[000:00:00;00] that is, he presented all the points of view, but the hessian point of view is the most. they said that they understand the position of the ukrainians, but they cannot come to terms with the position of pena, the organizers of the festival, because they say it is an attack on freedom of speech, but the main thing is that they got information somewhere about the fact that ukrainian writers allegedly blackmailed the organizers that for participating with the russians in the same festival they will not be allowed back to ukraine and in general will be punished in every possible way, let's listen to an excerpt from this material for the hessians it was absolutely clear that the ukrainians blackmailed the pn and although the hessians sympathized with the position of the ukrainians and their cause, the proposed rebranding of the event seemed absurd, we felt as if we were being asked to tell these people that since they are russians they cannot sit at the big table, they have to sit somewhere around the grandmother -

they told me hessin was unpleasant for their in turn, north america also gives its statesman publicly, where he apologizes once again, but for some reason the same speaks about this position of the ukrainian government and the state and the president not to let in and punish all artists who take participation in various platforms with russians, pan america regrets the situation that arose as a result of a mistake, as we informed writers from ukraine for the pen club, as a supporter of freedom of speech, it is elementary that the position of the government should not be projected onto writers whose essence lies in their independence of thought, we were and remain deeply committed to that the independent voices of both ukrainian and russian writers continue to be heard in the context of this conflict , at the same time, artem chapai clearly said in

a comment to the new york times that i quote i think the only consequence would be my feeling of guilt towards the people who were killed and tortured by the russian army, and the ukrainian pen also gave his comment , let's listen to him, sometimes we get disapproving remarks about this position of ours, one of the leaders of the russian opposition opinion said that he sees outbreaks of nazism among ukrainians, one edition misled its readers with claims of blackmail and ultimatums from cruel ukrainians to hear such an outrageous war cannot be reduced to the level of a chess game or an exchange in clutches in the press, war means human lives, warm, full of love, fragile and irreplaceable, human life, responsibility for them, responsibility to these people requires our unwavering determination, but it has already spread because the atlantic publication is very influential and has spread not only among the russian so-called

liberal party, but it has already come out significantly a wider , albeit liberal, russian gathering is as always at its height, let's listen to one excerpt from one of the posts of one of the russians . actually, it is about this so-called zoological nationalism, so that it does not mean the ukrainian government, which forces its citizens to discriminate against writers. even just people, let alone russian-speaking ones, by national identity - this is a despicable and disgusting thing . i don't know if it's nazism or just too advanced a case of zoological nationalism , zoological nationalism that unites people not by deeds or even by words and in terms of origin and nationality, it is still closer to nazism, which, of course, cannot be compared with the russian bombings, but it is no less

disgusting. asia found out for himself the following: the russians are now pretending to be not just a victim , but a double victim is not only attacking them . on my facebook, on fiscal philosopher and president of ukrainian pena, volodymyr yarmolenko. but i think more and more russian liberals are already using the narrative of a double victim, they are not only victims of the terrible putin, they are already victims of cruel ukrainians and now the entire western the world that cares about freedom of speech must defend the russians from these cruel ukrainians, what is the story about the ukrainian nazis, and shenderovych already directly says about the outbreaks of nazism , others say the same thing, only in a different sauce, and this is not just a delusion, this is already some hundredth-level resentment this is already a smooth convergence with

the worst forms of propaganda. yes , let's try to figure out what we should do with it. ira, first of all. tell me, please. and where does the american money come from, where do the russian liberals come from, but anyway, where are they all from? took together with the atlantic that you blackmailed the unfortunate organizers of this event mash didn't extinguish everyone in the world a and what did you uh actually said that if you participate with the russians in the same event, you will have problems at home in ukraine from the government from the president personally and so on, where did it all come from, well, i have to say that there is still a difference between the american pen and the american media in how they see it, and from

my point of view, the penamerak were simply setting things up and very sincerely wanted to correct this situation , in general, i got the impression that it pleasant adequate people who are with us on our side, but it is clear that they still do not understand our point of view deeply, and trying to understand it, they somehow twisted everything with such interesting optics that we ourselves opened our mouths when we suddenly saw the statement which was not agreed with us, our quotations . well, we were somehow not shown before this that they say we are really in danger of some kind of repression from the ukrainian state if we speak under the same umbrella with the russians. i think that the legs are growing in what was the story of artem chapai that before leaving for the usa he signed a document with his military leadership that he

