[000:00:00;00] oxford, which was in charge for a long time, they broke it. but in kenya, for example, after our visit, we met with the deputy speaker of the parliament, then a group was created , the parliamentary group of kenya a-a kenya-ukraine, and they also opened a ukrainian ukrainian mural in the center of e-e neurobin, well, that’s it. here are some interesting moments. tell me, have you felt the influence of the chinese people's assembly today? does it compete with the influence of russia? does it compete with the influence of the west ? where are the competitors? the answer is just to confirm that of course, of course, the influence is very big, but i would say that with those people with whom

we talked. well, here, if there were two audiences on the one hand, this is an audience, well, if it was an educated one, and on the other hand, well, random people with whom we met, is it a traditional survey of taxi drivers, yes, i was very, very, well, even touched. yes, when taxi drivers knew such words as bakhmut zelensky, glory to ukraine and so on , that is, people are interested. about the influence of china well, i would say that there is an awareness of the fact that this chinese influence is really not regional interests behind this chinese aid and that african countries fall into this trap , but uh, that is, there is such an awareness and

they are trying to chinese influence in chinese influence to balance ot well but and well again this is such a rich vector diplomacy of some against others diversification of ties ot we saw the visit of president lulu to china where there were 300 people went with the meadow yes that is, it is obvious uh really like that attempt to install deeper deeper connections, what will come of this? well, let's look at some of them. well, it's clear that the wariness is about the chinese influence , as i already said. but for example, i was in cambodia , and there, in addition to the chinese influence, there is a very strong vietnamese influence, yes. and this is a surprise for me.

was opened. i don't know if this is a surprise to you as cambodians have a bad attitude towards the vietnamese , that is, my understanding is that, you know, it was stereotypical that in 1979, when the vietnamese army helped overthrow the khmer rouge regime, that's how the attitude should have been if the liberators and actually, no, they only told how the vietnamese came, how they mobilized these compadres who went to the vietnamese 19 detachments simply because there was no food , they didn't understand the language, they only knew some commands , and i was surprised, well, so what, but here you see, a small country that is next to big countries needs to take care of one and the other, that is, the attitude towards

vietnam is negative, well, on the other hand, it can be understood because from nabu vgeonom for other countries to china and for cambodia and for laos and that's why they are wary of them there, because they see imperial ambitions in them, and in china, which seems to oppose vietnam in this story of imperial ambitions. the vietnamese entered mr. payne's country to overthrow the regime of polpota, the king of cambodia, and the former and future people of sihanouk were hiding in beijing, pyongyang, and this is true because they were far away. the model that they built it was a kind of model of the cultural revolution but

in a much worse, much worse execution, but china was if after the vietnamese entered cambodia, then china was really far seedling fled fled there you know what i have impressed in this whole story, let's say if we touch on cambodia, we can talk about the policy of reconciliation, what was there in cambodia, let's say in south africa, we were surprised by a lot here, it turned out that in cambodia no one was punished for the crimes of genocide, that is, the leaders of these khmer rouge, they eventually came out, they came out, they came out of the jungle, yes, on the condition that if they were granted amnesty, which is true, and as a result, no one was prosecuted, only then after a few years, they still started the trial

of several and - and the leaders of the red hops, well, someone was sentenced to life imprisonment, someone died during the trials themselves, because there were already people of age, but it did not go further, if we speak of a democratic composition, hiofan dosia is in prison if i am not mistaken if he is alive i say that someone was sentenced to life imprisonment, but it did not extend to the direct perpetrators of all these crimes. please tell me when the leader of cambodia samryn himself was red .

then he came together with the vietnamese and honsen has been the prime minister for 30 years, that is, you can also imagine . yes, what kind of democracy is there. and how it all happens is a very confusing situation. if we talk about south africa, there was also an agreement that there would be an amnesty if those who were guilty of crimes will publicly declare this, i.e. there was a reconciliation commission and a truth and reconciliation commission , if the exact one was headed by the nobel laureate archbishop, who from the moment listened to all these people, figures in the russian regime , but what is interesting is vinny mandela, too, because in relation to people who, because the african national congress, if they found black employees who collaborated

with racists, then there was a terrible punishment, they put a tire on their head that was filled with gasoline and they were forced to set fire to this tire themselves. and mandela was accused of such crimes during the war. oh , and she was forced to repent. and the representatives of the russian regime also repented, and that's all, that is, if no one was punished, it was part of mandela's policy, and er, when the struggle of the african national congress was going on in the center of pretoria on a big hill, there is a statue, it ’s not a statue, and it’s a huge memorial, it ’s built like that, for some reason, it immediately commanded me

