[000:00:00;00] part of the so-called berlin process, which was initiated by angela merkel, and in berlin it was precisely positioned that there will be no borders in the economic sense, not in the political sense, as integration for further european integration. i think that in the near future this union will so to speak, montenegro will also join, because the current government is somehow very positively commenting on the autokosa, categorically against it, and i think that, apart from everything else , they will pressurize kosa a about what they will pressurize from brussels to join this union, it's just like that, you know the trick -is

european integration and it really benefits, well, at least that's what the albanian leadership says, it's the leadership in order to facilitate the movement of goods, finances, people, services across the border. and it gives supposedly economic benefits to every albanian there, north macedonian or the same serb, at least that's what they say. well, hmm they don't want kosovo because of political reasons, and montenegro didn't want it before because of political reasons, too. thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, you immediately joined our team . nataliya ishchenko, the head of the balkan observer project, was with us directly. we are now let's take a short break in a few minutes, we'll come back and continue ether, there are discounts on orasept oral spray 20% in pharmacies traveller, you and save pain can

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drugstores travel card to you and savings war raised its head again in europe, reminding us of the darkest hours of our history franz 24 constantly covers events in ukraine, our team on the ground and in the studio will inform you about the dynamics of events more up-to-date from franz 24 in ukrainian on espresso i congratulate you this is freedom life on radio freedom we have already come to the very change the following frames may shock you news from the scene live kamikaze drone attacks political analysis objectively and meaningfully there is no political season exclusive interviews

reports from the hottest points of the front svoboda life openly and impartially draw conclusions ourselves, we continue the saturday pole angelika sezonka and vitaly portnikov, you are just now the main political events of the world vitaliy parnikov for us it's about someone, sir vitaly, i propose to start with the indonesian peace plan for ukraine, and in particular the president, or rather the minister of defense of indonesia, mr. subian, proposed his peace plan to end the war in ukraine , namely the cessation of hostilities by indonesian peacekeepers on our territory and a referendum. and he voiced this plan at the international summit shengel's dialogue in singapore he believes that to put an end to the war between ukraine and russia

, it is necessary to immediately cease fire , according to him, this will prevent the situation from worsening , increasing the number of victims of new destruction and more it is also noted that he believes that the peacekeepers will come in order to fix the territories captured by russia, will they come in as support for russia or what ? because it conquered these three temporarily occupied territories on this situation from the russian point of view so that we do not discuss in ukrainian because from the ukrainian point of view all this is clear and we talked about it eh ministry of foreign affairs of ukraine quite clearly answered this question that there are no common territories between russia and ukraine, that this is an invention of indonesia, that this is our territory , they are occupied by russia so that we do not

negotiate, russia must recognize this fact that it must withdraw from these territories everything is logical that if you leave russia in these territories, it will allow them to strengthen, it will allow them to prepare for a new war, to defend these territories in the event of an attack by the ukrainian army , etc., but let's look at this situation not from dasha a's point of view, but from the point of view moscow is the territory of the autonomous republic of crimea, sevastopol, donetsk, luhansk, kherson and zaporizhzhia regions, they are included in the russian federation. i apologize as an independent state, because the decisions were made before their adoption in various forms, or the decision of the crimean parliament of the crimean parliament declared crimea an independent state and the sevastopol city council that sevastopol was declared an independent state there and after that the prices of independent states announced that they

were joining russia in a referendum the so-called donetsk and luhansk people's republics also declared themselves independent states first and then held a referendum on joining russia . it was different in the kherson zaporizhzhia region, they declared themselves independent states on its battlefield and held a referendum on joining russia at the same time they did not even change us, they will say this is an independent state. kherson region is a comedy. and from the point of view of russian constitutional law, this is the acceptance of new states into the russian federation. and from the point of view of russian legislation, any calls to change the territorial structure of russia and its territorial integrity are punishable by law, this is a criminal offense, there is something like 10 or 15 years of imprisonment for the calls themselves, not because you want to lead international troops or some foreign troops to this territory. for the fact that you simply start

discussing it with me, we will start discussing it with you on the air of russian television. let us introduce peacekeeping forces on the territory of crimea, because this is a common territory between us and ukraine, if you you say, in principle, comrades of the investigative committee of the russian federation may already be waiting for you there, therefore, in this situation, you can hope that some kind of action is actually connected with the territorial integrity of russia on the part of moscow, and it is inappropriate. and the question arises. then the indonesian peace plan it coincides with what they say in china and with what they say in brazil , they have the same idea, what they are based on is that the ukrainian army, simply physical, will not be

able to liberate all these territories, while the russian the army cannot physically be capable of conquering ukraine in its entirety, so the compromise must be that russia accepts the fact that it cannot conquer ukraine in its entirety, and ukraine surrenders the fact that it cannot regain its territories . this is the moment we start a dialogue, this is real. thing is an absolutely real moment related to the future dialogue between moscow and kyiv from the point of view of china and its related countries, because all these initiatives are the same, they seem to come from different directions, but for by and large, this is a country that has good relations with china and china itself, and i don't even think that they would really like any referendums and some kind of withdrawal or introduction of troops, they want to fix what you