undertakes not to have any contacts with representatives of the country of the aggressor in the usa, that is, such a document he signed a check by the way, he did not sign anything like that but it probably also depends on some rules of the game for each part and so on, but nothing about the possible consequences of this. well, if not, yes. and if we will be under the same umbrella with the russians , well, it was not about that at all, and how pen america suddenly. well, all this was interpreted from what. there were already some additional false interpretations in the american media, or also a jellyfish that happily picked up. well, after all those russian voices. well, of course, as always , grandma babi said this, but in a very distorted form. well, we have what

by the way, somewhere in the comments, i did not see this comment by artem chapai, but in the comments because we are very loudly discussing all this in social networks. i read somewhere that it seems that artem chapai wrote ironically somewhere that if we sit somewhere or on to take part in the festival alone with the russians, then at home they say they are pushing us, or could they just take this comment seriously? well, they could, as experience shows, any word can be interpreted incorrectly, that is , we must probably be even more careful with our wording, because what we ukrainians often it seems funny what we make fun of. it turns out that people with a completely different western perspective can really take it too seriously, but for this there is probably some agreement of quotes that are given. well, there is another point of view, that is, if you are retelling or

the words should probably be shown to this person before they are published , so that there are no such cases , the fire is the second time in two weeks that we have some kind of literary festival . but already for the second time, well, the position of ukrainian literary writers is perceived as such that they came to the west and began to demand from the organizers to expel the russians, although this is not the case , at the estonian prima vista festival they started something to think that our poets olena huseinova and anna gruver demanded from the organizers to remove the russians, although it is not so possible because olena huseinova wrote in her essay that if she were a russian she would be silent and grugor came to linor horalika and wrote there they say, don't you want to go yourself

from this festival, but the organizers didn't ask for it. well, right there, ah, again, the same story is repeating itself, for some reason it spread. what is it that you asked to retire these russians because of the otaku story? hmm, because of some misunderstanding, yes, can we assume that we have some kind of problem with communication and is it possible to find it somewhere and fix it so that it simply does not happen and in the future somewhere we can feel where we are saying something wrong no, of course we can endlessly ask ourselves what we are guilty of, but it seems that we are far from always guilty we are right here. the situation was quite transparent because there were certain agreements at the start , no one blackmailed the festival, it was simply announced very clearly that if there are russian participants , then we cannot afford

to participate in the festival in such a case. why is it a separate one history too, i can talk about it later, but here everything is very simple. if you agree to such rules, then we come. if not, then we simply do not participate in the festival, and later this event arose, that is, an additional event. to be honest, we also did not constantly monitor the program , because we relied to those agreements that were announced at the start already when we arrived in new york, we saw this event in the program and again there was no blackmail boycott, there were no colleagues, how do we proceed because there were such agreements, now the rules of the game come out of how do you propose to get out of this situation? our proposal was actually to abandon our event. no one gave them ultimatums that we demand the cancellation of the event with three russians, and they immediately admitted their guilt and began to look for a way out of the situation. they suggested

that we first take our event for within the framework of the festival, we thought it was humiliating because , well, why should we agree to such a format of segregation if we were not guilty of anything, we refused it, they consulted a little more and in the end informed us that the another event, its organizers themselves decided to cancel it, so we continued to play by the rules of the game that we agreed to and , frankly, did not think about all this after that, well, we were not going to bring it to the public because it was obvious that it was some kind of communication error, the festival recognized it emphasized at all stages of the process. that's how it is. by the way, let's answer the article in the atlantic where masha hesa ​​herself said that you are cruel, but by the way, it's also interesting and i suspect that the participants

of this event are not quite of the same opinion. well, not all of them onziseyn page because he wrote to me in the end, one of the participants of this event, more precisely, the moderator ilya vinyavkin, by the way, this is also a mistake, some impression that masha hessen was supposed to moderate this event, in fact, no, she was supposed to be she, they were supposed to be participants, and he wrote me this illya directly to private that they don't really feel terrible with anna nemzer because they don't consider themselves victims, they don't consider us cruel, what am i telling you ilya , well, thank you for writing, but i guess you have to somehow articulate it publicly, otherwise it will turn out the impression that the quoted words of hesse are spread to all participants well, but publicly for some reason i well, although i can’t say that i follow this, but i haven’t seen very many of our female teachers of letters, well, in general, people who

in one way or another are interested in or engaged in culture. well, they recognized this the material in the atlantic is quite manipulative, but my colleague further down the curb wrote a post with which i tend to agree that we have our own point of view , the americans have their own point of view, and even more so , americans are different and can be perceived well this event as the ukrainians refused to participate with the russians because it is not for us now and the americans can perceive it how really two military men came here they forgot the non -binary jew masha hessen how can it be , well it really can be such an interpretation or can such a point really be a point of view that seems manipulative to us may simply be a point of view different from ours and with a different angle, this is how we see it, we live in a world