, reminded me of all these totalitarian architectural forms that is, such a huge box that stands on a hill and dominates the seven landscapes, and this memorial is called the fortrecker memorial, that is, the boer memorial, so who actually defeated the local population and established their republic there, and when the base with racism went in front of it, some nk activists they dreamed that this memorial would be destroyed, but this memorial remained, and nearby on the hill they erected the freedom memorial, that is, the memorial to those who fought for the independence of africa. i looked at whose names are very interesting. that is, there all the heroes who fought against the colonialists in south africa itself, in all of africa, cuban soldiers, soldiers from the ussr who fought there in the south, and mikhail gorbachev are also there, and

between these two memorials they laid a symbolic road, that is, mandela. if he decided to act here, very, very be careful, moreover, when he came to power, he went to those people who established the apartheid regime in south africa. and he would say that he speaks from the position of forgiveness, forgiveness, and if we say , for example, that is, a very interesting experience, and this far from everyone was satisfied with this, there was a lot of criticism that actually if the figures of this russian regime were not punished well, in fact, some of these figures actually went to transform society and give power to the dark-skinned majority, and mandela was faced with a very difficult choice of how to

maintain this situation well, he took exactly such and such a path, by the way, what is interesting is that this transition to the democrats began in 1990, in 1994 the first elections were held in which mandala won, and in four years more africans died than in all the years of the russian regime, how was this explained because there were clashes between the africans themselves, between different tribes and borders by different political forces, each of which had its own military formation, but uh, uh, the models succeeded. to keep the situation under control by the way, if we talk about these things about the politics

of memory in brazil and argentina, we know that a lot of people died in the fight against dictatorship by military dictatorships, and for them this is a very large part of their current memory. when you talk about the war in ukraine, they constantly emphasize that we understand you, we understand you because we went through it, and here we immediately say , what do you have over there during all the years of the dictatorship , 10-15 thousand 20,000 people died there? thousands of us every day, for example, the internal conflict is internal, and there we have an internal conflict, not an internal one, but an external one, if there were no russian troops on our territory, no one goes to ani died in the crimea, in the donbass, yes, this is what we usually

explain, and well, we explain everything in our explanations i hear you, and then we meet with brazilian senators, with the head of the brazilian parliament, with people who are close to the president, luula explained everything, told everything, and then bahnula made this statement about the scream, the truth played back very quickly back well , just in those days when we were in a couple this is what happened. this story with the so-called exit of pars from the international criminal court and president ramapoza. this is exactly how it is pronounced. because in our country they say aromafoza , because it is spelled like that , they are read separately. the ruling party of the anc, well, they say, i obey it, that south africa will leave the international criminal court, well, you can imagine my mood, which was here , you are driving something, you are explaining something to someone, and here babah

, the next day there is a statement that well, you know, it was a mistake, a mistake, the statement was, in fact, there is no steam from the international criminal court well, i know that you told this story in your programs and about how in 2015 the president of the alpyshir court, who was also issued an arrest warrant by the international criminal court, and the government did not they were arrested, well, now there is a struggle, at least for the fact that putin did not come, because i think that after all, the couple understands that this is a very strong reason for them, it will be very difficult if they , too, would be better off if putin did not come. well, there will be a struggle it is diplomatic calculations, and on the other hand, russian pressure and russian money. well, i understand that putin

really wants to come because if he comes , no one will arrest him, he would mention this international criminal court and international law as such, it is approximately like crimea pull back m-m maybe so, yes, but vitaly, i’m careful. i’ve already referred several times to your programs, which i watch carefully. and it seems that you also expressed this version that putin is afraid to leave moscow after all, and suddenly something will happen, that is, such an economist primarily has economic interests they are actually not in russia, so they are actually in the west , china is next, but the influence of russia is very, very important , and unfortunately this party, the african national congress, yes, they are here

