[000:00:00;00] it is interesting in the world of russia, we understand wagner, but israel and, er, and turkey, what is there , turkey is also eager to build a port , or rather a base, they even want to restore the old ottoman base there, and on the shore of the red sea, on an island, there is one in the gulf. - and the israelis, of course, are interested in the normalization of relations with sudan, because at least there was progress in accordance with the abrahamic agreements, and sudan undertook to establish diplomatic relations with israel, there was a whole series of negotiations, by the way, on the basis of this, the americans removed them from the list

terrorist countries, countries that support terrorism, yes. and tell me, in principle, you can think that now it is another long-term conflict, that there will be a conflict in africa, a conflict that russia is simply generating conflicts, the united states is already saying that they are preparing for a long-term conflict in sudan because the parties are not interested in negotiations in roughly the same words that they use to characterize the situation between russia and ukraine, well, the parties are not interested in negotiations because everyone wants to get the prize , there is a third player who, in principle, is time, this is a democratic community, well, that is, relatively speaking, the political community of sudan, who are already fed up with the military, and this is for quick reaction, and i think that well, to a certain extent, they will wait to see how the events will unfold, and then try to take the situation under control again when there is a stalemate on the front, it is obvious that

sudan does not have many resources, and if there is no direct interest in the direct supply of weapons from other countries, mainly arab countries, then this conflict may simply burn out after how they will understand that they will not be able to achieve their goals, the key question is the people who will control the charter. and if , after all, the forces of the army of the sudanese army manage to knock out those eh, if the representatives of this pair of these paramilitary units by the force of such eh -e response from the capital, then, in principle, the front will roll back already in the regions, and then it will be a matter of a few weeks, maybe six months, if the situation remains like this, the cardboard will be divided

, the battles will continue, and then well, well, it's obvious that this conflict may drag on, but here i think that first of all, other players should be agreed upon, the same united arab emirates that are. they should agree that they will not support this or that international player, as well. well, from russia, of course, they are a joker there they are trying to deal with him. well, the wagners are like firecrackers, at least yes, and in the arab press, there is a lot of information about this , mostly from the saudi press there and all the others, that is, they

actively promote this topic. not noticed, that is, they do have it cheaper, so they cooperate, well, these gold mines, the arrivals, everything else, that is, we know all this , but we have heard about it. butterflies will fly to the fire well, let's see it's there, everyone is watching, the americans are watching very carefully of course they are already there, they are already there, this gold is satisfied. the mine they control and this is actually in this gold mine, it is their key, well sit, what is it called we thank igor, the director of the center of middle eastern studies. thank you very much. now to religious affairs , george kovalenko, a priest of the orthodox church of ukraine, rector of the open orthodox university of st.

sophia of wisdom, we are in touch. good health, panetets, well, look here now , after the statement, in fact, the epiphany, which is not they see the sense in the union with representatives of the uoc mp well, of some possibilities, one is cross-sectional , so i understand it or not, that is, there was time in dan to think about the collaborators and the time passed when it was possible to unite something, please tell me, mr. george, what do you think, no, i think it's wrong, not quite like that, in fact, from the beginning , it was not about uniting in any way, that is , in fact

it is precisely the orthodox church of ukraine that has always spoken about free voluntary association, that people should freely join and follow that tomos about autocephaly given by the ecumenical patriarch bartholomew. that is, it is a free choice to drive anyone into the local orthodox church of ukraine, because from nothing good will come from this, it's just a continuation of this same line, and again, if you unite, should you unite with collaborators or should you unite with those who profess the russian peace or are agents of the russian special services, here i think that in in this sense, what can there be in common? yes, in darkness and light, good and evil. that is why we are talking about open collaborators and about the fact that the orthodox church of ukraine, in principle, as it has declared, will be verifiable in some sense. yes, on the other hand, the door

