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a ukrainian perspective spotlight ukraine new project of the espresso channel a project about the war and ukraine spoglat ukraine a product that is made better by journalists and experts inform analyze forecast spotlight ukraine exclusive interviews with foreign guests politicians diplomats economists military spoklat ukraine the key to how we will live in the next few years spoklat ukraine with volodymyr by ostapchuk every sunday at 21:00 on espresso greetings dear tv viewers , professor

samuel totten, a person who professionally worked studying the genocides of ireland in the sudan and now the professor works in ukraine. i congratulate you, professor, studio espresso, the key story is how what they did in our country falls under the category of genocide, because very strange voices are heard when they say what, in particular, when the representatives of the united nations speak so that whatever was created by the russians does not fall under the concept of genocide . unfortunately, until the intentions of the criminal are unknown, it is difficult to make a final decision about whether something is genocide, murder, torture or mass murder is not necessarily genocide, it can be just mass murder or torture , it is necessary to find out what the criminal's intention is when he or she commits specific atrocities , i know that the united nations recently published a long report in which

what happened in ukraine is not considered genocide. i questioned such analysis because i do not believe that anyone can now accurately determine what goal putin is pursuing, in order for something to be recognized as genocide, there must be an intention of total or partial destruction, many will say that there is the intention to kill people, but it must be a specific intention, if the prosecutor's office cannot prove the intention, then there is no genocide, but my position is that there is one obvious case that is genocide by its nature , but for some reason the un does not think so, it is about children who were taken from their relatives in russia and sent to russian families , they went to school there, live in a new culture and undergo indoctrination according to the convention on genocide, take children away from their relatives, give them to other families, indoctrinate them into a new

culture, this is genocide judging by how many the children were taken away and what they are going through now. this is her clear example of genocide. he usually hesitates not wanting to do anything. it would be better if they did not publish such a position because it sends the wrong signal to the whole world. well, accordingly, how can we collect such evidence. accepted all over the world in all international institutions yes, we understand that the international criminal court has already issued a warrant for putin's arrest, so we are talking about the case of abduction of ukrainian children, but we understand that there are a number of other crimes that should be documented and properly qualified. personally, i think that too many people are worried about whether it is genocide or not, crimes against humanity, torture, mass murders, people wanted for execution, this is

the worst that can happen, so if you are the type tried for crimes against humanity, they will sit in the business card for so long no matter how much they were sentenced for genocide, the icc does not have the death penalty, therefore the maximum punishment that an individual criminal can receive is life imprisonment, i think that the scenario of the international criminal tribunal will be repeated in the former yugoslavia and rwanda, the prosecutors will study the evidence, they will try to establish whether there was an intention of complete or partial destruction. if so, they will recognize that it is genocide , if not, they will all be tried for crimes against humanity or war crimes. it seems that people have an idea of ​​genocide as something sacred , but not everyone these other crimes, which i have already said , are just as terrible as genocide. but we want them to be called genocide . as far as i understand, in ukraine, thousands of people are collecting testimonies

, and many ukrainians have come to study as conducting interviews with victims and witnesses and this is reasonable because these people know the language and do not need to use an interpreter but there are people like me who come with an interpreter who have experience in the field of crimes against humanity and genocide who ask questions trying to to ask people in more detail what exactly happened and who committed these atrocities , such testimonies are very important, but even if it was not possible to collect a single testimony in newspapers in magazines around the world we saw the places of mass murders in ukraine in buch and in other cities, if people are interested, they don't care about the fate of others and they know exactly what is happening, such evidence is important for the prosecutor's office to find out exactly what these crimes are, so we hope to imprison the guilty, if not, then

at least 20-30 years since this will actually be life imprisonment for many, but the professor would like to ask you how we should deal with the qualification of war crimes committed in mariupol. yes, we understand that there were no machetes there , they did not cut off the head of the mosque, but they they used aviation, they used long-range artillery, they dropped an aerial bomb on the theater where people were hiding, peaceful people, women, people, there are recorded testimonies of those people who can describe what happened there, those people were alive, so they drove, they learned a little, everything was in blood, everything was internal , everything was in broken heads how do we properly prove these crimes so that not only the executor but the people at the top of the kremlin pyramid could not hide like that because the army structure provides for

subordination from the lowest to the highest level yes, we understand that this is the responsibility not only of the pilot, not only of the aviator, not only of his commander, yes, and this goes to the very top , again, we focus on genocide as if this is the only thing that needs to be blamed on criminals in order to bring them to justice, this is not the case in every war is not genocide, but every war is accompanied by artillery bombardment with mortars , mining, and executions in the style of nz groups in ukraine and the soviet union. crimes are very important each of these crimes is a terrible atrocity in terms of war crimes we know that the russians beat the schools where the children were located we know that they attacked hospitals along with doctors nurses patients pregnant mothers and babies these are 100% war crimes and they should be

