[000:00:00;00] even better. that is, if the latter comes to power, that means he has relations with europe , and so on. he has already, as you can tell, started to speak out against politics with russia, against such honest relations, and there are even rumors that he may join all kinds of sanctions and so on. далее против россии вы же you say that they have a general position, how then will zharov join the sanctions against russia if he basically says that he wants to develop relations with russia of the same type as his. well , their attitude towards ukraine is understandable. the same no it is precisely in terms of what is now er russia er turkey acts precisely as a basselnik. that is, if we are talking about the grain deal , that is, it was made into a deal, it will not be canceled so easily, because this deal was made under the auspices of the un and it was made by the deal not

only for the benefit of some specific countries of some specific two or three, it is good that you can say peace, that is, the deal is not a solution, but in the near future it is expected that russia will not introduce such a policy, which is carried out by erdoğan, but in relation to украины украинского вопроса и так далее they have the same stick thank you thank you we listened to you rasshit mustafa zad journalist public figure was in direct contact with us we discussed the elections in turkey we are following their course so they are very victorious we will definitely inform you about everything that will happen take place in turkey and we will be back on the air in just a few minutes, it's hard to talk about what you feel when you have urinary incontinence, an unpleasant situation can arise at any time, even with

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the joints and muscles, somehow, a sweet hamstring returns movement from pain in for joints and muscles , natural ointment with comfrey from dr. tais, save money by buying a large package of 100 grams spotlight ukraine, a new project of the espresso channel, a project about the war and ukraine, will cover ukraine, a product that is made better by journalists and experts, inform, analyze, forecast exclusive interviews with foreign guests, politicians, diplomats, economists, military men, ukraine, the key to how we will live the next few years , ukraine, with volodymyr ostapchuk , every sunday at 21:00 at espresso, we continue the saturday political club program, anzhelika sezonka and vitaly portnikov. so, let's start our conversation since our president's visit to italy, he has already managed

to hold talks there with the president of the italian republic, serju material, prime minister george and meluni and i have even been to an audience with the pope and francis. i would probably start my question with the last one. unfortunately, there are currently no details on what exactly they talked about with pope francis. however, it is obvious that he was discussed in ukraine. pope francis recently stated that the vatican is participating in a secret peacekeeping mission to try to put an end to the war between russia and ukraine, mr. vitaly, will this mission not look like the appeasement of russians and ukrainians that pope francis constantly tried to do? i generally believe that pope francis is participating in a secret peacekeeping, because i do not consider the pope to be a person who suddenly made something up and said it publicly , despite the fact that in moscow and kyiv they said that they do not know anything about this mission, i really think that they

may not know anything about this place because he is not discussing it with them, the visit of the advisor to the president of brazil to moscow and the fact that the president of brazil, lulu ignacio do silva , discussed possible peacekeeping actions with the head of the people's republic of china, this is pope francis, because we keep forgetting that this not european, but you are not an american pontiff, the first latin american pontiff in the history of mankind. the former head of the catholic church of argentina, with huge connections with the latin american political elites , looked at him like a grandfather who does not really understand where he is, and he perfectly understands where he is, that's very strong motivated with a lot of experience with a tragic life experience, er, such, well, how to say it, a religious politician, a politician

, a church politician, a political figure because in argentina, we will not be able to gain control over the church without the ability to understand a difficult political situation. moreover, he was a bishop during the dictatorship, when tens of thousands of people went missing, including friends of pope francis. that is, we always underestimate the scale of the possibility, so that, in principle, even the president of the club himself could be interested in this situation because there could be contacts with the vatican. i think that this is not all that pope francis may simply not know a lot, and the president of ukraine and the president of russia may not know a lot. they are at war. there are different proposals, for example, let's give the territory and that's it, and the war ends, the global south and china are counting on an absolutely obvious version of the development of events, which the president

of the odesa nation club spoke about, that when ukraine wants to return its territory, it is right, european unions, a collective event when they help ukraine, they are right, and those countries that believe that no one can win the war, it must be ended, are also right because they look at the situation realistically and they believe that the principle will come the day when it will become clear to both parties that they are not capable of advancing, when it will become clear in ukraine that it simply does not have, let's say, human and technical reserves, and it will become clear to russia that it cannot gain any more ukrainian territory, and mediators will appear here who will say that ukraine must clearly give up its territories, russia must clearly give up the fact that it can take something else and that's the end of the war, people won't die, you still have no one to die, you've already practically exhausted everything you could, well, russians there is also no money to continue fighting, they have exhausted everything they have, they could come to an agreement, this is what is called meeting in the middle of you . what i tried to talk about with andrii. to be honest