of repentance is open to all and if it comes to that a person repents. for example, if he was a collaborator, then he can be accepted, but it is unlikely that such a person will receive any high positions or leadership positions in the ukrainian church. if this person has been in the service of the russian world for a long time, and for those who, well, let's say so in collaborationism, not noticed, not condemned. yes, he is a sincere er, i don’t know, a sincere christian . and indeed, to ukrainian citizens who clearly understand who is the aggressor, er, who understands, er, what the ukrainian people are fighting for and is ready to pray with us for our joint victory then for

such doors of the orthodox church of ukraine continue to be open, but what about the permanent solution to the problem, you see that the ukrainian orthodox church of the moscow patriarchate remains in the kyiv- pechersk lavra, they continue to examine the case in the courts , it loses court after court, but it remains there, the regional councils forbid it pcmp parish or their land is taken from them but all this is happening in the west in the center of the country , a little in the north, as it is there. in sumy region , nowhere else in the country is it unclear what will happen to the church organizations. well, as far as i am concerned i understand, well, the verkhovna rada should, in the near future, still vote on draft laws related to church topics. indeed, in the cabinet draft law proposed by the cabinet of ministers, there is such an opportunity for the state

to ban the activities of those organizations which cooperation with the aggressor country will be proven, in principle, if the violations are not eliminated, what kind of claims will the state have against them and in court, that is, through a certain court procedure, such organizations can stop your activity, but i will repeat the next thing that we are talking about economic activity, legal activity, property activity, and praying in ukraine will not be prohibited , that is, in principle, the moscow patriarchate has already sold to speculate, talking about the persecution of the orthodox church for christ, but literally the other day we met with by the clergy of the ukrainian orthodox church, and they clearly said that

there is no persecution for christ. and it is necessary to talk about it. and it is not only external people who speak about it i don't know from the orthodox church of ukraine or from the ukrainian state. the priests of the ukrainian orthodox church are talking about this , so let's hope that the process of marginalization of the moscow spirit and the moscow type of orthodoxy, yes, because of the ideological nature, it will continue, so it will poison not so quickly , which i would like to go to dynamo , but we hope that everything will be done in a legal way . and you know, the will of the state to clean up , let’s say, this country will not weaken from the real agents of the russian special services, ideologues and propagandists of the russian world. and we will still see, let's say, a new quality, including the kiev pechersk lavra as a museum reserve and spiritual

, historical, religious, educational , and many other interesting, modern and traditional things to do in the lavra and i think that we should also move on to some positive projects that would show what we want to do and what kind of church we want to see and what projects we will do that will show that we are really christians and not ministers and sketch e- e ideology of any kind and that we are really those people who, er, are up and in joy together with their people, but look at what i am reading , these are the numbers, i will now pronounce them, so as far as i can see from various sources, there are 12 thousand parishes of the moscow patriarchate, about 7,000

parishes of the orthodox church of ukraine, but according to surveys, the number of people 10 or 15% trust the uoc mp. this is some complete nonsense yes yes it can't be somehow it can well what can the orthodox church of ukraine do in this situation? i don't know if there is a sociological survey there or just close some uh come what what fake, in fact, well, somehow there are few people, and there are twice as many parishes, five times less, and twice as many parishes, somehow , well, that does not happen . well, first of all, it really does not come so much as statutes, these are legal documents, even those parishes that joined the orthodox church of ukraine

- and and this is still a large number of parishes there, i think that there are at least 2,000. yes, in these parishes, they , as well as persons, remained in these accounts . yes , that is, subtract two more. occupied territories which the moscow patriarchate annexed in the same way that the moscow patriarchate annexed our territories, yes. that is, these are the parishes of the crimea , and these are the parishes of the donetsk region, these are the parishes of the luhansk region, part of the kherson region, and you will get certain numbers again, and i do not think that the people who will be there will ever return under the occupation will very much want to continue to be under the moscow patriarchate. for example, during the liberation of the kherson oblast