in "prison as much as prosecutors can get for each specific case, in order to call a war genocide, it is necessary to find the criminal's intention to completely or partially destroy a certain group of people, what should be understood by genocide we do not say about the destruction of individuals, genocide is the destruction of groups according to the un convention on genocide, there are four groups under protection: national groups, racial groups, ethnic groups , and religious groups; now, these four groups have been somewhat expanded as a result of the activities of the international criminal tribunal for rwanda and the former yugoslavia, which you mentioned may end up being interpreted as genocide if the intention is proven, but personally for me the most important thing is that the guilty are brought to justice if the international criminal court does not reach a conclusion

that this person is general putin . his kremlin accomplices committed genocide, so ukrainians should not be disappointed because if they are found guilty of crimes against humanity and war crimes, they can still serve life imprisonment or a long term of imprisonment, so this issue of genocide is excessive complicates the situation if we talk, for example, about the measurement of certain data regarding war crimes or manifestations of genocide, such as how to do it in order to correctly build, for example, the current ukrainian case , the case of russian crimes in ukraine, so with on the one hand , we regularly hear the language of hatred that flows from russian propaganda channels , some of the russian kremlin high-ranking officials deny ukraine's right to full state sovereignty, to full state sovereignty. further

, i.e. they are trying to convince the whole world and themselves that we do not exist, this is one moment, the second moment we understand that it is necessary to document not only crimes in the fields, so to speak. and what is called the crimes of the top military leadership and it was extremely difficult to do, for example, in the situation with the third rail. so we understand how fruitfully the nuremberg investigative tribunal had to work in order to prove that between the specific crimes committed by representatives of the wehrmacht and nazi military formations and the german main leadership the leadership of the nsdr was directly in touch how to do it just like the prosecutors did it in nuremberg

just like the prosecutors in the mkt and in matters in the iss, that is, to collect all the data that can be obtained every time putin speaks on television or radio, collect those recordings and comments because he said certain things about the fact that ukraine is not a sovereign state, that it is part of russia, that he wants to return what he considers it to be russian territory, but he is wrong, ukraine is a sovereign state, whether putin wants to admit it or not, he committed international criminal crimes against it, there are no justifications for it. although he can deny it all day long, also within the framework of documentation, you fix where exactly what kind of weapons were used ?

eyes saw what these criminals did, this is priceless information. so, you are collecting evidence that will later show the world exactly what putin did, the war crimes he committed, the crimes against humanity committed by russian soldiers on the ground and acts of genocide that they committed in buch, in particular, but there are many places of mass murders. and i feel that, unfortunately, even more of them will be discovered, and this may lead to the decision that it was such an intention to try to destroy part of the ukrainian people, and this is something very important. if we talk about genocide with interviews i conducted i understand that often when the russians entered a city or village, one of the first things they did was to find out who were the leaders and somehow eliminate them, this happened in many genocides , it was the same in cambodia, it was the same in rudy

you go in and take away the leaders and then the community starts to fall apart so it's part of the genocide so all of this needs to be taken into account i think it's quite clear to the world unless you're an ally of russia who is driven by the lies that putin is spreading that ukraine is not a sovereign state that absolutely untrue, a complete lie and in a certain sense this is the same as what stalin did in 1932-33, he came to ukraine, starved people and basically treated ukraine as a component of the soviet union and people as individuals who have no importance he behaved with them as he wanted, killing en masse, so certain patterns were preserved that we can see. now i mean the famine in ukraine, about which there was a debate for decades, whether it was genocide or not in the end. people like james mace, who came from the united states to ukraine, taught at kyiv university, he

i was one of those who conducted a study that showed that it was actually a genocide. i will look into the facts . i think that in many cases, due to the collected evidence, schemes of attacks , schemes of destruction of entire communities, schemes of destruction will be considered. or the murder of leaders, the smell of kidnapping children, so i am convinced that the leaders, including putin, will not be able to avoid responsibility for crimes committed and crimes against humanity or genocide, yes, noginocide implies a criminal intent, in addition to all that, in addition to the characteristics you described, and speaking of the famines , about james mays, the most important, most difficult thing was probably to prove that there was a plan that caused the deliberate destruction of millions of ukrainians. so it was an extremely difficult

job and we understand what forces resisted it so that the truth about the then-genocide against the ukrainians could be conveyed for the insumeis jim was madly passionate about ukraine, he loved ukraine and really wanted the world to understand what happened to the ukrainian people, jim diligently collected testimonies about what happened to people when people from tallinn came from tallinn with iron kruts and digging they tried to find even seeds in the ground, they dug in fireplaces , sifted through cold ashes to find seeds , what was the intention of collecting as much documentation as possible, and also wanted the us government to recognize that this was a soviet artificial famine in in ukraine, jim wanted people to know that this famine was created artificially, it was not about the sun, not about the lack of water, not about the drought, everything was planned and carried out vertically from stalin to the bottom, i will say that he achieved his goal when he headed the us commission on famine in ukraine and

