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that is made better by journalists and experts , inform, analyze, forecast, spot, like, ukraine, exclusive interviews with foreign guests, politicians, diplomats, economists, military people, ukraine is the key to how we will live the next few years will celebrate ukraine with volodymyr ostapchuk every sunday at 9:00 p.m. for espresso of good health once again ladies and gentlemen my name is mykola veresen until 5:00 p.m. we have half an hour at two two guest, but as always lebid first, i.e. nataliya sichyblyuk, legal adviser to transferers international ukraine. good health , ms. natalya, and the first question may seem strange to you. and what kind of mandate did you draw, since this is not a state organization, it means that you wrote the mandate yourself yes, if you would say about the mandate . what do you do? what does the transfer do

? you found international - it is an accredited representative of corruption. in fact, we are an expert organization that helps ukraine fight corruption, we cooperate with both state actors and non-state actors. and i would say that this is basically our mandate. okay, it means corruption , bribery. dirty money, that's all, and i understood . and now i have a question. is it in your mandate is to deal with helping ukrainians and ukrainians to look for dirty russian money and how to send it to ukraine, because ukrainians are very much waiting for it, obviously the world also says that yes we

mean even though we want to help we really want it will somehow come to take this money, but it will not come out in the european world until we hear some information that there are 100 billion or 50 million, that 10 billion, even from the sale of this poor chelsea abramovich can't get 3 billion or two. i don't remember transferring it to ukraine because there are some bureaucratic problems on the territory of britain and we do not see this money in this money, ms. natalya, the word confiscation of russian assets has become one of our areas of work , unfortunately or fortunately, but now we have to work with what with our main problems in that area. and in short, what is the main difficulty? well, it lies in the fact that no one was ready for this war . neither in europe nor anywhere else, therefore, everyone faced problems. how can it be legally possible to confiscate russian assets while

not insist on challenging such confiscations in international courts, it turned out that this is not an easy task, i emphasize that there were no mechanisms . now they are being developed in some countries a little faster, in some a little slower, at the level of the european union they are currently ongoing legislative developments, but the european union is moving in the direction of confiscation within the framework of criminal proceedings, this means that it must be proven that the person's evil connection and his active connection with this crime cannot simply be confiscated from the assets of russians because they are russians, if we didn't want it, that's why a complex procedure, the level of evidence is very high and very long-term, they take several years with all the appeals and all the same, this will not be a guarantee that

the case will not fall apart in international courts i.e. that the court will not annul the decision of the national court, for example, and will not return the confiscated item to the person from whom it was confiscated, therefore , legally, it is a very complicated process . it seems to me that it is too difficult, despite such a hidden criticism on your part. i see that somehow they do it not quickly, not very well, if we would like it. but i just imagine a very simple thing. i, for example, a if private property is sacred, and it is really sacred, then it is very difficult to take away that private property that is sacred, the british really want it for many years

, if not tens of years. can you really ukrainians with not very high , to put it mildly speaking, legal culture can help some europeans, er, the same englishmen or french, who have a much higher legal culture and legal experience is much greater, how can ukraine join and whether they will listen to ukrainians, it's like a first-grader teaching a tenth-grader at school how to do algebra i don't know if it's geometry, please ms. natalya, well, it's in vain about our ukrainian lawyers anyway well, everything here is so bad plus myshkiv we work with international organizations as well, for example with transparency international, the european union, we directly cooperate in this direction, and we have many points of view that ukraine can help. ukraine can set an example in europe. how

can we legally confiscate such assets? we are already this is what we do . of course, our path is very different from the path of the european e . it cannot be removed sooner or later, they don’t understand how a sanction can be considered some kind of mechanism for bringing responsibility other than political, so our path is different, but we are also listened to and consulted with us of course we must be involved like no one else in this process, and it is important to establish international or international cooperation, especially in the matter of tracing assets, that is, finding them, because this is

