spoke in defense of world peace and helped to do everything so that the cruel russian war of aggression was finally brought to a just conclusion, mr. pavlo, let's sum up the results of this european assault on china, which began with german chancellor olaf scholtz, then the prime minister pedro sanchez of spain, then the president of france, manuel macron, the chief european diplomat, jose borel, the president of the european commission, ursula von der lam, in one word , in one word, they all traveled to obviously talk about their european cooperation with china, but also in order to somehow force china to put more pressure on russia , let's take a look at this very moment, let's sum up whether they forced it. so far, not uh-uh 100% western pressure uh-uh works, but it works

in two directions with on the one hand, the chinese understand that they have interests in working with the west , and the chinese would very much like to become an active player in our war with russia, on the other hand, the chinese do not want to start mediation because it means pressure on them from the point of view of achieving a result, and so far they have not see such opportunities between us and putin by the way, we have a different definition of justice so far with the chinese because they say let's stop somewhere halfway for us and for putin, of course we don't want to stop halfway and we're not going to

, so what this western one you say landing and the new dynamics around beijing is definitely in his interests, he likes beijing very much, it is not very easy but nevertheless it is possible somehow to create problems for western solidarity with one to speak his own way with others in their own way, but conditionally with the french, in their own way, with the spanish, in their own way, with the americans, too . well, we already mentioned proana berberg again. china's task is not to help us win this war . this is definitely not china's goal, china's task in because as a result of all the transformations that will take place, he had a greater influence on

decisions, including western decisions, and that there was no collective action from the point of view of the solidarity of the common strategy and the common desire to implement it in this sense we have space for talking with the chinese is clear we have space for possible future cooperation but nevertheless we have to understand very well that our positions are different, the chinese will continue to use putin and their regime for his purposes, they will certainly abandon him as soon as he, uh, becomes theirs not necessary, but until that moment , the chinese are pragmatic and, if you want, cynical, they will use them to the full. and this means that they will try to work for a draw on a compromise

, mr. pavlo, well, you say, i agree with you entirely in the fact that we need to develop these relations with china and we need to develop a dialogue with china but sisinpin still has not called the president of ukraine volodymyr zelensky in your opinion when will it be beneficial for him to do so i think he will 100% communicate and the problem is not precisely communication, but the problem for the chinese is a moment, a moment that will not be considered in the world, both western and non -western, as a pressure on them. and now, chinese , let's act, now the responsibility is on you , the chinese definitely do not want this, they do not want to be squeezed a-a neither political nor diplomatic they want to choose for themselves and the right one is massive you have the right one from

beijing’s point of view of course and no our moment and they want to determine the subject of such communication themselves therefore i don’t see a problem with any communication as such it is it will definitely be. but again, pikin wants to determine the content and time for himself from the point of view of his own interests, and he does not want the event to... do you remember? in reality pressed and pushed beijing for for him to play his role, which china does not want to play as of today. it is clear that we are closing the g7 and china is moving closer to us to

hungary . very bad bad statement about ukraine so he called ukraine an economically non-existent country, and there he also talked a lot about the fact that while the west will give ukraine money until ukraine will fight to exist, they will not give money at all therefore, it is necessary as soon as possible to look for some ways for peaceful negotiations in our ministry of foreign affairs responded to this statement of orbán. i will now quote what they said . against the background of unprecedented russian aggression, ukrainians keep a peaceful sky over budapest and other european cities at the cost of their lives, mr. pavly, you are the person who led for five years

ministry of foreign affairs of ukraine please tell me. if you can say this, it was enough for the response of the ministry of foreign affairs to such a statement of the prime minister of hungary. every statement that we hear from budapest , that's how many there are every week, something is heard , something looks offensive, something is not at all pulled on the head, and if it is played on every lick, what ideas are there from there that are used in domestic politics purposes, we just continue this matter, the discussion, for example, he regulated it with some

kind of joke, it sometimes works much better in political practice, than showing those who constantly speak like that in their place, in this sense, orban wants to play for his game, he wants to get money that is not coming to him from brussels at the moment, and the problem is that the hungarian system does not meet food standards, so we will join the european union, it will be a very difficult process and, of course, painful in many ways. since we have to transform what to be not just members of the european union, but a driving force there, and i believe in this story, but there is a country of the european union that is actually

trying to do something of its own, which no longer corresponds to the classical principle of the european union, or does it correspond to the classical principle of nato, this is a question for the leaders to discuss nato and in this sense, orban constantly says once a week or two something about us, how about me he needs to respond sarcastically to all his posts, he says something about, as he says , not with finance, an economically non-existent country, something other and we perceive it as an emotional content