, such a moment may never come. why do you think that he is the next one, we are now discussing with you e- he situation from the point of view of the global level, i can explain to you why this moment will never come, you see , because i don’t want it. vladimir putin sincerely believes that if he fights for 10 or 15 years, he will take all of ukraine well, pieces of territory are absolutely not needed, they are interesting to him as a bridgehead , the fact that he cannot get this bridgehead is a problem, but the fact that he does not need any there, just one or three areas, this is also a fact, it may not work because he, you see, raises rates if the west would say month by month no, you know, you can't advance now, so we won't give you more shells or you can't advance any more why do you

need these anti- aircraft batteries? global the south and china are close to success, when the west says we will now give long-range missiles, it means that a completely different tactic has been chosen. if putin does not understand that we need to end the war, we will raise the stakes, he raises the stakes, we will rise western politicians well, at least until the moment if the president is in the chair in the united states , donald trump will appear, from the point of view of public opinion, that is, public opinion , they can act according to only one scenario, say that they gave ukraine everything that they had, everything except nuclear weapons and if ukraine loses with all this, it is not their responsibility, but when they say listen, you provided them with long-range missiles, we provided

them, we agreed . after a week, a month, i agree, and then they find out that they did not agree with her, but this is ugh, then it means that you did not give them airplanes , you did not give them such an air defense battery. and if you also gave any opposition politician to the elections, i will speak you see, ukraine fell. and why? because you did not give because you were afraid of putin . and now as a result, we have this, this, because the consequences are this, this is so that they will go to the end and russia will go to the end, and ukraine is the arena of exceptionalism conflict well, you can't do anything here, since the west itself is not going to fight, but is going to give everything it can, and russia is not going to end the war, but it can't continue it, so what chances do pope francis, president lula or the head of

the people's republic of china have to end all the bells and whistles i am not involved in this war, because the only chance they would have is some kind of conditional truce . well, i don't see any political possibilities . he really may have connections and all these contacts we have with representatives of latin america are not just happening now, but with the president of italy directly there with the prime minister of italy in general. and in your opinion, italy is doing everything in its power, or could do more because the country itself in crisis is not a rich country in the european union. well, not the poor, as they say, without italy, the european union would not be the european union either, so in principle , the rule of the predecessor of george melanie mario draghi stabilized the italian economy, besides italy or a country with a huge military industrial complex

, and in addition, italy is a country with authority in the european union, and in addition , italy is a country with its own, let's say , interests in the european union, if it supports ukraine, it still means something to many it is not for nothing that they help us more humanitarianly, well, it is rare that such heavy weapons are probably so ready to help under those conditions. mrs. melen is in the coalition of the party of silvia berlusconi, who barely kissed on the lips with volodymyr, maybe even on the lips. we did not see from this what what happens between them is matteo salvini, who almost took money from the pockets of vladimir putin, and maybe he took it again, not everyone saw something always happening behind the scenes, this is already a huge political achievement if such country how italy, let's say, took such a position as hungary takes , it would be a disaster and italy takes a completely opposite policy, what's more, when president zelenskyi met in paris with president macron, federal chancellor scholz

, prime minister meleni was incredibly unhappy that she was not invited to this meeting, remember, and this also says a lot that she believed that she should be part of this quartet. and by the way, mario draga's predecessor was also a participant in these efforts, it should also be remembered that when he was prime minister thanks to his great international authority, he has always been a presence in the format of ukraine, france, germany, italy. so i think that this is an important visit, in any case, it is obvious that this visit is in italy . he is very strongly connected with the visit . channels but we don't know because , you understand, interest in the war in europe is falling. the personal appearance of the president of ukraine somehow increases people's interest in helping us. by the way

, the president of ukraine is going to germany, this is important by the way, germany allocates one of the largest aid packages to us, almost three billion euros, the former ambassador of ukraine to germany, andrii melnyk, answered my question in such a mediocre way. do you think that it has already changed twice from such a peak public support is beginning to decline , this is an important moment now we are recording a decline , but military support it is good, but if there is no increase in public support, i will i am convinced that i can reduce the military, that is why the president should have gone to germany, he will go these days literally after italy. that is why germany's support for ukraine has changed so seriously thanks to several circumstances. the first circumstance is that the germans saw with horror the actions of the russian army in

ukraine, the actions of the reich army that together, forever in their history, they tarred the brakes as not human, not even the army, it must be said that even the army of the reich did not behave like that, the ss behaved, all these punitive services behaved and in russia, the army is like that the truth. this is a shock for the germans, and this shock contributed to a change in public opinion. they saw pictures of the second world war on their screens from the sirens of the air raid sirens. they saw women and children fleeing somewhere. and by the way, we must remember that germany also experienced this, did the germans too lived under the bombardment means that the personal experience of the grandparents of the majority of the working population of germany. let germany be the aggressor, but there was the everyday experience of the tragedy of millions of people. this country was