one of the most difficult, one of the most difficult stages of confiscation, that is, how in our country now , for example, people hear that an asset has been arrested somewhere this is only half the trouble. that is, if they found him , then they arrested him, how to confiscate him , for this, completely different mechanisms are needed, because arrests are imposed precisely within the limits of sanctions , that is, any arrest in europe sooner or later it will be removed in order to confiscate. for this, completely different legal decisions are needed. and completely different political, er, political will . i cannot talk about the fact that our international partners do not want to help us, of course they do , but i am saying that legally such a situation has developed that it is necessary to invent anew, in fact, how to do, as you correctly said, violate this right to property so that the international courts that adhere to very old principles of the basic principles

of law and law so that they simply do not destroy then those decisions include how the right of ownership, as you say, tas is really sacred, how to take it away, how to violate it so that it does not fall apart, just everything, what ukraine does, ukraine communicates with, we try to help, we give recommendations, we how experts are investigating this topic and trying to find ways to speed up those processes, for example, not within the framework of criminal proceedings, that is, how can you confiscate acts without proving that the person is a direct criminal yes yes well, regarding your words , we have excellent lawyers, you just look how many lawyers per thousand population in europe and how many lawyers per thousand population in ukraine, and then you will understand where there are more of them, and secondly, is this road

, like the one ukraine is taking, the road to strasbourg , these courts, because when it is considered in the legal plane, the absection plane vasya pupkin from the city of ryazan is suing the strasbourg court against the state of ukraine , which confiscated something from him there, and according to the decision of the european court of human rights, he must return something to him, so i'm just sitting there thinking . well, how to do it so as to confiscate to take away and that it was flawless from the point of view that there would be no later cassation appeals of other other measures that may arise in europe in the luxembourgish essence or that you are a swedish court? well , which considers various such international cases ? is the london court the high court in london and so on

it's not a simple story. it seems to me that it's so complicated. you're absolutely right. it's really not a simple, very complicated story . we still can't say with any certainty that the mechanisms are not only in ukraine, but in any country. confiscation, they will not insist on this appeal, cassation in international courts, no one can be sure, the most i can tell you is that some of us are already appealing the decision , for example, we had a decision on the nationalization of the so-called russian banks , maybe you remember zberbank and the web bank of course, the representatives of these banks turned to arbitration almost immediately, there is still no decision , but it is not known how the court will decide because those assets were also confiscated according to a new

, unprecedented procedure. do you understand that there is such a problem here that we are essentially looking for a legal solution to a very political problem, that is, it is very easy to impose a sanction in the form of seizure of assets or i don't know some other restrictive measures because this is a political means of influence that corresponds to the political the problem is more difficult when there is no legal means to respond to such a problem, therefore ukraine acts as it deems necessary and it must do something about it and i will not praise our legislative mechanisms for confiscation they have their shortcomings, they can be um challenged in international courts , will this happen, well, we time will tell if uh, it is necessary to pass the check at times, because when a new legal mechanism is started for any process, it is always risky because it is a law in principle

it's so permanent, it's based on such old principles, you know, that it's very difficult to introduce something new there, so when you find something like that, you think of something, try to start something, there's always the risk that it will contradict what with a tradition that has existed for many years, but in our situation we have to somehow confiscate these assets of the russians, you understand, don’t confiscate them , and don’t look too much. okay, yes, i agree with you completely. everyone has every right, everyone has the world's predencies, but this is the question hmm. maybe there are some meetings on some neutral lane. well, because now, well, it's me, and you, when i was talking about nuremberg, i mentioned nurnberg

. such a process is also the latest processes to judge fascist criminals on the base, based on what was before the war, it was impossible, a special special tribunal had to be invented, and only then did they introduce fascist criminals , as i think it will be with high -ranking russian criminals. to the neutral zone to gather americans, ukrainians , poles, lithuanians, englishmen in switzerland , continental right about guides and the saxons will come to sit down and just talk , listen we have a problem we can't solve in the old coordinate systems, we need to solve it, let's exchange ideas, how is it, theoretically, draw one, two or three roads, say you can go this way and that way , and you and that way well, humanity will already decide there at the level of the un ms. natalya

