well, maybe i'm not stupid yet. if you fool me a second time, then i'm definitely a fool . and what can you say about your education, the study of ukraine and history, we all had education during the last 40 years. let's say so much was connected with the soviet policy of the nationalities of the rival states in the post-soviet space and as they say in italy and i will be completely frank here, this whole idea is completely incomplete because

the empire is coming to its historical end and the population of the empire is changing its views we saw this recently in european history in the 1950s, the french, who had always considered algeria a part of france, decided that that country was not part of france, and that's all, because of that and at that time, the majority of the world said and forget it, and they did because of a combination of different political transformations were changed because they looked at algeria differently then there was a period of political assertiveness in serbia, at first it

was a source of political support it would seem to political entrepreneurs and then suddenly ceased to be so played a role in this nato as we know, but it is important to remember that empires are not eternal, they are based on military power and political concepts, and all this changes over time with a military coup , the political consensus can be defeated , and here i insist that we are not doing enough in what concerns the second parts we do a lot in the sense of military defeat but not enough we ask the question whether or not you

are about a political consensus that is durable and long-lasting but it will be an extremely important issue as important as the military choice of this war yes yes well they should go side by side yes indeed because in the end the results of the war will depend on whether this consensus in russia will be preserved or will crumble in serbia it crumbled in france it crumbled we must do everything so that it crumbles and russia has a very good opinion and this leads us logically to vitaly's opinion, are there any signs

that this political consensus may be disintegrating and that russia may also change its politicians and how can we apply this to t- changes must be proved er-e believe that we we can prove the complete facts to the russians and they will live in these facts as sunday as we like and as it corresponds to reality here is a great example in recent days the chairman of the constitutional court of the russian federation comes to the president of russia vladimir putin and brings a duplicate of some geographical map this was history both have a legal education, that is, they can read textiles. there is no word on the map of ukraine . there is a map where ukraine is written twice. i

would have thought that maybe he did it on purpose brings this map of putin says to this you see mr. president the word ukraine has never been written here here we are written and here it is not written and then he says yes indeed and it cannot be written here and i remembered my political impressions i remember how during the russian - ukrainian negotiations on the delimitation of the sea of ​​azov, the head of our delegation, the deputy minister of foreign affairs of ukraine, anton buteyko, came to the negotiations with a map of the general staff of the armed forces of the soviet union and said, you see, the line runs between ukraine and russia federation, and his russian colleagues told

him, well, what is the map of the general staff of the armed forces of the soviet union, what is the map of the general staff of the armed forces of the soviet union? these are the only normal maps that can be, this is the real border , this russian colleague says buteyko, there should be appropriate decisions on the borders of the presidium of the supreme council of the russian federation presidium of the verkhovna rada of the ukrainian ssr approved by the presidium of the verkhovna rada of the soviet union, the secret is these very decisions that were adopted in crimea, but when it was necessary to annex them , they said, what is the significance of such decisions, it has no meaning, so the verkhovna rada of the soviet union, some kind the council of ukraine and the russian federation where are the maps of the general staff of the armed forces of the russian federation of the soviet union, why are there none? that is, we are fighting virtual reality. we are fighting a country whose political culture is basically built on

i didn't invent the first lies. well, it's just that the russians are lying to us, the little green men in crimea are not there, but in the belgorod region they are the ukrainian troops , they can't be some little green men. pay attention to what they say and pay attention to how we can co-exist with them in this specific version of the development of history .

the wall is like in the game of thrones, well, something is happening there, some dead people are walking somewhere among themselves there, they are making out. when they are alive, we will be able to establish relations with them, for now, we just have to stay with this wall, i will tell myroslav that our huge achievement of the ukrainian people is that we managed to get from the place behind the wall to the fortress between the civilized world and this world of the dead it is so so night watch we are in this wark our next goal is to move from this night watch to the civilized world and wait for the dead resurrecting is as far as i remember the main idea of ​​christianity, let's wait, maybe the dead will be resurrected there before we come to all other christians. the question is how dead they are, it doesn't matter how dead they are, again, it does matter how

high the wall is, okay vitaliy to my question i didn’t answer, so i’ll forward it to yevgeny, perhaps rewording it in a certain way in ukrainian society. we talk a lot about the liberal media, about good and bad russians, who is a good russian, who is bad russian, we talk a lot about snakes in general and do you see the role of the liberal russian mass media in supporting russian propaganda in the west, that's a great question because there are certain contradictions. does anyone believe that there are other russian mass media that promote the liberal order ?