. parishes for a certain period were generally empty, and part of the parish is now there, there is this problem, yes, on the other hand, look at sociology , after all, it is more relevant, so to speak, the situation , information, because it is the attitude of society , that is, and if we understand, if it is universentology gives what 60 -70% yes there, well, different data 68 75% of ukrainian believers are orthodox, so they were baptized in the orthodox church yes and if the absolute majority of these people identify themselves with the orthodox church of ukraine, then the process, including legal and property yes, it will also move gradually in the direction when the orthodox church of ukraine and its faithful will really be uh well, at least i don't know how to use the monuments of the history

of our people yes and those parishes that will remain loyal to the moscow patriarchate , they will still exist, but if such a policy as it is now continues, then this is inevitable marginalization and gradually it will be some kind of moscow jurisdiction there will be people who will be as we already see now yes, there is a video of these grandmothers, it seems in pochaev they were filmed and they tell so -and-so well absolutely nonsense yes such people will be, but the more we hear and see them, for example, the fewer people in our society and in our churches will want to associate themselves with them, that is why i think that the process of marginalization of moscow orthodoxy in the ukrainian state and among the ukrainian people is inevitable.

yes, that is, you know, it is very easy to register a fop, but it is very difficult to cancel it later. yes, and if there is still no desire to cancel it . administrative and political, although, to tell the truth, the number of temples controlled by the moscow patriarchate today is still large, including 200 monasteries. yes, there are more than 200 monasteries that are quite rigid. i couldn't imagine that the moscow patriarchate will not serve in the upper lavra, that we, in principle, in the foreseeable future

, we can see that he ... i think that today the dynamics are positive, maybe we would like it to be faster, but i will repeat that a few months ago, we could not even dream of something like this, but please tell me, in principle, do you understand how a certain person watched the hierarchy for so many years? pcmp why they don't want music now they absolutely don't want to keep it cynically speaking why do they continue the line that it was in fact before the war from the point of view of institutional connection of course it doesn't matter, they don't say anything politically what they do from the point of view of the institution will continue to associate themselves with moscow and do nothing to actually break this connection. well, first of all, they probably do not believe in our victory, as it will sound paradoxical for us, they hope that

you will not be transplanted in this way, they will survive with them there is experience, many years of experience of experiencing different authorities in different political situations, that is, they probably rely on this experience from the other side, uh, still, i think that this connection with the moscow patriarchate is also reinforced by the russian special services. maybe with russian money or other er methods yes or levers of influence and this is also a fact plus for sure these people in what sense are hostages of the er picture of the world that they have yes that is , in this picture of the world they feel quite comfortable there, that is, it seems to them that oh-oh somehow they will manage to get through this story maybe even this is for us and you know better if they were in this sense

smarter more cunning uh and more flexible we uh then we would have much more problems with them and so they enough er well, they act in a straight line and make completely inadequate statements in this way, they show their true attitude to the ukrainian state and to the ukrainian people and to the actual war that we are waging against the aggressor. that is, they want to return to the past. maybe they are mentally stuck in it and the future scares them. in the future, sir, please tell me that the greek catholic church so subtly or maybe not so subtly hinted that the pochaiv lavra claims to be the pochaiv lavra, and the orthodox church of ukraine

will not claim what it claims greek-catholics well, somehow it looks organic to me, doesn’t ternopil greek-catholics, well, if they had claims and could very well get what belongs to galicia, as it seems to me. in galicia and in volyn it's just the volyn part of the ternopil region, historically it's volyn i'm sorry the soviet system of division of regions it doesn't correspond it doesn't correspond to historical reality yes and the pochaiv lavra was indeed greek-catholic for a certain period and part of those magnificent cathedrals were built during these times, so the greek catholics really claim to pray in the lavra, just as the orthodox church claims to do so in a certain way , it seems to me that we need to look for this new format

and the use of memory of historical churches and shrines which, in different periods of our history, belonged to different churches and different denominations. well, for example, let's take jerusalem as an example, where different churches and denominations pray in the holy sepulchre. unfortunately, it is far from everyone is now ready for certain compromises for dialogue. but it would be very good if the orthodox church of ukraine demonstrated such readiness, so to speak, and this dialogue between the orthodox and greek catholics, who in principle have the same roots and have a common history . although sometimes tumultuous relations, and not very friendly and fraternal, so to speak, but still we managed to pass this period, we are now in principle in the period when we recognize each other and in principle pray and conduct

