[000:00:00;00] between western leaders and germany, whose population resisted any form of rearmament when the german reunification took place on october 3, 1990. the former german democratic republic also joined nato after the restoration of state independence in 2006. montenegro joined the nato program partnership for peace through for three years , it became a member of the membership action plan, but since 2010, the country took an active part in the nato-led operation in afghanistan without being a member of the alliance, officially a member of nato montenegro became on june 5, 2017, cooperation between nato and finland began in 1994, when the country joined the partnership for peace program. finland is one of the most active partners of the alliance, in particular , participating in operations in the balkans in

afghanistan and in cancer. finland submitted an official application to join nato only in 2022, after the full-scale invasion of ukraine by russia, and it became a member of the alliance in april of this year, well, we have seen examples when, well , let's say, not quite typical joining the alliance, boss, we have a question for you we all understand well that one obstacle for ukraine to become a member of nato is its own reluctance to take a collective action and nato itself to enter into a direct confrontation with the nuclear russian federation because, well, in their opinion, this could lead to a nuclear apocalypse. how do you think this fear is reduced? e entering into a conflict with the russian federation, because we understand that in one way or another they faced each other in other theaters of hostilities in syria, there were clashes in other

countries as well. but in ukraine , for some reason, they are afraid. nato we well understand that the reason for this war is muscovy's attempt to return its geopolitical ukraine to muscovy and bronism is impossible without ukraine, muscovites will never accept their non-prestigious origin from the tatar-mongol horde and finno-ugric tribes, and to tell the truth, moscow's imperial under-elites are fixated on the problem these ukrainians, can there be a nuclear apocalypse around ukraine now in part of ukraine's movement in nato over the difficult question of the doomsday hour , moved from two minutes to 90 seconds, this did not happen even during the caribbean crisis so that we understood how seriously the people dealing with this issue evaluate this issue, but at the same time, it seems to me that somewhere and overheat the nuclear zhukov why. because from the point of view of the russian federation, especially the latest legislative acts on the inclusion

of ukraine, forgive the inclusion of the occupied regions of ukraine in their administrative-territorial part, we are already largely fighting on their territory, if we look at the problem through their eyes, is there an alternative for ukraine to join nato, in my opinion, there is no exception a direct military alliance of ukraine with the usa is possible. 19 countries have had such a direct military alliance since 1987, and israel, pakistan , south korea, japan, australia, new zealand, and many countries have had such a alliance since 1987. even in the 22nd year, qatar and colombia formed such an alliance. maybe this is also a direction that is worth thinking about first of all. well, how will all these actions take place in reality? it is very difficult to say my opinion now. i could be wrong. i even want to be wrong. the real conversation

will only happen when this phase ends. the russian-ukrainian war of artists let's give a map let's see what the whole world would look like if ukraine also joined nato, it's about the fact that russia would somehow be in such isolation, and here's what it could mean for russia if it is surrounded by countries- members of nato, we are moving very smoothly to another important aspect of our conversation on this topic, your answer and how it will affect russia. what do you think? well, it is already obvious that the war is ongoing on the territory of russia , including not on the scale in which, unfortunately continues on the territory of ukraine, but constant explosions and bombs and rockets that fall in the center of the city bomb themselves, you know how many of them how long was this meme to bomb voronezh

, and it turned out that they bombed bilhorod well, i think , first of all, that sooner or later it will be transferred to the territory to russia, in what form is this another question, but as the situation on the fronts of the russian-ukrainian war is developing , sooner or later, in one form or another, hostilities will take place on the territory of russia, there is no need to be afraid of this, this is my first conclusion that it concerns nato, well, look what can be stated precisely and clearly, well, to our great regret, we will not become nato members in july, and the reasons are clear, there is no consensus, but more deeply, the west is simply not ready to fight on our side against russia, and uh, in many analytical centers understanding this problem, the task was given to look for alternatives to this, and one of the alternatives was born to offer ukraine a plan of action regarding membership, it is unlikely that the ukrainian political leadership will accept this

idea now, well, in the end, it is enough was late, especially against the background of the accelerated adoption of finland, and i hope that now sweden is so easy to say in vilnius that ukraine will one day be a member of nato, this is a mockery because it is to repeat the thesis of fifteen years ago, and therefore, understanding this unpleasant situation for the west, secretary general stoklyn came to kyiv and said that the formula will be like this: you will become a member of nato on the second day after the end of the war, and this is a dangerous proposition , because imagine putin who turned on the tv and listened to the secretary general of nato say that he will take over ukraine, dad, on the second day after what is the conclusion of the mathematical arithmetic that follows from this not to end the war on the other side that and what is considered the end of the war and here how many politicians how many versions will there be and what is considered the end of the war