denny, but knew that and the position we see as analysts is that there is no difference between what is done by russian propaganda and those russian publications that have moved abroad, since these propaganda media of russia have a very strong influence on the russian audience as well as on those who live abroad. they have audiences abroad, not only in russia , and these two audiences have relevant content that they consume, and the russian diaspora abroad and russians in russia, whatever the regime change, be about tests against the war, and they are also not

are considered good russians because good russians help ukraine to fight against construction on the world stage on a global scale on the world stage and actually very often the liberal mass media echo the main narratives of the propagandists, they do not implement or promote the russian regime, but they in a certain way help to support it and we see that there are alternative networks of influence abroad and a centralized propaganda machine, when it falls , it will use the blacksmiths of this network abroad and they will be called liberal, call themselves liberal , as if they have nothing to do with

propaganda russia but in fact we don't see a big difference between them because they don't stand against this war they don't stand against propaganda and uh we see a significant reduction in the content of disinformation which aimed at russia or outside russia because we do not see any influence of liberal changes on the russian audience, so we look at how it affects the ukrainian audience, western euro europe and the global south. and er russians can get access to any

information they need but they don't seek it they don't look for such alternative information they don't want to consume it they don't want to see obvious things that's why i i absolutely agree with vitaliy here, thank you dear, returning to the system of assumptions expressed by steven that empires are dying, dying, how can we change russian approaches? you work at radio svoboda, now radio svoboda has a huge russian-language service and it is aimed at the russian audience in russia on russian-speakers and actually it is designed

to work for a russian-speaking audience, and it was created in the 15th year with the idea of ​​a russian-speaking audience in places like ukraine or georgia or elsewhere listened to channel one and consumed information from channel one, and i agree that we are not doing enough to influence public opinion in the russian federation for quite a long time, and i was skeptical about the effectiveness and efficiency of changing public opinion in russia, i am very skeptical, er, i er, treat this in the same way as to the fact that it should be our priority, what is happening in russia and who i have studied russia all my life, what is happening in the middle of russia is not

as important to me than what happens in this is the most important thing for ukraine now. ukraine is our partner and will soon be our official partner, and allies, this is the most important thing. we have to focus resources and energy on this. how is the empire and the imperial mentality ending due to the punishment of the empire? germany lost the second world war and was occupied. serbia lost to allied countries and this led to the end of their imperial mentality , the same will happen in russia when it decisively and not the reverse loses in this war and we must ensure the victory of ukraine and the loss

russia and the final and what will already happen there is the business of the russians, if they will be found on their own borders , that is their business, we have to help and protect our partners and allies, and they can stay there. the main thing is that they do not threaten our partners and allies, etc. we should not prioritize what is happening in russia , and if we prioritize relations with russia, then only because of our relations with our partners who are allies, how can we formulate all this, what does this defeat mean, how the russians will lose and what will that mean how will we know about it how will they know you can lose a war but the question is which war

did you lose putin is able to continue supporting this war i think partly based on his views on ukraine but i'm not sure that very many people read his article but i'm sure that people hear what people hear are regular claims that the west is trying to destroy russia and we have never dispelled this statement. so we say it's not a provoked war, so it's not a case, it's not a provoked ukraine. but putin says that it's not what is the war with you, the question is that the world wants to destroy russia and we must answer this question. how would

you answer this question? i would start by saying that this is an absolute lie and there is no basis for this because putin started talking about it that he takes more from the russian people. i would be quite frank about it. i think it is a myth that we can prove that we must . i think that in the world of political narratives it is quite effective if the signal of every western leader to the russian people is that putin is lying to you about something fundamental that leads to tens of thousands of deaths over the years based on lies then it could potentially

be more powerful than you think well you could say it's not our job to do it but maybe it's our opportunity to do it because he's waging a war based on absolute lies and we have to to point this out and again remembering what vitaliy said, we talked about the new barvinsky, the new berlin wall. i worked in the reagan administration on the initiative to overcome the berlin sea, and in the end, after i left, it all became quite successful and this because we were ambitious, no ugu and our radio svoboda worked effectively at that time , so we and you don't forget about the voice of america , well, the voice of america was even more important, and you know what i think we were not ambitious enough in

that we could counteract putin's lies. we thought that we only have a military way in this war. this is not quite right. we are not only a military way, and god bless the soldiers at the front who are waging this war and the people in the rear who are helping them, but that's the sense . but this is a consensus in russia there is something we need to break it. for this, we need to work much harder to prepare for the issue of the russian media. exiled i can say that criticism of the exiled russian media is ineffective, that they only say what they say later. but those who listen to the russian media