, they are showing president ramaposo, eh, they eh under the influence of the african national congress , their delegation went to russia, met with united russia, declared that they supported russia before the assembly, and the representatives of the youth of the african national congress even went to these pseudo-referendums in the occupied territory . it seems to me that here well, i say that there are two factors at work here. i don't know which of them is important. one factor is the money factor, which is very difficult to overcome, and the second factor is this ideological one when they say that russia our traditional ally can work here, that is, if they want to hear it, then again there are very good arguments, that is, to translate the narratives of the struggle between, that is, you show the meeting in sochi, there you wrote, uh, i

don’t know what year it is, because in sochi the first one was held. yes, it is russia, and in the 19th year, this year, the second summit is to be held. and again, it is interesting who will be represented there, who will go , what decisions will be made for the hearts of africans and where it is not easy, not an easy struggle. and that is all voices voices in do things that i would like to say are ours diplomacy ah, well, it's obvious that we didn't pay enough attention at the time, maybe for objective reasons , the number of embassies in these countries is increasing , the number of representatives of south africa is increasing , our ambassador is very active, love abravitova, who is very kind, active, energetic, speaks in

the press. ethiopia, for example, still does not have an ambassador for many years, and it is very bad because the ambassador in ethiopia is part-time representative of the country at the african union, and ukraine is an observer at the african union and we now have oleksandr zubov, he is a temporary attorney-in-fact and in affairs, but he does not have the status of an envoy. and this limits his access to the african union. to be honest, i don't know what this has to do with, i asked some of our diplomats. we look for such an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances from the candidature, then we find that she cannot go for some reason, but definitely this is, let's say, a minus for us, but i'm saying there are pluses. for example, in indonesia, our ambassador vasyl hamyanin he speaks the indonesian language perfectly

, and it's not the right way to say it. do you know a few words for plizer ah he yes he was present at the conference i was there exactly on february 24 this year on the anniversary he held a conference organized by the ukrainian embassy in one of the foreign policy centers and the ambassador himself came out and said let us speak english here let's communicate in indonesian in the beautiful language, he conducted the entire conference , we were translated into english, by the way, he did one more interesting thing here, which i want to mention, because i will even say it. yes, i was there on february 24. i say, do you want to invite me? i will speak. it is such a rare occasion when there is a professor directly from ukraine, and they invited not me, but three indonesian professors who spoke from the old ukrainian positions, and they did it. the embassy made

it special. it says that it is better. let the indonesians themselves speak about it. that is, there are already experts there who understand the situation. who can speak. and there were three speakers, there were three indonesians. i think it was very good . these are the opportunities we are talking about. position, it is possible to act through the structures of civil society, so that everything is far from lost. and when they say that the global south does not support us , i say well, look at the un voting map, who supports russia, a few, a few outcasts, yes, we are still supported by the majority well, what about in africa half, half, half will support us

, half will abstain. yes, but uh, it's still the same as saying that it's a defeat. no, it's not necessary. went through the annexation of east timor, then had to hold a referendum there to give up its territory , which it constitutionally declared as its province, and to what extent do you think this historical legacy is now reflected in the position of indonesia. well, if you mentioned east timor, then i will tell you right away. i had a question from the ambassador, when i spoke to cambodia, i had a question from the ambassador of east timor, or as these morts say now, and he told me, listen, we agreed to hold a referendum and if indonesia withdrew its

troops, why don't you hold a referendum, as it were? and you have to explain, you understand, that at that time it was about recognizing timor in general , indonesia did not give any guarantees of security to east timor, and ukraine was in international recognition, they gave us a guarantee, then they occupied us, that is, a significant part of the territory . that is, it is a different situation neither you nor we will be under the coercion of the aggressor for any referendums. if we talk about indonesia, well, here we are actually talking about the situation of territorial integrity when we talk about territorial integrity is all in all countries in all countries of the global cock it has an echo because they all have problems and if we talk about the same uh indonesia there is already a separatist movement there and it is the so-called western

