[000:00:00;00] on the 20th, let's actually continue our big conversation. we have half an hour left. there are many questions. i will briefly remind his guests viktor yagun, major general of the sbu in reserve , former deputy head of the sbu, ilya ponomaryov , russian position holder, yuriy romanenko , co-founder of the ukrainian institute of the future. natalya, formulate the topic why? have we reached whether the russians themselves can change the government in the russian federation, this is what we are talking about today, in the meantime, we need to discuss the panels. yes, we must say that now, in the last few hours, information has appeared that the russians are preparing such a large-scale provocation at the zaporizhzhya npp, and this is not the first such provocation last fall. they also tried to do it. well, they want to simulate a leak of nuclear fuel and, uh, uh, to raise a bat, all the bells in order

to raise money there for the magat and in this way they are trying to limit ukraine's counteroffensive capabilities there and uh, it means blocking it in fact so that well, how do you think it can block, we can still go lower in the south well, they will blow it around if they they will launch it, they will think about it, there is such a big scandal there, er, to say that it is necessary to intervene there, to stop hostilities, to stop hostilities , yes, because there will be a world catastrophe there , etc. it's not the first time that such things have been asked to be done. they were thwarted several times last fall, and that's why . well, now it's necessary to give maximum publicity to this information. well, of course, it

's the same moment, because they understand that shifting responsibility to ukraine is very it is difficult, they have already tried to do some things that became public, in particular, maybe someone does not know, they drove the ship to mariupol and tried to remove the nuclear fuel that was at the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant presented by the united states, and then there was a statement by the united states that there are materials belonging to the united states that are protected by the laws of the lowering of the states and we warn you about the actions that can lead to some emergency situations there and with it materials and if they end up somewhere other than where they could and that's all stopped, that is, they heard such a cry, it is actually very critical for them if they really

will make decisions on, if not sanctions , then significant restrictions in this structure in the world. i think that well, first of all, there were such hints sides of life, yes, in the first case, they were heard once and twice. france so actively wants to occupy the russian niche , that is why i think that it is even but it is not just realistic. no, they are competitors but here there are very significant competitors. look, even ukraine has been reformatted from moscow to paris to control over this , well , control over er . next time it won't work out next time it won't work out why is it worth it well, first of all, what we did, we already speak positively about it

, and secondly , it was offered to them more than once. there is an opportunity to do it, there is a certain area that is very clearly distinguished, it is not profitable for them, they want, er, they want not just to control , they want to actually use this station of the people who live there in the city as a human shield, so we understand, we offer the terrorist to give a grenade, never it is not by the way, while we were talking, subscribers on my telegram channel wrote to me that there is no light in the connection in energodar, it's not just that the connection is destroyed and the internet disappears. so that everyone understands what these scumbags are doing means that the front plus international efforts and how it will cooperate with each other and where it can all go, in which directions

ukraine should push it , what will happen on the front, what international efforts will take place i still hope that ukraine will demonstrate its own policy in terms of the fact that we said that we will not stop at the level at the level of that . political er political meeting and once again there she tried to explain to us that, dear, she says let's go there somewhere behind your back about something geopolitical, we will give you kharkiv, kherson, zaporizhzhia region, but well, with crimea, somehow, with donetsk , luhansk, somehow, let's wait another time and this and this is trying to sell us again that we are for you, we are for your victory, and i hope that such advisers

will leave somewhere after all, we are in the past, such as horse food, so if we discuss it there as bloggers on the sites in the form of sketches, that's why we get a lot of hey-tos if the poster, but they gather huge forums in the center of kyiv and talk about it without organizing a truce and in order for someone to agree with someone there, this is the norm and i'm just, well, from this from this hypocrisy, to be honest, i am so impressed by this, people are calling from the front, people are saying what is going on there, gather some, i want a couple of hundreds of people and come and tell them what you are doing here . what are you talking about safety uniforms ? allies and in certain issues we competitors, and it is necessary to understand that, and now ukraine has a military initiative in the military direction. well, that's 100%. and ukraine is now a moral leader in the world, but it is also necessary to express pragmatic

interests, and these are interests regarding the future , the competition for who will restore ukraine is ongoing and growing, and this is such a very important issue, because if there is only one settlement in russia then a huge amount of money goes from the russian direction, and there 80% of the money for the restoration of ukraine should come from russia, it is not only from the gold and currency reserves, that is all and and reparations, who must pay. but this will determine what will be controlled by ukrainians. and if it is not from the side of russia, then the control will be with the americans and europeans, who will be the main donors of this plan, the marshall plan. but it will be a small plan if you compare it