in exile, they do not always say what they say. putin, the question is whether they are effective, and whether we help them to become effective, we need to work harder for this, it is possible, radio freedom itself can do it, but why would it not be , could they be real russian snakes, what would question putin's lies and openly act against them. thank you very much, interesting, interesting moment. russians don't believe that ukrainians are dying anyway, but they don't know that russians are dying. i want to be the devil's advocate and say that putin is not lying when he says that the west wants to destroy russia. i was present at the meeting of the congress of people 's deputies of the russian federation in 1991. i

think it was a year or two when decisions were made about what the russian soviet federative socialist republic would be called, and practically most of the deputies of this congress, they wanted the russian soviet federative socialist republic to be called russia, simply russia, it is called the russian federation because of the hyphen in the constitution of russia, it is written that way only because there was a protest then by deputies from the national republics who wanted it to remain a federation. the russian federation is the former russian soviet federative socialist the republic within the borders of 1991, and russia is a state within the borders of 1922, this is the soviet union. and from the first days of their state's existence, they wanted to return this soviet union

therefore, the west, which, as pansystanevich says, wants russia to exist within the borders of the russian federation, he wants to destroy russia, the russia that is in the head of president putin and the russia that is in the heads of millions of his compatriots, and no matter how much they are told that putin is lying, they will know for sure that he tells the truth because for them russia is not this piece of territory on which they now live, for them russia is the territory from uzhgorod to the power of the ashkhab to what they conquered and defended in the second world war stalin's empire and this stalin's empire about which stalin agreed with churchill and roosevelt, the west wants to destroy what is not clear here, they think so, there is a complex structure there is a proposal from the russian federation for security guarantees that were offered before the russian attack on ukraine it is clearly written there that none of the former soviet republics can join nato, not only ukraine, not only georgia, none of all the countries that were

liberated by the soviet army in 1945 , the latest weapons must be withdrawn, it is written there, it is written in fact, what they tell us, or you will give us the opportunity revive the soviet union with its sphere of influence or we are at war with you. i am not at all sure that even if russia loses this war against ukraine, everything will not stop there, it will not stop , i think that it will fight in central asia, it will fight in the caucasus where there will be no guarantee of security there will be a war , you just have to adjust and just understand, just understand how we will live for the next 10 years, you just have to adjust to the war for 10-15 years and calm down in the end or close or provide a guarantee of security to everyone those whom russia wants to deprive of sovereignty that's all the optimism rating i think we are wasting

our time and resources stephen said of mine that the west is trying to destroy russia first i have a practical view that it is really in the interests of the west as well as the west at the time didn't really want to break up the soviet union. and many people here remember the speech of the 41st president of the united states, george bozh, who spoke in the parliament of the then ukrainian ussr , urging ukraine not to deny its independence and to break up the soviet union if america wanted to destroy the soviet union so that he asked ukraine not to declare independence, but people still believe in it. that's why i 'm skeptical about opposing this

absolutely ridiculous narrative because it's just a waste of time and money, we need to develop ukraine and spend forces, money for the development of ukraine and the united states, the united states never promised and could not promise . the soviet union will not expand. this is again absurd, and not a single one. they continue to believe these absurd things, they continue to repeat them, i don't think we need to spend time opposing these meetings , russia will only change when it doesn't have a catharsis in a row and i, mykola

, had a heart attack in 2019 and i had to change my lifestyle, otherwise i would have big problems with russia as well. russia 's attitude towards ukraine will change if it also survives the situation . huge it's just mykola what do you think russia should look like and it legitimizes myths, this is imperialism and we all know dr. brzezinski explained to us that russia with ukraine is an empire russia without ukraine is not an empire russia

is losing ukraine and it will lose ukraine and this myth and then the question and what are we now because ukraine is going to recover from this absurd myth that we had with the honor of the moscow principality is interconnected and all this should lead russia to this catharsis when it has to ask itself the question of how we will live again, our problem is ours the task is to unite the event as a whole. united collective event

, as we call it, everyone says that we need to do and work hard to do something, but any program is to maintain the unity of the event. we can do it perfectly. we must be proud of these biden administrations, ukraine and other european governments share the achievements among themselves, but this is not the end of history, when empires fall apart , political clashes arise, clashes between the remaining political interests in the country and

who are trying to take control of the institutions of wealth, the interests have cut it, and this is a process that can be influenced by how russia looks at relations with the outside world, and if we do nothing, if we say that this war simply means the destruction of russia and nothing, we will not do this, we let's just let the pagans win and then the people who have spent their whole lives studying russia will not be satisfied with this and me and they won't say that we shouldn't spend, we don't tell you this, but i'm a more powerful innovator consensus and we don't do anything yet