the documentation he collected was huge and then his goal was to come to ukraine and conduct further research actually go to russia and find archives there which no one has ever researched and find out exactly what the plan was but he was killed halfway he was a young man his he was beaten and shortly after that he died. i think that he crossed the path of someone in russia with his plans, not knowing that someone would follow in jim's footsteps. he was a brilliant scientist of his time, he was a professor at harvard. and his whole life was devoted to conveying to people that hunger in genocide in ukraine was actually the responsibility of the church, which saw or perhaps sometimes participated in war crimes or acts of genocide. in particular , it is about the classic scheme that was

in ireland, maybe in sudan. i don't know. what was happening in sudan, but it is also a question of the russian orthodox church when it hears the voice of hatred that pours literally from russian tv channels and how it behaves in that situation. so in the new we understand that patriarch kirill supports putin's policy. putin's policy manifests itself in what tens of thousands ukrainians killed here, i agree with you 100%. we did not see this in sudan, but we saw it in roland uranda . there were priests who called on the people here, those who became victims to come to churches as a place of refuge. these priests were hutu. relatives of the hutu killers and when they came to the churches, the priests locked the doors behind them and then invited the killers to torture them to death. also, as you know , there was a radio station run by an extremist and

every morning they called the hutu to go to work, and work was a euphemism for murders, and so every morning here there is a direct parallel between what is happening in ukraine and those ukrainian priests who essentially support putin. as far as i understand, they are collaborators of ukraine who speak on the radio or talk to the press cooperate with putin against ukraine in order to force or try to force ukraine to submit to the will of the russians and this is an international crime ready to say here and now that many of these priests will end up on the dock in the international criminal court and therefore in prison where they will have time to think that they are not real christians and political agents of putin and how long does the investigation of cases in international criminal tribunals last in general, in particular , how long is the evidence base collected, how long are

all the materials qualified, checked, well the key story, we understand that the case can be investigated for a year or two, and it can be extended for five or 10 years. i think that the trials will last quite a long time. as for the individual trials of individual criminals, it is difficult to say because there are lawyers who will trying to get these criminals out of custody, so it may take a long time, but i think that ukraine is doing very wisely by collecting documentation right now. ukraine is not waiting until the war is over, until all are committed atrocities, she is already collecting documentation. the international court of justice is currently in the process of collecting documentation, and this should significantly speed up the consideration of these cases than it was . for example, in rwanda, because the collection of these testimonies began only after the genocide ended there, they were collected, but not to the extent that we we see in ukraine, this is a very

unique situation in which ukraine is now at stake. i think that not only will more alleged criminals end up in court, but also at the initial stage the court will move quite quickly thanks to the collected documents and accordingly thanks to this collection of evidence, more potential criminals will be brought before the tribunal. and what, for example, was especially infuriating to you in those situations when the criminals who should have been responsible should have been imprisoned for life or received 150 years for the crimes they committed. when they managed to avoid responsibility, it is of course alarming in fact, i know that in the case of rwanda, there is a priest who was the main priest in kigali, the capital of rwanda, he used the church as a sanctuary. these are his words, he invited tutsi potential victims there.

provided them with lodging and food, but every night during the week he approached young women and said that he wanted to sleep with them if they refused then he also gave the women to murderers and that was the end of it. this man has not yet been found guilty and he lives quite luxuriously in france. absolute absurdity and if someone seems to avoid punishment, then something is wrong something is wrong with the system because these people should be brought to justice and if this does not happen, then it is unfair to other criminals this is not is fair to ukraine and something needs to be done about it. you probably know that the international criminal court can try as many criminals and alleged criminals as it wants, if ukraine thinks that they are not doing the work that they think they should do, then ukraine has the right to hold national courts or create a national court to try such criminals, it seems to me that the international criminal court

takes this issue very seriously and wants to bring criminals to justice , starting with putin at the top. it is with great regret that i have to end our conversation, i am sincerely grateful to our tv viewers, i want to remind our tv viewers that professor semyul toten, a person who professionally studied genocides and war crimes, in particular, worked for roland in sudan, now works for them on the espresso tv channel, even there is a well-known international expert who is in washington ramis yunus glory to ukraine remis bey salaam alaikum waleikome salam i greet you , thank you for the invitation, glory to the heroes prime minister of armenia mykola pashinyan recognized azerbaijan's territorial sovereignty over karabakh, it is very difficult to predict how events will unfold, but

at least we can see that a certain process has begun , although maybe we are all wrong and this is a certain threat, then it is so clear for the simple reason that it is no longer this is the first time he has said that, so for the last time, let's say half a year, this is already the second or third time . he is speaking for the first time. year, then it had the effects of an exploding bomb, both inside armenia itself and abroad, but if we understand where the legs grow from here, then it will be clear what the current statement is related to, as the services of the second karabash war, the status of the circle in the region has changed, and they lived there 30 years ago the main players were moscow , paris and washington, and who did nothing within the framework of the minsk group, that is, the conflict remained frozen, roughly speaking .

