[000:00:00;00] and the second is the myth that democracy has already lost its strength, you know what putin says and this is exactly what we see. and in our western societies in my country, i saw the last polls of public opinion, only 52% believe that it is important to live in a democracy for my generation - it was 90%. and now that ukraine shows us that democracy is worth fighting for and dying for, and this is the story of our faith in democracy in the west again, it's another myth, many of these other multi-confessional societies are chaotic, and this leads us to an ethno-nationalist ukraine and this myth spread because here in this room we have people of many

ethnic groups, the new churchill, as they call zelenskyi, he is jewish, and masi nayem is an afghan refugee in ukraine, but he gave his health for the struggle in ukraine and ukraine by language, ethnic origin, religion is a ukrainian, and i actually know that in our country, the united states believes in the history of poly -ethnicity, myth number three, only a large state is a source of legitimacy from the point of view of russia, only a large state, america , russia and china, and ukraine also has the whole etu legitimacy was definitely proved by the fact that 6 months after the start of this war, putin

published an article on the relations between russia and ukraine. there is no historical truth in it , but no one took it seriously. and i would be very happy to tell you more about it. i see yaroslav i am limited thank you very much steven my next question to you is to experts on russian affairs do you understand what is going on there especially in relation to telling washington about russia what the russians have been saying to themselves in the last three decades about the future of the world especially in relation to ukraine. why do you think war would become possible? i think war became possible mainly because putin built a system

of power in which one person can make decisions that no one else can challenge. i was against it, even many people around him understand that it is an idiotic idea. and this is a very important requirement and this system of power has many sources. but i think that we need to step back from optimism because it mainly concerns how the information war is waged itself because if we gain trust, ukraine shows us all these wonderful things that were said, all this is absolutely true and i think that it is very

important, but i think that it is in itself that language refers to itself because, as you said, the information war is being waged in two directions, the russians are part of it and we we are conducting it with ourselves in the sense that we want to strengthen our trust in ourselves and ukraine is strengthening trust in itself and in us, but i think that we need to expand our understanding of information warfare and ask about information warfare inside russia because with with all the disagreements we have had with russia for 30 years, we have not really seen anything as extreme as this combination

of military power, aggression and propaganda . putin, let's not forget, managed to secure for himself increased support within the country despite the fact that it is justified in completely fictional terms because after you read his justification for the war and you need to get recommendations, and we did not try to question or challenge the ideas that were the basis of putin's war, and this is not just

because ukraine is not a real country, but because the west is determined to destroy russia, and this is a key element of putin's logic, and we acted as if it were enough to simply say that he then calls into question the international order that is based on rules, then there is a very good answer to this, he says, i don't know about these rules and who invented them what kind of rule is this and i think that it works in russia itself i think that the information war in the information war we perceived the unity of russia as a matter of course but too much and what putin created it in principle but what we should

do sam it will be further i will have a further question i will ask vitaly about this internal russian issue but uh why did the west buy this russian story why did the west follow this story what he putin told bookmark the world bought he followed for this day no i do not agree with this we didn't even think about what to agree with because this story was so uh funny and what we we we didn't even think that someone could attack them but this information war is not enough in an information war need to fight er in order to dispel the narratives of the other side and because this is a war of narratives we did not fight against putin's narratives and this means everything inside russia there was no real

opposition putin application er next vitaly please you worked in russia for a very long time you long you know them very well, then you moved to ukraine, you can tell us, so to speak, views from two sides, why this russian history became successful and why this war took place at all and why did it happen, i think myroslava, what should i start answering this question i don't believe in propaganda at all. when everyone says that you need to fight propaganda, i always say a simple thing. it's not russian. the people speak the language of putin and russian tv channels

. russian tv channels and putin speak the language of the russian people, and that's how it was. the russian people, like any imperial nation, always have a different idea of ​​their development than that of the valuable imperial nations, it is enough to look at the history of other imperial nations to see the traumas experienced by the british in in connection with the loss of the colony to the trauma experienced by the french in connection with the loss of algeria to the revanchist mood of germany, by the way , it was the same in the 1930s. heard by the german community, and as a result, it took two post-war decades for german society to want something else, this also did not happen on one day, may 8, 1945 , nor did it require another decade

of changes, and therefore, for me, there is nothing surprising in because what is happening is that bolshevism preserved the development of the russian state for 70 years ago, all these complexes and all these problems that other imperial states have already experienced in exactly the same sense today russia is experiencing simply after a century and we simply became contemporaries and victims of this , but nothing new and special this story does not happen except for one thing, it is a nuclear state, it is the first nuclear empire that is ready to take any steps for the return of its territories and this is an important moment and that is why when we talk about the truth it is important