completely broken. and why then, as they say, public opinion is changing and interest is falling due to a certain economic crisis and the question seems to be that there is no economic crisis, you understand in europe less than in other countries, i think that is not the reason and because there are no massive bombings, how are the beds in general, the psychology is arranged when a person sees a massive bombing of millions of refugees crying children are looking for their parents under the ruins, when they are heard , that too by the way, it was a huge mistake of volodymyr volodymyrovych from his gang that people live without light and heat . only a person. i am not full of reason, i still do not understand this. that is, you will never be able to intimidate the population of this country, which you deprive of warmth and light, but on the other hand, you convince everyone else that you are just at war with the civilian

population. and they saw it on all the screens of all european television broadcasters, there were dark streets in kyiv or lviv. you yourself remember these dark streets . we had lights here, how many times they turned off the studios, and it affected when i wrote a text to my colleagues from the russian service of radio svoboda just about this, about one of those evenings, about a night under the starry sky, when there was no light at all in the country, they called me back and asked me to read this text out loud, because we wanted me to give it, so that they would put it on the air, and this is the reaction of people who live in europe because they are the headquarters of radio svoboda in prague and i understood their mood because it has a very strong and emotional effect that i am sitting here, i have heating, i have light and there are people literally six it is seven hours away from there and

they live in them as in the middle ages and in winter in the winter. and this also greatly contributed to public opinion. and now, look what's happening, we survived the winter, no one freezes, the lights are on, our energy system has worked, thank god, but they see people see ordinary streets on which people walk with their children, they don't see pictures mass bombing of buchi mariupol is a great happiness because we want it to happen, but we have to understand the consequences for european opinion, such interest is decreasing and here it appears, let's say, in the form of a map where you see it on tv. yesterday i read in one austrian publication that during this firefight between the sudanese soldiers, they shot something there, they bombed

there, the founder of the sudanese theater was killed, an actress . she was an elderly woman, she was there, she seems to be under 80 years old , but she was such a sudanese star, they played in the theaters of egypt, created and preached alone stars of the sudanese professional theater and you begin to reflect, how could i write such texts about, let's say, an elderly writer who lived through the war and died in mariupol in the basement and was under the cold of the cold, she was the soul of the greek community of mariupol, books were written about mariupol and here is such a terrible death of a person who gave all of his, all of his life force to his native city, and you, too , it is you who sees practically uh, a person gave everything, all of his life to his native city they created a theater in the country, they just wanted the country to be better, and they start killing some scoundrels who simply cannot divide money and power among themselves. well

, here we have a war. imagine that you are a german. and when you see this, you switch to another tragedy by and large. even such a thing let's say it's at its peak right now, and which is also equivalent, one of my colleagues also wrote on facebook that he was talking to a journalist in german and said to him listen, why do you think that we should know ukrainian culture? we don't really know the culture sudan well, he was very offended, i began to say that we are european culture, sudan is far from sudan, sudanese culture should be known in egypt, or is that all , you can argue with this, i will not now believe that a journalist is right, in principle, adequate because she could have prepared herself if she wanted to talk to a ukrainian poet and a sudanese one, but this, but his reaction , she did not take into account this volume of rain, why did she

say about sudan, she is a young girl, she did not see ukraine in the evening, in the first columns, you are on tv or and it's the same pity, that is, women and children are absolutely irrelevant. they are in africa because this is something we cannot understand. are they in africa, in latin america, or in europe, when a person sees on his screen a child who is looking for her parents who died under shelling, it does not matter what color her skin is and we are now in a situation of stabilization in most of the country thanks to our armed forces and thanks to the help of our allies, but this has its consequences for the public opinion of europe, that's all i want for you to say and that's why i very much welcome the visit of the president of ukraine to germany and we still want to be closer to the germans than the sudanese, not because there is no tragedy there

, because well, we are a european family. we strive to be one's own, that's why it's probably figurative in this political category, i'm telling you about moral categories because europe is arranged in such a way that it is guided primarily by moral categories, it will be absolutely wrong angelika if you try to convince europeans at the expense of political categories because to convince europeans at the expense of political categories categories, there will always be someone else who will say, well, listen, if the russian troops reach uzhgorod, where they were already before 1991, this is a problem exclusively uh, their stage, they are in this wild part of europe which we never knew and did not want to know, this is owned by an austrian, something between them is taking care of it, they are eternally quarreling, why is this our problem , that is, this is the wrong approach, if we want to be part of the european family, then we should be just as sorry that people are being killed in sudan or that rockets