where black can be called white, principledness , i don't know, blackmail and so on. therefore, it can to be is another matter that we consistently insist - we insist that, well, again , we did not blackmail and in this case we refused , we wanted to refuse to participate not because of specific personalities, we also insisted on this we did not even study deeply because the grandees of the participants from that side, because it is not important, the important thing was that at the start we agreed that any russian participants well , then we simply do not go to this festival, so it seems to me that we would have chewed everything up enough . of course, another matter would be the desire to manipulate and serve everything in a different sauce. and this desire is obviously there, and it seems to me that this tendency is somehow growing, straightening its wings and becoming more and more noticeable when we see

the voices of some russian intellectuals from everywhere and their echo is already being picked up by some western voices about what they are saying today russians are such double victims not only of putin and cruel ukrainians, etc. i even saw the phrase that ken salting russian intellectuals is actually the same as killing ukrainian children, i was struck by the cynicism of this comparison well, but this is this, now we will not quote individual persons, therefore, the trend is, in general, it seems to me absolutely, well, to say that it is wild, no, in principle, this is expected from many russians, i will not say that all from many , but the question arises: why are their opportunities wasted so much because their votes can be heard now from everywhere on all possible platforms . at the same time, they use these platforms to first of all talk about their own suffering

, about the search for these enemies, everywhere between ukrainians , between i don't know there, poles, chechens, syrians and so on. those who want to raise important issues. well, the root of the problem lies in the fact that we generally have different goals. if these good russians are allegedly fighting against putin and putin’s russia, then we are advocating the fall of imperialist russia, that is, the question arises: why? well, i’m fine. already carried away in the other direction, i just feel that we do not have to do their work for the russians and it is very unfortunate that they, taking advantage of the opportunities to speak at all, are now talking loudly about not at all what would be important to talk about today well, that's really it at the estonian festival, their program also consisted of a discussion of what nabokov did not like kafka and dostoyevsky and not

in us or the costumes of the protesters, that is, the lecture of 2000 somewhere in the 11th year , a serious question arises, guys, that is, today when you would have to research all the imperial constructs of your culture and in fact, this colonial policy of russia over the centuries in relation to ukraine of other states that you oppressed , that is, we need to talk about it. and you are talking about suits on the side or about looking for enemies well, that is, father, you can see that this is a shift in emphasis and this wrapping in a blanket of victimhood, it affects me personally the most. well, but probably attacking is also a certain defense tactic, by the way, i have just this year for, well, more than a year, in principle, this expression is very popular in human rights rhetoric that the victim can never be blamed, this is as an axiom, that is, if there is a victim, we are all, even if

she did something wrong somewhere, she is not right , we are not her, well, in no case can she be blamed, er, it is possible, well, just the russians fit under this definition if we are talking about the world uh-uh there is this discourse all that well, yes, the russians . also looks really like a victim here, i’m just trying to understand what they are thinking there , but if you really look at the interpretation of this expression that the victim can never be blamed, then indeed the russians can fall under it, oh, it’s difficult, that is, seriously . well, it’s obvious that not all russians are the same and it is obvious that we ukrainians do not do everything right, by the way, we are in search of how to act in

certain situations, it cannot be said that all our decisions are always correct and agreed also in our cultural communities . we agree to go to cultural events. where there are participants , one way or another, there are russian participants in which we are more categorical in some ways. i think that we are all still looking for how to actually react, because there cannot be a universal solution here, and well, it is obvious that we also cannot put all russians under the same comb . well, they are also different. there are ethnic russians who left a thousand years ago and have been living in these other holidays for a long time and actually do not think that they are part of today's russia.

figure out for yourself which russians we don't cooperate with, we don't cross paths, why, but can we, at least from some point of view and with some optics, consider them victims today ? well, i guess i'm not ready for that, you know , i'll also say that i'm not fit for that either. simply now i think how many russians are now putin's victims they said now they are double because the ukrainians are attacking them can they really manipulate this western human rights opinion that the victim cannot be blamed ? they are really used to thinking like that there , the rape victim cannot be blamed and the russians can be blamed, even the incomes, to the point that some military personnel cannot be blamed because they see the victims too, as they have heard this many times. well

of course they defend themselves in this way, they sincerely even believe in it. but it seems to me that this is precisely what is being said here that, generally speaking, about some kind of collective consciousness, although it is obvious that different personalities have completely different views and a different level of awareness of themselves and their guilt and so on, but it is about some kind of general responsibility and i think that we have already talked about it. it seems to me that this is not what they are busy with now, they should somehow dig deeper and actually look at themselves in the mirror. why so? it happened that russia turned into such a monster and such a culture, well, it is strange today to talk about nabokov pasternak and so on , if you wanted to talk about some much more recent and important things, why did it happen that russian stupidity at various levels actually created this fertile soil in which the seeds of today's propaganda and