, please of course that such meetings are held, how effective they are, well, we can judge with you as people who observe what is happening now, but without a doubt, if correctly said, the crisis has always been a locomotive for progress for new solutions and the right not to be excluded, therefore, of course, such unfortunately the tragedies that are happening now, the war in ukraine, it should affect this legal and legal trajectory , the legal rules should be revised , because there are a lot of shortcomings and a lot of things turned out to be ineffective in overcoming the crisis in which we unfortunately found ourselves, so a-a of course that we need more cooperation, we need more political will , we need our partners to be perhaps a little bolder in their initiatives , it is difficult here, because it is always dangerous to introduce such a precedent, understand when you say

about the right of ownership, i am talking now not only about the assets of russia, for example, about the assets of russia as a state there, their assets of the central bank, and so on. so when you collect such assets, you set a dangerous precedent , they may not trust you later, that money is therefore already entering into a conflict the interests of our partners and we cannot blame them for this. of course, the economy is important, but for us the only right path is obvious and i still believe that our partners see the same for them the valuable values ​​of democracy are higher than any others. therefore, sooner or later we will still find a way out and confiscate all the assets that are needed to rebuild our ukraine. well, fight, you will win only one thing , they can only quote taras hryhorovych shevchenko, nataliya sichivvlyuk of the legal council this is transperence international is an organization

that is designed to fight corruption. and now it is trying to find russian money , confiscate it and transfer it to ukraine. this is an important topic and we will now switch to the russian language. because yanis bohdan, the ex-minister of justice of latvia, will be in touch with us, and i will continue this conversation with him, which was started by mrs. nataliya, janis hello, i hope to see you soon and thank you for finding us on sunday , the ex-minister will talk to us justice of latvia i'm not from bordeaux, but look, we just talked with the ukrainian organization of the world, in fact, i found transfers that are on the way to check, well, we know everything, we know, i know most of the people, you know that her mandate is

dirty money this is corruption and so on ukrainian transfer is now actively involved with european lawyers how to take money from russian oligarchs who support putin and then transfer money to ukraine and this is a complicated question considering that excuse me, capitalism has defeated socialism and under capitalism, it is private property, so that you can comment on it, is it possible? to find some way because our discussion with er transperences led to the fact that they will all run er to the strasbourg court in the case of human rights and win that state ukraine will say everything, return it to us and pay some fines for the fact that we suffered a lot here because they took money from us and we can get some real estate or something else. something else, what do you say? how to get out of the situation

i, of course, know that all decisions must be legal, but my point of view is that such a legal path is very real and very possible. it is clear that the oligarchs will run , it is their right, their usual business . lawyers will find a solution, and it is very possible to find such solutions because they are not just going after the money of ordinary russian people, as they say, because the russians are going after the money of people who instigated the war, who cooperated with the government, who then does

now eh a criminally punishable act eh a criminal case against eh humanity a crime against humanity and in such cases eh well, i can't say there are no problems but it is absolutely fair and absolutely legal to confiscate the property of such eh people whose guilt will be proven. i think that after the end of the war or before and then through mediation. i know that the ukrainian government is working on this. we cooperated with mr. moluska and your minister of justice to organize such the fund to which these funds are transferred and this fund distributes to help with the exhibition of ukraine, i see it is very real expensive well, this is a new one, see i also talked about it in the discussion, i will repeat now, but it was not

based on the condemnation of the fascist germans fascists, and the nurem process of the jury tribunal was invented, that is, on the basis of the old, old laws, no one could be tried , they were like that in general , they carried out hitler's orders as they said them. come up with nuremberg come up with a new basis to go through well and judge and so on and so on what you are talking about and what is waiting for you in ukraine, do you yourself understand or do you need to come up with some kind of meeting of lawyers and lawyers so that they gather and say let's go this way or this way or this way but we have to solve this issue in order for justice to rise up in

the end. this is our job. please, yes, the nuremberg process that you mentioned is one of the good candidates, as the international community, and the lawyers found a way to condemn it too. fascist oligarchs eh and now fascist oligarchs yes, how to condemn criminals who eh directly gave orders eh or directly executed criminal money and executed criminal eh orders but also incited to because if you watch what is russia now - and i will repeat myself, it was said a lot that criminal organizations are in charge of criminal organizations, which is why this is a war, this is a war