where the tel-aviv companies are flying us, just like the fact that rockets are flying in kherson, in kiev, this is a rule of conduct. by the way , the israelis told us at the beginning of the war, so you say that we do not have such empathy , but we live all the time in the war and you never there was no particular empathy for us. now, 1,100 rockets are being fired in israel. it is very worrying. it is in the first headlines of the first few minutes , of course, but i say let it be heard. because it is a jewish state. there are many people from ukraine, and we have more empathy than for some countries far away from us, and we are surprised that israel does not have such empathy for us, although the majority of the population of israel is not from here, and that is why there may not be such empathy, well, it is logical to treat absolutely everyone the same everywhere, people everywhere, and

well, we have to talk about it, i do. why do i come back to this again , that you need to work with public opinion in such a situation? vladimir putin he is counting on this, why should he a long war is needed, he understands that there will be new conflicts. and if there are not, he himself, er, organizes, he knows how , we understand that sudan is also to a large extent. this the general who started this coup he was in moscow imagine on february 23 or 24, 2022, he welcomed the recognition of the independence of the dpr of the lpr , what is it by chance, that is, russia has nothing to do with this at all, russia is just thinking something can activate now, click on this button and then you can there will not be some button to press, that is, to divert attention from the conflict in e-e

ukraine, as they call it, and we must be ready for it, this is a question of how we will give ourselves advice in a situation when our compatriots will not be killed every day because you understand other people's crimes. no matter how terrible it sounds, it's a very good helper to pay attention to you, but our task is that ukrainians do not kill, and from this it follows that the importance of war for our neighbors decreases. and by the way, it's a good one. they talked about germany, a good example it is poland's decision to ban exports of the ukrainian agricultural sector, i am convinced that if the polish leadership had done this, let's say in april last year, would polish farmers have

demonstrated in april last year public opinion was in a frenzy, saying how can you, you see what is happening to people, their fields are burning , they are killing people, and you only think about money, and now the discussion is at a completely different level . well, of course, it is the national interests. we cannot sacrifice the interests of polish agriculture. the question for you is how public opinion is changing, even in countries that are ten times closer to this situation than germany, which support us even more, so we cannot help but mention mr. vitaliy, the bedobesseparat that took place in moscow on may 9 was canceled in more than 20 cities and in russia this year .

2008, for the first time since 2008, only 8,000 military personnel of the russian army marched in the parade of their promised super modern tanks, and so on, nothing happened, and among the leaders of the states, only those who are part of the udkb came. well, it seems to me that the president from uzbekistan represents a country that is not included. all the others are yes. armenia was so easy. uzbekistan and turkmenistan are not included. i understand that i just hear that why am i saying that even those who are included in the dkb did not come. those dependent on russia also came from putin who are simply afraid that putin will cause some trouble . to put it clearly, they do not want to quarrel with him and they still perceive russia

as a metropolis to a certain extent, well, this can also be said so clearly but do you understand what the problem is? i think we underestimate the level of cowardice of one person, vladimir putin. he is simply afraid of him, this fear is part of his personality . by the way, a great illustration of this fear was this huge table where he sat and talked with those who surrendered. 55 tests for everything you can before meeting here , this entire quarantine, which we learned that all the people who serve him are in quarantine for months and everyone said you know and this is probably because he is very afraid of him very bad the state of his health, he is afraid of getting infected with the coronavirus and dying, and everything means ending the slush immediately, that's why he has to be so insured, and he, by the way, on may 9 , nothing, nothing, they said that there is no coronavirus, he is no longer worried. he

is located, i will not support this conspiracy theory, that's why what do i think with the presidents of other countries doppelgängers don't work, doppelgangers can appear in mariupol on a conditional basis, but not if they exist at all i think that it is beneficial for putin himself to support this mythology about doppelgangers so that they believe that he it means eternal, you know, maybe i already told you to remember this once, and i don’t know if you have seen this series academy, er, empire of poetry, he had an idea there, not azyak azimova, the creators of this series from apple tv, that it seems that this galactic empire is ruled by a clone of the emperor, well, that is what should be played died a long time ago in 900 or so in 3000 and they always clone this emperor well, it is the same person and so it means that he is already 345 and they plan

three times so that there was a grandfather, a mature man and a child and others transferred to experience to wisdom grandfather balanced the energy of a mature person but in principle it is the same person all the time repeats thousands of years no nothing new appears this is stability well if you think about it and it is a good idea for putin too because if it is not known how many doppelgangers someone means now he can putin will be the first and then the second and then the third stage of 500 years. well, people don't live that long . well, maybe putin lives. who knows, people live. the constitution so that putin is always alive and that they will not vote on the fact but chemosapia at birth precisely if he has not died . well, it is impossible to kill. well, you and i have already passed 90 years and he is 70. well, what do you