. but in the end, there is such a share of creative sarcasm in relation to all these hungarian pranks. it does not meet some countries . well, let's not call them not meeting the standards of the principles of the european union . is there any procedure in the european union that can be launched if they see that this country does not meet certain standards of the european union well, of course, the only question is whether there is such a reserve of solidarity and political will to be applied in hungary, and as most countries of the european union believe, there are problems with the rule of law, very difficult problems and it has been going on for a long time, and if it drags on, it must be corrected, and in my opinion, the decision of the european courts , including the decision that suspends the money that is formally allocated in the budget of the european

union for hungary, they are serious and if hungary does not continue to correct the problems with by the rule of law, the unallocated money can become permanent, and then there may be more difficult moments. and it depends on the decisions of the european court, whether the member states of the european union will want to go for it, as of today, i am not sure, and since some more complicated processes have to be started in relation to hungary , it shows the weakness of the european union in relation to putin and eventually to china, but the fact that they will try to legally and politically bring it to an end is 100%. since playing the game stranger among his own

no one will allow his hunchback among strangers. look, he tried to disagree with the membership of finland and sweden in nato. as a result, he received for this , including the fact that the ukraine nato commission will continue at the level of the ministry without any hearings. psykiv said that from the hungarian side, this does not mean that we have solved this problem, because now the hungarian government will most likely transfer its blockade to its rural wars, and this is serious, because in order to start negotiations on any to finish the chapters at all, there is a need to have a consensus of yesivsk well, nevertheless

, let’s look at the fact that nato and the eu react much more quickly to the antics of hungary, this is actually important and even inspiring . my inner impression is that they are maturing to more serious things and this means that no one will react to every statement of orbán, but 100% will react to non-compliance with the key principles of nato and the european union we see such a very careful process so far, eh, have you heard that the americans are already starting to sort of think about it? i say sort of, because these are materials from the changes, but

by the way, including from the hungarian ones, to think about some sanctioning things. to pass which i am absolutely sure does not want to and cannot really continue further, we will definitely follow this so, well, let's talk about well , we can also draw some conclusions . -e has passed and well, i would like to hear your opinion about how dangerous it is for ukraine, that's all they put out, well, first of all , not only those who are engaged in geopolitics, foreign policy , security policy, but also military experts, i rewatched part of it .

documents, i will honestly say that i did not have time for all of them, but i looked over some of them, looked at the conclusions of those whom i respect as military experts, and what i hear is actually, well, it is important. it is confidential , there are very important and sensitive nuances, but there is something critical in the language that we did not even know and that was not guessed, well, in these documents there are, of course, very important hints and pieces of information that, for example, it seems that egypt wanted to supply aircraft weapons or whether they were to be supplied to the seventy. there are interesting things about the position of china, which for china seems to be a red line, our important systematic strikes on the territory of russia, but in general, experts have been discussing this for a long time, so we can say that

this development has a fundamental effect on our strategy, definitely not on any tactical things, and here we are at the beginning they said that before the meeting of the seven foreign ministers, the chinese decided at the ministerial level to say that they would not supply aircraft weapons to russia, but this was also direct or mediated by the answer to the leak where it was said that there is apparently reliable data that the chinese can supply these aircraft weapons because i certainly don't want to promote any conspiracy theories here, but if this leak did not exist, in what sense would it be necessary to invent

it there, the chinese are already reacting in egypt, they are reacting in the emirates, they are reacting well, and above is also fine you understand that we don't know how authentic all these documents are, some of them are definitely manipulated and we also know that, so to say that it somehow affects our plans is not clearly clear , let's go before i ask you a question next, let's listen to what the head of the organization, which calls itself the russian orthodox church , kirill, said on saturday before the service, lord. i pray that the lord blesses the russian land when i mean and say russian i mean the russia from which came the great

russians and the ukrainians, the little russians and other nationalities, but the same russia with which we are all connected historically, spiritually, if you want , civilizationally, the lord will help us through the trials that we have now place again to find peace, well, it is reasonable to talk about the peace of obriz after they created it, but the question is not about that, mr. pavlo . please tell me, a person who has influence on tens and maybe even hundreds of millions of russians speaks ukrainian did not say such things about malaros ukrainians, did he say ukrainians , i don't even remember. and tell me, please. it can be considered that this is a direct call from his mouth to the russians to continue the war, that is, come to the mobilization, uh, don't hide from it

to come and continue to fight so that finally this peace in eternal russia has come like this he is no longer a person who for me for you for people who share normal human values ​​is spiritual according to me he is a kind of leader eh i do not know the religious department at they appointed him to the putin administration , he is doing his work and he will continue to say everything that they consider to be part of the dialogue of this empire, i.e. русский мир. they are not able to understand this, but even in

this expression, they are even russians , they share something, and they seem to be so big in quotation marks, and we are like, uh, in quotation marks , we are always of some third party or something of the fifth grade, and this is very strong in the countries of mentality in their consciousness and subconsciousness, if they wanted some kind of peace , just some kind of conversation. but they don't think so and will never consider us equal, perhaps some generations to come, but this russia is 100% of its population also uh, also no, and

there is no society in our sense there, there is a population, and this statement by the way, it's very cool that the one you quoted is the epitome of that that they even divide their fictitious russian world into those who are first and those who are second and third and fourth and so on. and they assigned their mentalities to us as third-class people, we proved to them completely different , but they will always repeat it because this reality is without this dialogue, without these screeches, that’s what they call it, it simply does not exist. and what kirila is saying. well, let him tell himself, how do you react to me ? there is no need to react to this in any way, but continue to tell it to the west and not to the western world.