we are talking about the truth. at this meeting, we have to tell the truth to ourselves, and this applies to our western allies and ourselves in relation to putin and the russians who support him, we treat them like some kind of tamagotchi. territories or part of its territories , it will have a strong position in terms of victories in the negotiations, and on this the war will end in victory, this is approximately the content and context that can be heard from ukrainian politicians from western politicians from western media, we talk about it with ukrainian society, western society as well, and i always ask what will happen if there are no negotiations . you have a plan b. ukrainian troops have reached somewhere , even reached the state borders of ukraine , which for russia are not the state borders of russia

in general, as president putin said, there are no borders, as you know, and the war continues, what kind of plan b plan do you have, if there is no plan for bc , these security guarantees will be blurred. plan b is what we are hearing today from the white house, which is not possible it is enough to attack the territory of russia. i say pankirbe that the suffering of the ukrainian people should not be transferred to the border of ukraine . cross for russian, for our western allies, what is happening in relation to ukraine all this time and for which we are used to thank measures, this is some incredible

injustice and political informational us offer to fight with a nuclear state ourselves to see how many of us are enough, this is such an experimental room so that later considering how many of us are enough to take into account our own actions in relation to this nuclear state, and i want to convince you that if we are not enough , new wars will begin in the post-soviet space here many people say that there will be chaos, the problem in ukraine chaos is the problem in ukraine - this is a small problem for the west , a big problem for the west is the restoration of all russian borders, and because the russian the idea is absolutely logical, the imperial idea from uzhgorod to ashgabat used to be europe from paris to vladivostok. it seems to me that from lisbon to vladislav, well , there will be no such europe. but russia from uzhgorod to ashgabat will be built by war , death, bombings, millions of refugees , everything

this we may still have to live through but why i am talking about this is because we do not talk about it with people we talk with people here and in the united states and in europe as if people are little children we create a picture of the world that is the opposite of the picture of the world that creates russian propaganda pictures of the world of russian propaganda everything is clear sooner or later we will win not in three years you in five not in 5 years yes in 10 the russian people are used to suffering why should they suffer for the sake of the territory once again we will respond we will talk or you will see there will be negotiations peace and happiness none of these theses are based on any political narrative and we need to talk about it as soon as we start telling the truth to ourselves we will get closer to the end of this war well not this year yes 24

not 24th and 25th at least we will see somewhere, no one can see the end now, and this is a huge problem of what is happening, and i think that we are not perfecting it here either, because we are used to it. we are used to it. myroslava, now we want to be popular. this is optimistic information. i hear all the time that i scare people. why do you scare people if you tell them that and you just want to hang yourself and do nothing, but i always say something else if we don't tell people the truth sooner or later the day will come when they will learn about this truth, but we are not in front of our eyes all the time speech the prime minister of armenia was never respected on the day when he signed an agreement with president aliyev, president putin , on the end of the second karabakh war, and the shocked armenian people, who were waiting for victory , saw it on television screens in the reports of journalists and the speeches of politicians

, and instead of this victory was a shameful defeat . i am not saying that it will be like this for us, but even if some of our expectations do not come true, it can be compared to the effect experienced by the armenians, that is why i always urge and politicians and journalists and this is much more important than fighting russian propaganda believe me to tell the truth to my compatriot the truth about the possible options for the development of events it is better to scare people today or did they not expect some incredible prospects than to face the situation when they will be in despair because their expectations will not come true with this crisis, we simply won't know what to do, it will be chaos and the collapse of our state. i absolutely do not want

to live to see this . thank you very much. actually i want to turn today to uh to yevgen ah uh uh yes yevhen fedchenko has been working on the stopfake project for years started right after the revolution of dignity jesus now go away you have been a leading force in this fight against russian fakes you have done a very important thing

you essentially achieved the point that the world began to look for ways to combat russian propaganda, it was already working successfully, then in my work, since the 14th year , we really did a lot in order to make a map of disinformation in the political discourse, so to speak, because before that no one i didn't think about it, it's all a place, uh, because how to say a clause, the result of a war is never final, and that's why for us this information war has been going on for many years. i think that it will continue for many more years, because as soon as russia loses on the fronts, they d- added- more and more non -kinetic tools will be used such tools as disinformation