, well, a new attempt at genocide against ukrainians have sprouted, all these free previous ones are that they didn't exist, we'll just close it, well, that is, i don't know now. it all seems so obvious to me, but it is clear that, for example, in the western world, it needs to be chewed up and laid out on the shelves, because , well, i guess what we see, they don't see. we are already much more prepared for these dialogues, but i am everywhere. i communicate a lot with people and cultural diplomats there or our promised ones who travel in general. i admire your work. i don’t know where you all get this patience because i don’t know. was me

i would probably have all the channels for the first month, but really we have to admit for sure that we haven't been doing this clarification for a very long time , it's obvious that we live close to russia and everything is clear to us. to explain something that would seem elementary. you have not been to completely different events in different countries. have you observed how people in different countries react to this thesis that the russians actually brought their country to the way it is perceived? and in what form it is perceived and in which not. according to my observations, in general, the last year has changed a lot, and because i have had all these nine years , i had no opportunity to interact with any international audiences. and here i remember

15-16 years. there was a feeling that we would just we go into some walls, the doors are closed, and you're talking about the round, people are talking to you about salty and it's not at all clear where to converge in the middle , and this year i already see much more understanding, although maybe i'm wearing rose-colored glasses, which is also not excluded, this happens to me, but that's all - i still remember what happened a year ago, we were all emotionally, of course, very traumatized, we were not ready to calmly talk about all this. i think we could only shout or remain silent then, and that doesn't work either. let's be honest, and this year we are already much calmer in terms of our position and calm strength, well, we can to say some even uncomfortable things, and i was recently at the leipzig book fair, i had conversations for which i prepared my heart because the german audience is very difficult and i talked

about uncomfortable things, especially about why are we not ready for a meeting with the russians today and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on. i had the feeling that they were listening very attentively to what the people were actually saying that these seeds fall where they are needed in some more prepared soil. and more and more often i have the feeling that our these attempts to fight, but all the walls, they do not pass in vain, gradually they begin to hear us. of course, we want everything to happen faster, we are not patient and we are tired in the end , but apparently all these processes require, well , the speed they require will not happen soon, but

we have to be persistent. well, it is quite a long process to convince someone. i just look at how much time it took for different groups of discriminated against. that you can't say the word disabled there, but still no one understands around them , they repeat it over and over again , it takes a lot of time for sure. popular, really popular, which are there in certain countries, but according to your observations, it is impossible to speak categorically, because there will be some kind of scandal. well, for example, in our country they often like to say that even if russia fell apart and they fought there and drowned in a sea of ​​blood, we will watch it it's cool there. or let russia fall apart. well, there are some other things , well, i'm talking about the east that i mentioned. are there really any such moments, which are now, which are now

? apparently i'm not ready to say it clearly right away, but i agree with you that we need to be a little more careful with our black humor, which we protect ourselves today and this is a normal form of protection, we also need our dashkas not to leave permanently , but it's true, eh, when it all turns out in some public space, we must remember very well that all of this is being monitored and read, and even if we are discussing it in our ukrainian inter-personal communication and in the ukrainian language, as if well, we joke here in a dark way sometimes, and we understand that it is a joke, but all this can as well well it is appropriate about this is what bjorn wrote to avoid being used against us and we must be very clear, well, remember this responsibility because really in the civilized world, people have to be responsible for their words and our words can

be used against us, we don't want us to look like some kind of savages and well, we are already playing. after all, we are already a part of this civilized world, that's why it's important . it's important to remember that we now have a lot of readers inside the winters. for example, i often write in ukrainian and then i understand that all this anyway, it is carefully read by foreigners, that's why. well, i guess we need to be more careful, friends. let me remind you that we had iryna on the air , a director - a writer who was one of those who went to new york for a literary festival, which resulted in another grandiose scandal. i would have everything - i still wanted to believe that we would be able to avoid these scandals, but in fact, no, that's why, as they say

, we continue to peel the whole rock. i wish you a calm and good evening. about the most important events, the planes will be in the coming months, the partners will decide who and how many f-16 planes will be delivered to ukraine - the white house announced that the air coalition will include portugal, great britain, france , the united states, the netherlands, denmark and belgium , but the allies will provide f16 fighters to ukraine on the condition that they will not be used for strikes against russia, said the national security adviser of the us president, jake sullivan, and the pentagon believes that the f16 is currently not suitable