have done what you are now going to do. and we already did it after the old karabash war and when we did it, of course, eh , and then the conflict between western russia and the importance of this region is returning, and of course not here and brussels, washington, but after 2018, if you remember poshinyan came, it seems, with western slogans in sevro-integration, with western direction , the vector of its outer shelves, and of course the west was interested in peace in this region , but how will peace in this region end? it is necessary to make sure that the azerbaijani armenians were wrong. well, of course, it was not. this caused great trouble on the part of the two other players who historically commanded the parades here , this is russia's ira. on the one hand , brussels and washington on the other, and this continues to this day, and when brussels became actively involved in the negotiation process, it was a sharmish head. we did not meet four times, then remember the historical standing in the same road, then in your tone, we met under

the leadership of the same pancake where the representative of the two countries and how will the movement go, the right direction, yes, every time, as only the west showed diplomatic activity in this issue immediately there was some kind of escalation either on the border between azerbaijan and armenia or zhenya , and then inside the karabakh enclave , which is under the control of the so -called peacekeepers, yes, and instantly everything i went to the net again. and here you are. what happened, uh, and pashinyan made this type of statement, just as i have already noted several times to different judges and yours, he is sitting on two chairs. yes, that is, in the western direction and in the russian , iranian direction today you will not even believe, dear anton, how much there is about iranian sentiment in the army, and it is much stronger even than a sprout , because russia has passed on the ukrainian-russian front, yes. even in this very dawn, plus there are now talks about ending

the military strategic alliance with a stronger force than with russia, so that it is precisely where they came from, others say that the west will look at it negatively, then there might be a sense to do it with the hands of proxy forces, well, such as there was hamas, this is the type, yes. and this is increasing today against the background of the confrontation between azerbaijan and iran . in the last time , what kind of search was there? толко зашёл talk about the fact that azerbaijan and armenia should meet in the near future, you say that washington will meet in the next few days, this meeting is being prepared handsome and instantly watch three provocations in this week literally three or three or four days ago in front of a kitten in the center of yerevan the european weightlifting championship is opening. he is sitting in the hall. this is the first person of the state . another 7 security guards should be there . the president of the international weightlifting federation is opening there.

there was an alphabet in a letter and come out to us girl with the flag of azerbaijan to music all or 4 variants of secretization some man comes out calmly approaches sets fire to the azerbaijani flag takes them runs out of the hall he is detained after 24 he is a national hero of the army or pashinin the security forces do not control the situation or is it double game or rye provocation that is of all forces within the army of the wrong pro-russians who are not interested in the peace treaty, this is the background that is flying away, and against this background , he is eager to make this next statement he is the same because he repeated it, this does not mean that the topic of karabakh is closed , you know, because karabakh is for them . this is how russia is today. when the situation has found you in a situation like ours and how do you plan to do it now the question arises or does it persist if you refuse to make it public he comes publicly

it says this and from the other side every hour 360 million dollars from the budget of armenia go to these separatists. that's how moscow supports this so-called dnr, lnr budget, and they're all over there, plus there are more than 10,000 according to one data. the dnr russian troops are standing and they say it is the defense army of the dpr lnr, but don't you say it is the defense army of karabakh yes, this type is also the peace of the rotsii, their roofs are there, and tanks are armored vehicles. according to the law, for 2.5 years, when the peace treaty was signed , they were supposed to be there to protect the peacekeepers who were supposed to ensure the integration of the armenian population into the azerbaijani legal field for five years. there is an ethnic armenian dream with armenian passports citizens of the army and plus today the order of someone is not from the percent russian citizens here are the peacekeepers left to right you already know

their traditions to hand out russian passports therefore, since the peacekeeper was engaged in this, they are the opposite of us today in cultivating this separatism, azerbaijan naturally began to screw up the nuts, therefore , if the united states of brussels does not succeed, it is necessary to take the political path to the same poshinyan or give him carte blanche - it's confidence that he confidently moves towards the peace treaty because i can understand it from one side and i want to and i'm dying and my mother doesn't believe that she'll see the half-pregnant women, so now we need political will or he must get it here is this decisive one from the side of washington or from brussels and lies in azerbaijan will come to accompany the counter through an ethical operation so that all these armed formations from there will issue a second option . this year, or since the end of this situation - there are two more years left until the russian so