, what will it be? ready, well, he is coming to the beginning of the murders, and that is why he already said quickly that there will always be a second party that will try to interfere with this, and from that side, it is very effective, so that very big money is very big. people, they will want to make more money for post-war er post-war reconstruction of ukraine. i will not be surprised that the same russian oligarchs will then try to make more money from the other side, yes, this will all be the case, but here is the question of honest people who will protect just look at it. i don't follow the question at all, it's not from the legal plane. and it's so half ironic. and maybe it's very

early in latvia. they didn't do scientific research. how many years do you have to learn the latvian language, then after 32 or 33 or 34 years, you won't learn it. that's what should be in the head of a person who lives for more than 30 years somewhere where they speak his native language and after 30 years he won't learn it and i'll explain it to the audience, it's just that in latvia, russian speakers were forced to to pass the exam and they are unhappy, understandable russian tv propaganda russian oh, it's practically impossible, i thought maybe there's just some vlad and some stupid russians, they can't learn the language

in the country they live in for 32 years so that you can say what an absurd situation at the age of 33, well, it's possible to learn the language at least at the level hello , sell me sugar, or, or goodbye, good night in oath yes what about the people who are now attacking ukraine, who are ready to kill people in ukraine in order to expand their empire, to expand their russia, and probably those people who are 30 years old, not even 30 , because there are many residents here in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, they

came here on very good terms for the former soviet union, and they knew here that they were occupiers and felt like occupiers, and they were waiting for the latvians to disappear . such a bitter ironic joke that origa is a good city, but unfortunately there is a lot here latvians and here they are, yes, the current war is in ukraine, and obviously they were waiting for it to come to riga, and that’s the only way i can explain it. tell me when they will come to riga . tell me, janis, but if you ask such people, this is an important moment i had such a conversation in tally a little many years ago with a taxi driver and a taxi and here is such a russian-speaking taxi and when i will tell you if they offered you in moscow a good

apartment in the center salary he said called gave me that and the madman would say i will never go to moscow if asked russian-speaking residents of latvia say well, please, you have the opportunity to go to russia, you like it, you like language , you have everything, as if for this, why don't they go, why, on the contrary, in latvia, they are protesting there against something, here i am i always thought about it, i could never understand why they stay where they don't like to live in a huge country, 140 million people, everything speaks russian, it's very easy to speak russian, there are no questions no, please leave, they would want to leave if you offered to leave or or or it would still be better to stay in the european union, well, this is already a established fact , first of all, they could very well leave

, right away, when the eight latvians were restored, and when there ceased to be an outlying empire , and from here it left a- well, quite a large part is probably somewhere around 200,000 or so. well, these are citizens of the soviet union, whom russia was and was their home. some of them later tried to come back to see what was happening in russia, but mostly people here probably 80% of all people remained there in latvian, they know here what is better here, it's just nonsense, and they are waiting for the necessary laws to be adopted, and here there is one more moment, there was such a position of europe to join its european union and nato, and we were very happy it's difficult, as they say, negotiations and businesses, and here, er, then europe, er, that's how old

european politicians are, er, he's often corrupt politicians, and there are very many who were afraid of russia, they did everything to well, that's the solution. how did they not force the russians to switch to latin uh, they didn't allow it to open latin schools on the side. well, there was some kind of war, and on the latin side, we were also probably afraid of this somehow. well, the time is coming. i don't know, sociology says that how many percent of russian-speaking people still recognize the latvian language, send their children to latvian schools, want to study in latvian, and somehow try to assimilate already in the new

realities of the latvian ethnos. openly does not appear, i don’t know why, but i know that secretly and clearly more and more and more and more , and if i have a minute, i will briefly say that a film recently came out in latvian, which was shot by such a russian guy, and the film, uh, was exactly the theme project, yes, the russian guy himself i made about my family, which celebrates may 9 and so on, but i call the film, but everything will be good, and it is about the fact that you are all the new generation, after all , they live in europe, they become latvians , europeans, and everything will be good, i have no doubt that in ukraine too and in latvia in the baltics will be good everywhere where there are no russians thanks to the ukrainians glory to ukraine glory to the heroes aa thank you very much yani from bordon from the ex-minister