with what is needed for ukraine, but leadership and income, and that is why we also need to seize the initiative, and now is the moment that this is even possible, because there americans, english, europeans are still afraid to express their opinion about the change of power there in russia, the eastern europeans are not afraid of the eastern europeans on our side, and in general they want to arrange such an eastern european alliance and the european union. well, and compete there with germany and france . what will be the post-war arrangement of europe, the biggest problem is that when they talk about the fact that we are going to the border in 1991 , they do not tell us what will happen after that, and i

tell them all, look, we are in kharkiv oblasts in chernihiv sumy went to the border and that we got a victory or we got peace in these regions. no , it is clear that we either should not stop at the borders or we should take an active part in the reform of russia so that there is nothing there . do you understand? i'm not saying, well, it's clear that there is a dream there that there will be no empire, but there will be some kind of free country that will go. well, it's normal . well, at least canada is just as big a country. by the way, it's the same area as russia. and she also lives normally, why? russia cannot live like this. well, i don't know we need to think somehow, we need to speak, that's why crossing the state border is not a victory, it's only the first stage of victory, this question was repeatedly raised at this table. does the west have any consolidated position regarding russia and the maidan? and that's good. that is, we

will formulate it. and show then i have that and what kind of challenge are the fuckers busy there? and what kind of position do we have on that ? well, as zelensky said, i won’t say yes, it ’s something absolutely. and it’s possible. we’ve already reached such a geopolitical level. i still want to to return to the discussion what should we do with russia? well, i wrote such an article that in 2006, a concert-concept of two people, where i said that we have an existential crisis in relations and it will end in war and that we should, well, just have a long concept for ten years who will make uh well, let's say so, our movement in the political space, a meaningful space there, yes, that's why we need this discussion at the top, not only among intellectuals, because well, we have come up with a lot of things, but this discussion must be conducted at

the highest level, because unless we crystallize that's it. well, we'll just be offered there. and we have a really, really big chance in history that we've never had . if we implement it, we'll be able to move our sphere of influence very powerfully to the east , because our the key task is to move to the east, well, in terms of its influence, it means developing relations with the central, because with the south caucasus, it means with what will be in the place of russia. will there be a single state or will there be mine his beloved russia, about which some conceptor is developing and creating a new architecture in eurasia. but in any case, we must be ready for all possible scenarios so that it falls apart and it will be a nightmare for us, we must also understand it here it makes sense that there will be a lot of such challenges for which we are not ready, no one is ready, will it be like the dprk

, eurasia, yes, it is big, so powerful, well , the dprk is more powerful than the dprk, but it is a horror there , let it be ten years and be in such a state will it be gaming russia or this russia will be about zahidna, in any case, we must have our own answer to all the options , you just take out a small wallet and look at it like this. influence on the russian federation, do we have this influence? and in general, is it realistic to imagine such an influence of ukraine on the russian federation , for example, on the russian federation. therefore, it is not only intellectuals who should gather. this means that there should be such a connection from the authorities a plus in the hands of ukraine well, this war is simply the main one and there is this lever and uh, how are these russian myths and kremlin narratives, it shapes it, it shapes the future of russia, but in the same

sense as the future of ukraine, we are codependent in this respect, by the way, we are one from those moments when we break down the historical what is russia and what is it called and can russians leave the russian federation, you know , i was asked such a question, i say so, russians should define who they are, they are pomors, they are cossacks , they are novgorodians who are they, well, where they gave that that once erzer we say and they say that our capital is in ryazan then fine then and where are the russian cities where are they there well that is who are the russians who are they not russian yes so what is this concept and why can't such conferences be held here it's not possible to gather those people to communicate with those who intend to return russia in the sense that look, the entire history of russia is already uh, it is simply oppressed by these naretyms that you formed there in

those times. and all this team sonder teams yes, and in the 19th century there was the xx century, and this history simply hid a lot of things that really made russia, or what is called russia different , the novgorod republic, it was this was an alternative development of russia there, an alternative scenario of development which ivan the terrible killed very harshly there where he destroyed even there yes and that's why it's exactly the same as at one time there in the 19th century er-er means self-awareness by ukrainians it began there through taras hryhorovych there through our galaxy of writers there yes through the theater there exactly there, yes, well, because of the historians of hrushevsky, there, yes, and now in russia, we must prepare for russia. well, we played such a role with our bassoon, prokopovich, that is