western iryan it is uh uh this is the island of new guinea, which is divided in half, and in the indonesian part there is a separatist movement there, the islands were there, and the czechs, yes, there was also a separatist movement, in the end they were given autonomy , so for them, this is enough, enough , and besides, they think what ah hmm east malaysia is their territory, if that's why they are usually very careful about these issues when a country comes and says it's ours and takes it away. but if we talk about indonesia, we have other arguments that few people know about. in fact, very interesting in the 46th year at the call of the president of the rival in indonesia, a demonstration was held as a sign

of gratitude to ukraine. to appeal raised the issue of indonesia's independence to the united nations and for this it was raised for the first time and for the opponent it was so important that he called on the indonesians to go to the demonstration and to thank there are archival documents this declaration and so on and then there was an invasion of the dutch and the dutch went bloody war that the dutch. i forgot exactly what it is called, well, something like a special military operation

. add here you will cover that is for indonesian history these are very interesting moments so we can appeal to this well and i would also say that if we are talking about countries like indonesia like malaysia well i am not saying like cambodia then they faced communism there and with the danger of communism, so the reaction was harsh, the governments take anti-communist positions, again, these are very dark periods of history, because in fact, when they fought against the communist threat, they fought like this, and there were 3 million communists in indonesia, they were really preparing to come to power with the help of the chinese, er, and a very dark story, in fact, because er, officials well, how did it happen that the communists in indonesia decided

to stage a coup and force the rival to give up power, but there is a version that in fact , since such a threat was inevitable, then in fact, they were provoked to strike back and the strike back was extremely harsh, that is, tens of thousands of well , not just communists, but their sympathizers were shot like that, that is, here but but with this indonesia of humanitarian subversion as well as malaysia with communist subversive activities and well, i am not talking about cambodia anymore. well, this cambodian genocide is a direct allusion to what happened in ukraine . you know what, mr. vitaly, when i was in cambodia and visited this memorial, which everyone in the world knows

according to this movie killing feels and the killing fields and i saw that yes , western tourists come and they go there are two memorials, one in the center and the other on the outskirts of the capital, quite a big one, you have to go they go that is, this is part of their their if of the tourist program to visit these memorials, i was thinking why is it that so little is known about our holodomor and why our, er, our monuments to the holodomor were not so popular, let's say , well, now it's clear, now it's a war, so why didn't we manage to do it, er, oleksia it seems to me that if we had a clear program for the implementation of the victims of the babyn yar bucha famine and it would simply be one concept, this

is the concept. simulations 20 years ago, i think that we need to work on this, of course, i hope that it will happen and that the world will know about our victims and about the genocides that were destroyed on the territory of ukraine against ukrainians, jews, crimean tatars , uh, this topic is getting feedback, yes, it is feedback on when you speak in front of an audience, you have to talk about it, i discovered something unexpected for myself, you know, i spoke in malaysia on television , the presenter is very friendly, we talked so well, everything was so nice , and then i asked her during the broadcast what there was crimea. and you know who is the indigenous population of crimea? she didn't know. i said crimean tatars - i say. and you know what their religion is. she didn't know either. that is, she is not from a muslim country, malaysia, which

values ​​its muslim identity very much , even sometimes it goes off the scale, but they don't know that the muslims suffered crimean tatars during the russian aggression and of course the accent by the way, i want to end our conversation with it, approaches the end of the hour but i think that this is also a moment that we should never forget that we still have our er partners especially ukraine in the global cock do not have adequate information . our task is to simply inform them of this adequate information, including historical, political, ethnic, ethnographic, religious, and not to think that everyone knows everything as we do. thank you, mrs. oleksia, for this conversation and for your mission. the guest in this part of the broadcast is professor oleksiy gran, the profession is a political scientist, the requirements of the lyano academy , the scientific voice recorder of the democratic initiative named after lik kucherev, and all i have to do is

say goodbye to you and convey melnyk which represents the news release of this hour. good evening to everyone from espresso . this is the final release, so together with the news team, i will tell you about the most important thing. hits, three private houses were completely destroyed , seven houses were damaged, russian artillery also hit near the village of yantarne , a 62-year-old woman was wounded, further operational information from the general staff, six during this day, our