classically this is the signing of a peace treaty so it will not be signed also in the west there will be nato immediately 3-4 countries that zaya, yes, the war is not over, well, the hostilities have stopped , the war is not over, and now, understanding, understanding this difficult situation, our leadership, through the mouth of the minister of foreign affairs, offered counter thesis, give us a concrete plan on the points of what we have to do to become nato members. that's why my conclusion will be more pessimistic than optimistic. i think that ukraine will be offered in some form to become a nato member after the war. well, what words will it be said ? and probably ukraine will achieve some kind of list of points that will include security anti-corruption points and so on that ukraine must fulfill and as stoltenberg stated, we all

listened to him very well in kyiv, who said that in vilnius we we will conduct a dialogue regarding the pace of the opportunity for ukraine to join nato in a certain number of years, well, this is such an unpleasant situation for us, well, i think that it will be impossible to break it, even in spite of the fact that you are now in the american congress . most likely, a resolution will be voted, what should we actually consider the end of the war and the victory of ukraine is the exit at the border in 1991 , the physical exit at the border. and there is also a point that ukraine should be accepted into nato as soon as possible . i think that a quick marriage to nato does not work for us it is not only our problem and not so much our problem, it is a problem of a collective effort, we must speak frankly about it in this studio and we must speak frankly about it to our western partners, the problem is not ours, the problem is theirs, but they are looking for problems in us, and this is for

we are in a very difficult, difficult situation of searching for an alternative. i agree with you, ivan petre. there are almost no alternatives . it is clear that everyone. it won't work in ukraine, unfortunately, it won't work, but the version from montenegro works like that with bulgaria, with slovakia, it works like that with a small country, in the version with ukraine it won't work like that, and it drags for us the search for some, hmm, some special options. i think that the alternatives are because we we shout loudly and demand that we accept nato from the point of view, well, at the level of rhetoric, no , but at the level of practical policy , we will be forced to look for alternatives.

by mr. taras that 15 years ago, nato acted in relation to ukraine , to put it mildly, not quite fairly, and they now have to share the responsibility, why did the war start in the 14th year, we had a different decision then , the war did not take place, russia did not dare to attack, but it seems to me that yesterday's telephone conversation between the leader of china and zelensky can change the position of the security alliance. alarming because they called it not a war, but a ukrainian conflict or a ukrainian crisis. the first, the second, as a mockery, they send a special representative who was the ambassador of china

to russia from the 19th, or rather from the ninth to the 19th. i don't want to name his last name because it it is somewhat consonant with the russian mother. and it seems to me that the entry of china itself can change the position of nato because, especially the united states, it may become what was said by mr. turn, that it is possible that the united states will propose a separate security agreement between the united states and ukraine because in other case then china becomes an interesting geopolitical rook, and here ukraine can be a hostage, and on the other hand, it can play on our side to push for specific, faster, faster decisions precisely at the vilnius summit of nato oleg synyutka i believe that the thesis about

the fact that the problem of ukraine's accession to nato is a problem of the western countries of nato. i am convinced that by speculating on such things , we can allow erroneous geopolitical steps on our ukrainian side, because this is the problem of ukraine and ukrainians in the first place first of all our problem - this is our country - this is our nation, this is our land and we should think first of all how to protect it , i think it is not for nothing. the fact that as part of the preparations for the counteroffensive, the member countries provided ukraine with 230 tanks and 1,550

armored vehicles and equipped nine brigades, according to the nato secretary general, which in his opinion is 98% of the promises made by the nato member states, this will be it is very dangerous if the leadership of ukraine if the ukrainian society starts transferring our responsibility to someone else - this is not a war between nato and russia, it is a war between ukraine and russia, it is a war for our independence, it is a war between us and you, because we protect our country, we protect our families, we protect us and you and the issue of joining nato is first of all an issue that ukraine needs, i do not allow other options for weather guarantees, the memorandum of temporary alliances, everything was and very often