, we created russia again. which will perform everything, first of all, they need the functionality that they need and we need it there, yes, you understand, that's why it will be invented in russia now, well, this is a very, very important thing for ukraine, because no one in the west does not understand russia like we do and no one there will invent yuzanovo because they look at them, they have a reactive policy, also those people who think that we are now, but today on my channel they recorded a cool broadcast and uh, they grow there, he correctly said that those who thinks that they are sitting there, it means there are eyes, it means there is mr. ax, it means there are a few of the fourth blood group , there they are, they have arrows with arrows , everything is drawn on for 50 years ahead there. in their worldview they

people too, well people, they are all ordinary people who were fine with them, they sheltered their eyes in all places, that is, in a warm place and everything was fine for ten years, now the situation is changing dramatically, they suddenly saw that china has turned from the small bull that they used to be there they launched a certain one, he is already nixon, by the way, some kind of injera , tomorrow is 100 years from his birthday, he is still alive and even launches initiatives , hey, they and nixon here, even if he was able to sum up, they here and then launched this bull on that is, to the global market there, yes, they helped him somehow get out of the cultural revolution, and at some point they simply lost control over these processes, they did not understand very well what was happening there, and the chinese turned into a really powerful player and now they sit and scratch the turnip, as they say, and they lost a year so far in china. they lost all these savitologists, which means connoisseurs, all of them mean

, uh, what did they breed in the 60s and 70s there , 80 years there, yes, and then, whoop, you appeared putin, whom they also missed, so we must understand that if we are not in such a reflective position and do not include what we have. well, we have bridges . we have understanding. we don't have to work on all this, because in this country all the guys who are currently giving us weapons there support them as soon as this minimal problem is solved in order to somehow record everything in what state yes and they will immediately switch to china and this will be the key -e means e-e is a key issue in the elections the states that will be next year of ukraine and from the side of various states . well, they say in the light of vilnuyev themselves that nato is not nato, or in these security guarantees should there be written points

there, even that there with russia, or became forests thick , and so on. how russia should be well, so that we can live safely without explaining what is the fate of russia, well, that would be wonderful but they simply do not have any vision ah yuriy is right there, all these russians, they simply disappeared , now being a rheologist in washington is just a toxic issue there, they stayed there putin fersteiners, what kind of fools do france exist and the pits of this? no, they just talk about everything in general, an expert on china more than a chinese, yes, about china, but now at the summit at the nato summit, well, no one

will talk about it. but they once again introduced one problem into their combat concept, that russia is an enemy, and that we need to prepare and deploy to defend our eastern flank, and i think they stopped at this somewhere . and this is money, and there are many people who are just interested in their own interests. we are there with poles we communicate, they say well, frankly, very frankly, we understand this , the americans want to return to the strategy of deterring russia, but deterrence at our expense. that's why we need our border countries in the east, you understand, this is our stage, all of this is formative, right , good, nuclear weapons are the last questions

of the security guard. well, of course, here again, first of all, we need a government in russia that will agree with this issue and we need to grow it and agree now, because now it is possible to agree . i believe that the best way to do this is to solve the nuclear issue of russia and if the nuclear arsenal of russia comes under international control, for example, nato control, then this will be such an umbrella and they may be interested in it, because there again china is deterring china and that's all. everything is different, but now the inertial scenario dominates, and again, when you talk to someone there in washington about the dinocularization of russia, you don’t need to touch it again, because yes, because there is no decisiveness in ukraine

, because the biggest problem is not understanding what state it is in, you understand for many years , despite of all the agreements, no one allowed international experts to at least visually see what was happening there with those mines with rockets. and when some bloggers are there somewhere, god forbid, they are filming something and we see the rockets, everyone is in shock. look what carelessness to keep such a critical nuclear weapon in close proximity to the borders with ukraine with the enemy. so, roughly speaking , the guys could go and get those tactical weapons and they only then began to act, well , this is this is just a marker of how they relate to everything they have it in god 's hands, well, listen, let's sum up. yuri has run out of water , let's sum up, let's watch now, now yuri, i want them and i want them, the beginning, because i really liked it, the formation is correct

, they spoke in such words for a long time, the construction architecture yuriy said: we need to reinvent the new russia and we must now reinvent the new russia and explain to both russia and the western partners how it should work and why this scenario is safe and everyone should be satisfied by the western partner, yes, and then spread this vision as an agreed vision of a joint effort of the whole international coalition rammstein will present the book there at the table to think about the future of russia. i'm just afraid that you know that after the war and after the victory in the west, the cracks did not go away and they thought , phew, we exhaled and well, to put it mildly, ukraine she did her job yes, but they won't give ukraine its due and this is something that needs to be worked on not in a year well, i mean, as if on a macro level, well, strategically, it won't end in a year, not in two, not

in three, well, it will still be there years eight well there are five six seven eight ten i mean that until the issue of china is resolved, so there will be no understanding of the configuration of the new architecture of the world system, then we will be in this context constantly relevant because they will watch so you know china will to see how it is possible to actualize russia against the west china uses china uses russia exactly as they are currently using ukraine the west there yes we must understand it and therefore in well we had a lot of time a lot of time to formulate our very a long game is a big culture to formulate a long money yes friends we are going to replenish the hydro balance e-e we are monitoring the situation if it is serious at the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant there e-e

