice and this idea that someone will save us was very common. in 2004 in 2005 it was a good idea, we will get the person we need and then everything will be fine, but if you think like that, then you will not really have

democracy and you will think that everything is fine as you said, it will be the savior, the right person, the leader, in fact, you need to have, you don’t know, you had kravchuk, you had kuchma , you had yushchenko, yanukovych, you had poroshenko , and you had zelensky, and you had all these different people, they reflect different moments of your history is normal oh, everything is fine is moving forward in a completely normal way isn't it this is something that russia doesn't have i mean putin is not just putin as a person the fact that he's been in power for 20 years is terrible for russians because it makes them think that it's not in the system, not in the rules and not in the elections, but exclusively in the one and only putin, the savior. if you think like that, then you will not become a free person , you will be

passive. leaders often say that all wars end at the negotiating table, continuing what you said about schizo-fascism, do you think it is likely or possible for us ukrainians to sit down at the negotiating table with schizo-fascists let me answer this question more broadly world war ii ended because the germans lost the war france ended because the french lost the war of france he to china ended because they lost our war in afghanistan and iraq ended because we lost and it does not end when people lose can be there may not be negotiations. we lost the war in vietnam, and then we went to negotiate , that is, first someone has to lose.

after the victory of ukraine, what will russia win? they will definitely not be there if you continue to fight, they will not be either. the only way to negotiations is the victory of ukraine. it is your decision to sit at the table with these people or not, even with schizo-fascists, if you decide to negotiate, you do not choose with whom you will do it, but it will be your sovereign decision that you will later, regardless of historical models. the question is, i will do what you cannot do, ask, i will try this from the ukrainians, namely , i will ask what is the real interest of russia. i think that putin is really not a terrible geopolitician, terrible in the sense that people

look at him as a leader from a certain charisma. i don't understand it because i don't feel it. people think that he made russia great or something. but this whole anti-western movement that they started around 2000, and maybe even earlier , the cyberattack on georgia and not estonia, the invasion of ukraine in 2014, all this anti-western movement from the point of view of russia's survival because of sovereignty, there is no sense because if russia is going to exist and be strong, if it really believes in a multipolar world, which is often talked about, then this means that they should be one of those poles where they should have said well we will cooperate with the west and sometimes with china, but they pushed the west away secondly by invading ukraine, although there were so many people who wanted to cooperate with russia, this means that now they depend on china and the process has already started however, right now, before our eyes, russia is falling into a certain dependence on china, they talk about sovereignty, but

in fact they are further involved in dependence on the heavenly one, they are dependent on china every day, and he is not in ukraine, only strengthens this dependence, that is, every day when they bring their soldiers from east asia to die in ukraine they make china stronger everyday sell everything to china at chinese prices they make china stronger the chinese are just watching all this enjoying maybe where russia is moving through it becomes dependent on china so this is exactly the direction they chose yes i i think that the secondary question is who actually controls the resources in the russian far east, because the wealth of russia depends on the wealth of moscow, the wealth of moscow depends on the resources located in the russian in the far east who will control these resources in the long term moscow will finish or someone else or maybe the collapse

of russia so again i am doing what ukrainians are not expected to do but if i thought about the future of russia i would try to stop the war already today putin was replaced by someone else and i would try find a way to talk with the west through the withdrawal of russian soldiers from ukraine. this would be all because when all the russian soldiers left ukraine. then it would be possible to say that putin made a mistake, but we want start all over and the west should have said so because we withdrew all our soldiers from ukraine and then russia had a chance to become a sovereign country because it could maneuver the west's pockets. i think that putin is actually burying russian sovereignty the longer he fights in ukraine, it is even worse for russia itself. you have already said that putin is a bad geopolitician, but what was the biggest mistake he made when he first thought about starting a full-scale invasion of ukraine and then when he

decided to do it, we are now in lviv in the world one of the great austrian writers was robert musel, he wrote the book a man without properties, a wonderful character in this book, an italian diplomat says in diplomacy, never do what you want to do, if you feel you want to do something, don't do it, just don't do it, don't do it about putin in ukraine that before he was the most balanced person and better understood what could happen and what the consequences of his actions would be with age, after reading bad literature , he fell more into the captivity of his own ideas and his be home i think that invading ukraine was what he wanted to do in this way he violated the basic rule of international politics

don't do what you want to do i think that he wanted to invade ukraine and it will either be a disaster for all of russia and also will destroy his reputation. if he had done something else, he would have been remembered in a completely different way. and this last year will mark putin in history, but isn't his reputation already destroyed? you know. everything could be worse. i can't tell the russian leaders what to do in the end. i don't know nobody knows what people close to putin think about it. but every day that he is in power , the situation is getting worse. i don't think we can change it . someone else has to do it. maybe one day someone can. let's talk about the ukraine of the future. the future after the war, after ours.

of joint victory with allies and partners , what kind of country do you think ukraine could become? i'm ok, this is a great question, let's look at the positive points in ukraine during the war there , well, first of all, it's civil society and horizontal cooperation is something that you should continue because it is a way for citizens to believe in themselves that they can do something for a free ukraine, it is very important not to believe that they can implement changes, that they are not helpless, that they are not paranoid and do not believe in conspiracy theories, they can act themselves and this is very good, another very important point is successful elections even during the war, and this regardless of the personalities of poroshenko and zelensky, it is very important that poroshenko lost and zelensky won, there was a change of power in your country during wars and this is all very well in terms of what we should worry about in the future so this is how to rebuild ukraine he danger to you

is that we give too much money to one person we should not do that we america the west and so on should find all these hundreds of non-governmental organizations to help them, we have to cooperate with all regions, with all cities and towns , helping them is not about ukraine, but because, as history shows, it should be done in a decentralized manner. we do not want ukraine to find itself in a situation where the central government suddenly if we succeed in doing this, i can already see and visualize ukraine, which will be better than ukraine in 2021, with better public transport, better city squares, better kharkiv, although i really like kharkiv , it is possible to achieve it with modern cities if the reconstruction is carried out correctly ukraine

is needed by europe and europe is needed ukraine i mean that getting out of the influence of the russian empire is an opportunity to become ukraine but also to be with all other countries and europe needs you because they need a project they need a story about themselves a new fresh story their history about themselves is connected with 1945, but they need a more recent history , they need a success that they can call and their success, this success should be post-war ukraine , becoming ukraine, that's great, mr. snyder, my last question to you for today is what will be the historical responsibility of russia not putin but russia for everything she did during the war, this is a great question because i believe that responsibility is a key term in international politics and it is related to what

you said about the law, that is, it is possible for us we want putin to be arrested, but it is important for us to say that you are responsible, we believe that you are responsible for everything we believe in responsibility, but one of the problems of russia is the whole culture of impunity, they do something bad and then something even worse, and so they stop believing in all the rules and