a certain dialogue and have educational projects we hope we will have common spiritual projects. because you know what a lavra is in general. what is a lavra like a city? yes, a street, that is, a street with many monasteries, yes, that is, with many communities, so it seems to me that different religious communities should have the possibility of this or that period or under these or those other conditions is to pray, visit, perform ablutions to shrines, but we also need to look for the newest formats and educational and enlightening formats so that after all, monasteries and other monuments function not only as museums reserves where we will say yes in the museum and in such an archaic-ecclesiastical way the tradition is preserved and that we

new traditions were created, including inter-church inter-religion and we showed that we really are a country where freedom is respected a person's choice of conscience as to what institution to believe and to belong to, but we can also demonstrate a certain new format of unity that does not destroy our uniqueness, does not require all of us to necessarily unite in one structure , but still, religious communities must perform religious functions not political no biological not intelligence not propagandistic yes and this is also an important point so let's say yes... the moscow patriarchate still has to go through its period of purification a- and we ukrainian churches need to search not only let's say so revive

past traditions but also create now is such a period that gives an opportunity both in social and political life and in the economy, and i think in the spiritual sphere, to look for this dreamy future, that is , to draw it, and that is, in fact , to articulate it to ourselves in a certain way, but also to embody it already now because you know very often this saying is not at the right time leads to the fact that a lot of things are not done when the window of opportunity opens, now it seems to me that there is a window of opportunity for many things, but we need good will and we need a real dialogue and we need to open, you know, for this dialogue and the mind and the heart and to be really true christians about whom they say that they will know that you are my disciples if you love each other, this love for each other, including

orthodox greek catholics, we have a chance let's say yes, well at least try to demonstrate although i perfectly understand the obstacles and mental historical obstacles on this path, mr. director, so tell us what obstacles i just wanted to tell myself first about co-service, is it possible that in pochaev or anywhere there, because saturdays are sundays there will be greek catholics, on mondays, tuesdays, there will be orthodox ones, and so on and so forth, and the like, is it even possible to discuss it? are there necessarily forces that oppose ? tell us what it is, what kind of people it is, what kind of forces it is there will definitely be those who are against it, because they study history precisely in the context of this struggle, yes, the struggle that lasted on the territory of ukraine between the greek catholics and the orthodox

, moreover, most of the people were participants in certain conflicts we draw them, say, moscow , after all, in the 90s, there is a certain theological tradition, even the theology of separation , yes, that is, this applies to the catholic orthodox world in general, in this theology for thousands of years, that is, 1000 years in 1054, all are one they explained to each other why we cannot be together for 500 years, there has been a separation between the orthodox and er, less, yes , it is with er , protestants for 500 years. history yes, but for 300 years, people explained why they were not brought up together on this generation, textbooks were written , uh, that is, there is a certain identity, which uh , well, a person tends to protect his identity culturally, politically, and religiously, etc.

but it still exists and this is such a trend 20-21 centuries in the world when, after all, these relations between religions will cease to be confrontational and will increasingly begin to be based on respect for the confessional and religious theological choice of another and this dialogue if it will continue dialogue cultural dialogue educational dialogue i think we can see and i mean we have already seen well listen in the first days of the war and we in sofia of kyiv prayed together , orthodox greek catholics, roman catholics , protestants, even in a certain period the heads of churches prayed together in sofia of kyiv yes, when did he start, mr. george excuse me

laska, the priest of the orthodox church of ukraine, the rector of the open orthodox university of st. sophia of wisdom, was with us. thank you for your attention. vitaliy portnikov , mykola veresen. good luck . fortunately - this is behind me uro feminost helped me thanks to the natural ingredients of uro feminost helps to restore control of urination in the melon at night now i would ora urination under control a

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