we are fighting and living on our own for this ether and we are winning and what is the plan to propose an event on how to make russia safe and secure ilya ponomaryev yuriy romanenko thank you for this conversation thank you friends and you and berezhit yourself and ukraine 1+1 continues the national telethon at this time we are working in the format of the night watch discussion platform and today we decided to talk about what is happening in the occupied territories of donetsk and luhansk regions, these territories have been suffering for nine years , first from separatism under the russian flag , now from a full-fledged occupation, the topic is interesting and important. what is changing in the minds of the people who are there

live and change in the heads of the separatist leaders, we will talk about this with maria vasilova, i am yevgeny plinskyi, and we are visiting denys kazansky, journalist, blogger , ex-representative of donetsk in the temporary contact group of minsk, which has actually ended its existence, denys is very professional a person in this topic , so the conversation will definitely be interesting. thank you for coming. good afternoon . on may 20, we celebrate a rather sad anniversary, a very sad one, in fact, when the ukrainian military was forced to leave mariupol. and what it actually turned into, we can now to see already a year later, the occupiers began demolishing the old, ruined buildings there, and building birdhouses instead of them in order to house people, in fact, this process looks like restoration, but it is very scary. because during the demolition of these

buildings, in particular, the drama theater they demolished it just to destroy the traces of their crimes. well, actually, by demolishing the houses, they liquidate them, destroy them along with the corpses of people who were killed in these apartments. well, it is also unknown where they resettle those people for whom housing has not yet been built because even these birdhouses we don't see them very much and ato so the real question is denis what do you think the people who stayed in this mariupol to live who saw their city as a blooming beautiful city such a picture for all the rest of the residents should think it's no secret to donbas that mariupol was made such a beautiful beautiful picture so that the residents of other occupied territories of donbas could see that ukraine is actually good. how do you think people perceive this

process of so-called recovery, first of all let's say that restoration is very conditional, it is very loudly said restoration, because in fact, even according to the data of the occupiers themselves , which they published in mariupol , 600 apartment buildings were destroyed, in fact and more. and according to our data, there are a thousand and more and 600 destroyed, and they built them as they themselves admitted at the beginning of this year, 22 houses, well, that is, you can count how many will have to be built. you can't say because the destroyed nine-story buildings are being built. i saw such small houses there, but it's very poor quality housing that is built very quickly and it 's actually like that. well

, housing made of the cheapest materials, which can formally be considered housing , but it's a replacement of the city with its architecture according to its atmosphere, that is, a city as a city. yes, a full-fledged city is just a replacement with some kind of barracks, yes, they are. of course, these are not the barracks that existed 100 years ago, but this is actually a city without a soul. it's simple some kind of cluster of houses is simply on a certain piece of land, this is actually the destruction of mariupol as such, that is, the old streets, yards , all this is disappearing, and now they are building as much as they are destroying ; it didn't look so scary, that is , when all these half-ruined houses are standing around germany, it certainly makes a terrible impression, they want to make up for this impression, they

just tear it down and it's just a wasteland wastelands, and in fact they are simply destroying the city, the city is disappearing, the only thing they do not demolish en masse is the city center, and because there are many old houses there that also survived hitler's occupation but did not survive the russian occupation, they are all standing destroyed. i understand that they do not know what to do with them it is completely scary for them to demolish them and it is impossible to restore them, and the center is in such a terrible condition . what is the attitude of the people who stayed in mariupol to the events that are happening ? people who for the shortest period of their lives faced the realities of the russian world. well, of course, these people are still in shock . they experienced a terrible trauma, and i think that most of them are recovering by the end of their lives, that is, people who decided to stay. well, they made such a choice accordingly, in one way or another, they are forced to adapt to the let's say that

in the reality that exists, that is, the occupation under the occupation administration. well, in principle, i think that one way or another these people are conscious, who have just some common sense, they understand that it happened that russia simply destroyed them in the city, but well, in principle, even here again . they recently published with pride and wrote that half of the population of mariupol has returned or lives in mariupol, but this is half of the population. that is, there were 460,000 now, even if they are telling the truth, and i doubt it in this if even 230 there and another 230 this is what these are people whom you killed, whom you expelled, who have nowhere to return to because their houses simply disappeared, life there is simply terrible. i remember literally in the fall there, and there were huge fires and the wind was spreading the fire and people did not know how to extinguish this fire except to go to the sea and collect water there and somehow pour water on their one-story houses on their own because there is nothing you can do to help them if