, cyberattacks, information leaks, etc. this is exactly what russia is ready to do, knows how to do, and unfortunately, in the west , i have little understanding of how much this is. living and inviolable system that was created in russia and to what extent they can interfere not only in ukraine. since here we have already created serious restrictions for russia in ukraine and this work was successful, but i am talking more about other countries where we see that - people are already saying that we have won the information war , as was said by some of the conference, let's learn to live with misinformation, that is, let's supposedly

start to ignore disinformation and not expect that it can affect us in any way. i think this is a big mistake. now we see how it is precisely the topic of disinformation that disappears from the political agenda, in contrast to how it was at the beginning, it was somewhere from 2014, when it is used in addition to kinetic means of struggle, i cannot say that it is wrong . since we see quite dangerous trends, it is being restructured quite quickly . they they are trying to divide this system with information into segments and direct it to individual countries in europe or latin america, spasm or spanish-speaking

countries where we see a russian deformation works, say, in spain, there is such a thing under the system of disinformation that acts on eh and eh or on the eh extreme left or extreme right in the same way in latin america, in france, in germany, this disinformation is adapted to the target audience and it is already being transformed actually, it is not purely russian, but this one becomes so, er, quasi-local, quasi-local, and therefore, to fight with it, you have to define yours with this kind of information , russia is now actively investing huge money in this is the third

, this is a huge audience from them in various in the speech classrooms uh, on the night of the verkhovna lux, we cannot ignore this because i am saying that there are many jews here that we are winning in the information war, you can switch to something else. this is a completely wrong approach because in the information war you cannot get the final and final is a victory and close all opportunities for russia to undermine the political systems of other countries , since none of the political systems of any country in the world is protected from such blows , neither now nor in the future, that's exactly what it's all about i wanted to ask you additionally if you see any tendency on the part of western governments in the mass media and ordinary people to bathe in russian

propaganda, or do you also observe this in the context of the war in ukraine, or has something changed in terms of the perception of russian information in the countries of the world? well, i can say that on the beginning of the aggression, the situation has changed somewhat, as it was a big alarm for everyone, and then it became somewhat marginal. and now we see the opposite trend, we see that there are people who help russia in this, let's say it is spreading to artem that ukraine is a nazi state and there are many such figures abroad who are looking for information that can show ukraine as such, that is, people have already gone through this first stage of shock and now we see how

they are raising their heads again those who cast their votes for russia, that is, there are active political processes in this regard, but the relevance and problems are now somewhat receding into the background and many parties are not joining their efforts in the fight against information, i think we can solve this problem only on global levels, and at the moment everyone is doing their best, we in ukraine are separated from other countries, we fight disinformation, other countries are on their own, and again there is no such

synthesis of knowledge in this regard, but on the other hand , ukraine is the country where the most information about russian dictation goes strategy, tools, platform, approaches, we know all this and are ready to share this knowledge and experience, but unfortunately, everyone plays this game on their own, and this significantly reduces the effectiveness of the fight against disinformation . we know that in the midst of war, many told the west that kyiv will fall in three days, everyone must leave ukraine, the russian army is powerful, you will never be able to overcome it and so on, the assessment of ukraine by the west was

wrong and the assessment of russian power in the west was also wrong. what do you think or how did this affect what affected on er, this is er, a false false impression, a false assessment from an academic point of view, as a representative of academic circles, i can tell you how in various spectrums of academic and other circles there was an underestimation of ukraine of ukrainian society and the first assessment of russia, but what we are talking about here is a much broader issue, but it is generally about understanding in the west what a ukrainian is, what it is, that is, we have moved from ukraine with the article to ukraine

ukraine is a book, they say, canadian historian marta dychok i wrote and specifically named this e-e book so from ukraine to ukraine. that is, we are this co-concept where ukraine is a part of something else, i.e. russia . an independent separate state, people perceived it as part of something else, but the teaching of history both in america and in western europe had

a lot of wrong mistakes until recently . what kind of root is it, let's say in some strange way, russia expanded its borders or moved in space and so on and so on. it's all for many reasons. it 's just a myth, not history, if you look at ukrainian history after the conquest by the mongols of kyiv and russia, then we must also talk about the polish-lithuanian grand duchy of ukraine and poland, and it was actually part of europe, and ukraine was part of this europe for 600 years and only for less than 200 years. it was part of the russian

empire . shorter, much less but in the west , they absolutely did not understand this, not understanding that ukraine is a european state that was separated from europe for two centuries due to the imperial policy of russia. i read the history of this region to my students, i speak you are very lucky because what we why i was taught in terms of the history of this region was absolutely no no no right no wrong a european state that was artificially separated from europe due to russian imperialism. so, all of this led to the fact that we greatly underestimated ukraine, but i think

that if i was fooled once, then maybe i am not a fool. if i am fooled a second time, then it's definitely a fool a-a what can you say about your education, the study of ukraine and history , we all had an education in the course of the last 40 years, let's say so much was connected with the soviet policy of nationalities and then rival states appeared in the post-soviet space, and as