proves its ineffectiveness from afghanistan, we unfortunately, we have already seen with the budapest memorandum, we have felt it on our own skin, there is a very clear norm that ukraine should achieve membership of the north atlantic defense alliance, and finland has shown this . i am convinced that in july we will receive a decision on sweden's membership in nato. therefore, we ukrainians need to think about what exactly is necessary to do i think that the option is about that please write the specific steps that need to be taken this is the right option ukraine acted like this when we sought a visa-free regime from the european union then president poroshenko will put write everything you think is necessary, but this should be an excluded list, if we agree on this list for membership in nato, well, in essence , this action plan will begin in nato very clearly, what needs to be done, and we will then understand how quickly we can do it. i am convinced

that we can do it, the question of ukrainian diplomacy today is to agree on all these options as soon as possible, not just uh, big challenges, but i say once again that this is not a problem of the west , this is primarily an issue that ukraine should pursue and in this situation with the door open we can certainly do it much more successfully than it was an attempt to do in 2008, mr. voice. yes, i support mr. blue in that nato is not only the army, it is standard and you. please note that everyone is talking about it, everyone is talking about it. lithuania latvia is talking about it. poland is talking about it, everyone is talking about it, and everyone is saying that we need specific steps to join nato and you can't say, you know, that for some reason they don't take us all at once to take , for example, a simple guy

who is an amateur against a master of international sports class in boxing to let him into the ring and see what will come of it, but here completely different values ​​are invested in those standards , and they foresee first of all that it should be a comfortable rich country, it should be an economy that provides a defense doctrine, it should be human rights, it should be it should be zero tolerance to corruption is the basis, pay attention to what our partners are afraid of. they see everything. i don't want to detail here everything that is happening, everything that is happening with the help of humanitarian aid, everything that is happening in the country inside our country and the most important thing is that you and i are sitting here and we should feel that we live in a state governed by the rule of law, that we have appealed to some authority and heard us, that we are respected if we feel it, this is the nato standard, so

there is no need to say that it is somehow us and someone there is influencing from the other side, there are indeed a number of issues that mr. stetskiv and mykhailo mykhailovych stressed about the fact that there are geopolitical reasons. because before, they were afraid to even say about it, they were afraid to get us because they thought that russia is such a superpower that the problem will start tomorrow but it turned out that this inflated sham burst during the first day of the attack on ukraine and today the north atlantic alliance and today the entire democratic world understood that ukraine must be supported, that is, today ukraine has the good will of all the members of the alliance almost immediately declared that there is everyone's goodwill to the fact that ukraine can be a member of the north

atlantic alliance, but in my opinion today the government should pay more attention to the internal problems that exist so as not to please ourselves that we have already overcome corruption so as not to please ourselves with the fact that we have developed a democratic state and created independent institutions of power. and here you will see that everything will be in the synzipin, which is covered by putin and his delusions about history , so that there is the origin of russia, in his opinion , he is like every dictator does not have reliable information , this is what is written on his forehead, on the other hand, he is very interested in protesting , how will the events of ukraine and the thais be calculated, or will he be able to, if

they manage somehow leave or to get rid of it means then you can deal with taiwan in quotes as he wants it, and based on that, i think that here it can really play in our favor. association, i don't know. i think that there will be a real road map, a concrete road map, at the same time, it's up in the air that i forgot who just emphasized that the congress has two chambers and makes decisions in favor of ukraine, based on the fact that they started saying that support for ukraine will decrease and so on. they said that they support ukraine's membership in nato even with two chambers

, and this one is talking about support, they are talking about returning to the borders of 1991 so that there will be no territorial concessions, even macron, who is playing with two poles there, said that now that there will be no concessions to the territorial integrity of ukraine, i want it to be so . by the way, it is important to ask mr. taras, i will give you the floor now, but you just said that an important element will be what we consider a victory and can it happen that we are considering joining nato on these schalke scales, and on the other, on other theses, there will be a story about the fact that we need to freeze our borders there, as they are now , without luhansk and donetsk regions, without crimea , then what can anyone do in general to offer ukraine, well, that's the crux of the matter, because if we still get stuck in the discussion of what to consider a ukrainian victory, then we can walk these tricks for years. i want

to formulate my main thesis as follows if the collective event wants to be honest with us ukrainians and wants to maintain its leadership in the world and the dominance and spread of the liberal democratic order, he should at the vilnius summit invite ukraine to become a member of nato in the very near future period and then we discuss any agenda. if we are again offered a discourse that something is wrong with us the fight against corruption, that there is something wrong with us in the fight in the institutions of state power , then this is all a pre-war discussion that has very little in common with the reality that arose as a result of large-scale russian invasion, you know, when romania and bulgaria were admitted to nato, they did not even meet