here is a classic example for you, when they try to accuse us of the fact that we understand the real meaning of the uoc, the uoc, the mp. after that, nothing more is needed, about 120 seconds, if even less and nothing more, i thank you for paying attention to exactly this division, which is in these words, because i was paying attention to others there words, but this division really exists, and they divided us in their russian world into big and small. well, maybe there are some middle belarusians, maybe there are. and really, i thank you very much for this, but look, anyway

. well, as you already said it there is some religious unit under the kremlin and it is headed by this man who calls himself the patriarch of the rpc organization, he makes this call before they say that a new wave of mobilization may begin in russia, and you have already partially answered my question, which i want to ask, but i want to hear yours again opinion, that is, if there will be this mobilization and after, for example, the russians are even pushed to this mobilization, that is, they will just go like sheep and be recorded like this, and i think that they will act in a different way, they have now approved the law on electronic register, electronic summons now this is a classic digital gulag, and if you do not confirm receipt of the suspension, everything can be taken from you, for example, a driver's license or some theoretical rights to property

, since everything will be in the register, everything will be absolutely to be controlled and i think that they will try to do hidden mobilization . they will not make waves , they understand very well that the russians do not like it. they always do not have any democratic or other explosions. they will try to sweat it out or redeem themselves in their own way. it will work out. well, what should they do? run abroad and pass, it will be more difficult. but nevertheless, i think they will now look for eh volunteers volunteers eh , there will be riots. well, as always, eh, in this country they will look for them we need this cannon fodder and now putin has shown everything to everyone, that is, the mess with the military commissars

, we see everyone, and if you say something wrong, you will quickly be affected at the front or , of course, somewhere in prison . what we don't have is putin's dictatorship, which is now supported by both a digital digital dictatorship and a military dictatorship. that is, this classical design dictates as such. by the way, the model is fundamentally different from the chinese one, where there is also digital surveillance and monitoring but nevertheless, the chinese are still autocrats and not a classic dictatorship like putin's regime, mr. pavla, what do you think about national protest movements , er, which, well, now they are only abroad, somewhere

someone is sitting in poland, somewhere someone is sitting, and deeper in europe they are gathering there bashkirs from kalma and others are gathering for the meeting , very loud statements that putin must be overthrown , are you serious about this or not ? he is sitting abroad, er, bringing someone in a wagon, as they once brought lenin, is unlikely to succeed in today's reality, and we see that the russian population in a dominant sense supports putin and his regime, but what i see are complex discussions in the russian elites who do not really want to become fully a eurasian state, they do not want to be completely dependent on china, because they perfectly

understand that the chinese will definitely use them. i also understand how a generational conflict is gradually unfolding in russia , because the generation that remembers soviet no one has already listed the union, but the youth still wants some kind of future. so it is slowly unfolding. but this will also be the third line of tension. as you said, these are some national movements. moreover, i think they are quite skeptical about what is happening in the north caucasus. but i i believe that the potential of such movements in siberia. by the way, volga is definitely there. there is considerable dissatisfaction with the looting of resources that are considered a national issue. only in who will lead it, there are no charismatic democrats there.

criminal networks and if one of the criminals leads these so-called national movements or uses such a real, real mood, it will not be ordinary, uh, some kind of personification of democracy, although today i do not see prospects for the individualization of some kind of democracy in principle in russia, but the lines of tension that i am talking about i said what i clearly see, mr. pavlo, well, and the last question for you, er, i. please tell me that the delegation of russia has not yet issued them, led by the minister of foreign affairs, sergei lavrov. why have they not issued visas yet? to the united states of america to participate in the meeting of the un security council, which he is to chair

. such trolling i think that the americans will not cross the red line of the existence of the security council as such and the un, but the patrol price and in principle a good tool because russia is political with its presidency in the un, you won't win anything do you understand this for everyone who is not pavlo 15-20 seconds due to lack of time but nevertheless patrols of russia we are so self-inflicted, we are so harshly harsh, this is what is needed now and i, my calcium, are doing it in this sense, they are well done and really well done, it looks good from the side very nice, and how are you, as you already said, i guess lavrov is walking around his offices somewhere, now in the corridors, thinking, oh , never. thank you. they won’t let you go, yes, yes, mr. pavlo. thank you very much for participating in my

program. it was pavlo klimkin, a diplomat. minister of foreign affairs of ukraine 2014-2019 years, we talked about many things, as always it was interesting to talk with him. well, i'll sum up very quickly who's who . 182 people are watching us on youtube right now . it's not bad. i would like more. 195 people have put their favorites. those who will still watch , please put them as favorites if you like them. you don't like the program, if you don't like it. well, write something. well, i thank everyone who watched us on the espresso broadcast. to everyone who watched on youtube. thank you for being with us and see you next week at the usual time of 12:00 about 13 and now don't switch our broadcast continues and intercepts it my colleague serhii rudenko and his verdict serhii i congratulate you on the word yura congratulations literally in a few seconds the verdict begins