the standards of combating corruption . to be a military component, because if we join nato, being part of the alliance will be much faster and much more effective if you want to overcome corruption and build institutions of state power and much, much more under their supervision provide economic people with the supremacy of human rights, but if the event has some other hidden motives, then we should not be small children and turn a blind eye to it, so i am afraid that such hidden motives exist and we should be very frank, including them. i believe that the ukrainian delegation delegation led by the president should be very frank when the conversation is not simple, i would think that will arise at the summit in vilnius volodymyr oryska minister of foreign affairs of ukraine for 7-9 years

he is the head of the russian research center but let's start talking about nato with you, it's really interesting. taras stetskiv voiced his thesis on our broadcast about possible hidden motives why ukraine is not accepted into nato and good comparisons about bulgaria and romania, about the struggle with turkey, in general, a country that can be i am very careful to say that in some places, what are you waiting for and will it be possible to untie this knot when there really will be no more obstacles for ukraine to join nato? well, it seems to me that the main argument will be the argument on the ground in the event that our heroic armed forces strike a decisive blow against

the russian occupiers, and this will be the most important argument, because in the end, whose concept is the presence or absence of political will? i completely agree with mr. taras on - about the fact that er and not only those countries that he named did not meet nato standards, but also others, let 's remember some balkan countries do not point the finger , as they say will be formed for some specific problems and they certainly there are and we cannot turn a blind eye to them in the same way, our western partners simply will not pay attention and will say that in the process of, so to speak, the final absorption of ukraine into the alliance, what problems that still exist will be gradually but successfully solved

so that believe me, it's not a question of one or another shortcomings. the question is whether the alliance will make a decision for itself. it's very good that now an active group has been formed, which is really storming some capitals that continue to take such a position, both yours and ours again . still referring to the well-known and i'm already fed up with theses about what this can provoke, it's not known what to do, because there's no way to go further in my opinion, and that's why i think that it's hard to work with each member of the alliance, proving and convincing them that there is no other way out in order for the entire territory of the northern er atlantic space er offered peace has no er otherwise

the continuation of the gray zone will meet that war will return, but the truth is already on a much larger and tougher scale we have such a wonderful country called hungary we also know this very well here i think there will be problems to a certain extent. but again, when she is left alone, the only problems will disappear because there will be many ways to put this country in its place . i really hope that brussels will finally understand that it is necessary to give up. from some principles of management of the union, that some things need to be decided in a different way, the rules of the procedure for the adoption of certain things must be changed, nato is turning into the un, i think that it is now clear to everyone mykhailo

tsimbalyuk has a reply and a question, if possible uh, i wish you good health, minister, how do you think, uh, from the height of your political diplomatic experience, uh, the thesis that i was talking about and some are expressing regarding the position of china , which is trying to enter this game, can it push for a collective measure, first of all , the united states because more to more specific decisions, in particular regarding the position of ukraine's accession to nato thank you thank you mr. army to all dear colleagues, health and prosperity as much as possible under the current circumstances, of course you know the role of china is now really becoming very and it seems to me that here we see certain intelligence that can

really preserve the situation or, on the contrary , change it very drastically. in ukraine, let's imagine that russia suffers a military defeat, that it continues to be subjected to tougher economic sanctions, that it is barely making ends meet, that it does not have enough resources to carry out an aggressive policy that it is finite accounts are beginning to pour in a little bit. and this, i think, is a very realistic scenario, which, by the way, i wrote about a large-scale invasion was launched, and then china has a problem, because it finds itself in fact

alone in samsk, and it really needs an active measure will have at least such an existing ally as the russian federation, and in such a situation he will do, in my opinion, everything that depends on him to preserve it, perhaps i, and he will also work to ensure that it remains as a geopolitical reality or is it up to us profitable definitely no, i very much doubt that er china sincerely plays some er mediating role, we hear what we read and see , they say that he is playing for the evening on the air in promised from ukraine live from london yevgenia shadlovska and today in the issue we will show a bbc report from podbakhmut where the ukrainian military says

they are short of ammunition and we will talk about how to get more ammunition for ukraine while the armed forces are preparing for the offensive and in general what the ukrainian offensive will be about ammunition so let's talk about the ammunition that the ukrainian military needs to repel russian attacks in order to launch a counteroffensive. but first