also said about a ceasefire on the breathing line so that ukraine admitted that she cannot fight further and russia has admitted that not only she cannot fight further, but the moment for this has definitely not yet come, the announcement of the same plans, to which every time we say no, it does not suit us, no, we do not want it, what is the purpose of this the pressure is certain this is bargaining with the west that this is happening first. this is the so-called predicted future so that when it becomes obvious from the point of view of china, indonesia or brazil that the war has led to the exhaustion of both sides, they can say well, we offered it to you and now you can agree to of our idea, of course, if you had done this two or three years ago, you would have lost so many lives , everything would not have been destroyed, they can say this not only to us, but also to the russians, but we offered you a good idea to wash it so that you do not

want to fight. you have what you have the west which is fueling the war which still cannot end from the point of view of all these people victory of either side is basically the idea of ​​president lola which was more clearly expressed ukraine has the full right to defend these territories and win them back the west has the full right to supply arms to ukraine but the countries those who say that you will not win the war with russia also have the right to search for ways to peace because they see the situation much more realistically than criticism than the ukrainians, they simply understand that ukraine will not win and already today, ukrainians are told that you don't want to live, to live, or do you want to be born, then the land? well, we have our option - this is the option of life, and your option is the option of death, and whether you choose life or death is their approach - of course, but what are they for? necessary in order to justify their own ties with russia, because if they say all this and russia says yes, we really want negotiations

, simply recognition of territorial realities , and ukraine says, what negotiations do we need for victory, so that russia leaves our land? then she doesn't say well, you see, in principle, russia would really like to end the war, it is a peace-loving state, she says all the time we have simple conditions for negotiations related to our security, territorial realities, demilitarization , neutral status, all such nonsense, and we countries of the global rooster say well if you don't like these territorial realities , well, at least hold a referendum there, make sure that the population there wants to be in russia, what is a referendum when russian troops are stationed there , of course and if these machines are also added to russian submachine guns will be given by some indonesian or brazilian ones. i will tell you a story about an indonesian. what was it all about? the political position

of donets. in 1975, it seems, indonesia annexed the territory of the portuguese colony on the island of timor , which before that, after many years of portuguese rule, declared its independence under the of the people's democratic republic and down to the bottom they said that this has nothing to do with statehood, that it is part of timur, which is always has been and will be denezian the question between the two parts of this island i am very simple, the russian part has a muslim population, the portuguese lived catholic, well, this is the heritage of different countries , because the portuguese part converted to catholicism, on the indonesian part, there were dutch people who were more relaxed about local religious preferences, well, that’s how it

happened did they usually rely on their pro-indonesian forces in this east timor that announced the accession guerrilla struggle began that continued for several decades, they imprisoned this head of this eastern government for many years, he then became the first president of the republics and then the head of indonesia, general eh suharta. i think that the president is sugary , the president of indonesia at that time, the president sugary thought that this is how it should be and even some countries have already begun to recognize this little by little, but

the international community has never recognized it when the sokarin dictatorship was overthrown, indonesia began to say that it needed loans from the international monetary fund, and it also needed that everything and western countries were needed , i said well, of course, we really want to help you recover economically after the dictatorship, after what, but please hold a referendum on the eastern type they held a referendum there and under their own control , 98% of the voting participants voted for independence, and they expected a completely different result after that the indonesian army staged an attack in the capital of east timor deli is a real bloodbath that a huge number of people were beaten there, just simply you know, as a sign of disappointment, this is their historical experience, and i remember what year

it was, but the president of indonesia was sokal in the eastern part of indonesia, a province, it was the 90s, as far as i know i remember the president was just approaching the zenith of his power, and i met in stockholm with the then minister of foreign affairs of the migration government of timur dzhozer amortysh orto, he is now the president, it can he is the new laureate of the nobel peace prize and i met him. i think i was the first journalist from this post-soviet space who talked to him. he was giving a lecture . about the future of our independence, i began to ask him how he imagines

the possibility of this independence at all, when it is completely indonesian . the province, the troops are stationed there, the partisan movement has actually been defeated, and he tells me. and tell me, dear mr. journalist, why are you so interested in this ? i have never heard that you are colleagues there, even from europe was so interested in who you can be with. and this was the period when the president of crimea was mishkov and russia was actually preparing for the secession of crimea, and i told him i think that ukraine will fall into the same situation that i think that we will have a secession from russia will tear off territories. i think we will have such conflicts and i want to understand because russia is a state in our region of the same level as your indonesia. if russia can occupy some of our territory, will we ever be able to return them back and i want to understand

what do you hope for and he tells me, you know, i am starting from a fairly simple form. imagine that this sea would declare its independence and in 675 years after we were under the portuguese ruler, half of our island is indonesia, the next island is indonesia, we are all around completely surrounded by indonesia, please tell me which state would lead in our policy, internal , external, whatever, we would actually become the most loyal state to it, to indonesia, because we needed the economic assistance of its goods, its infrastructure, its its airports are all and very few in our face, the best and most famous ally, what is president sukar doing, he is annexing our territory, he is provoking the partisan movement , strengthening the separatist movements on other islands of indonesia, where people are starting to say, if

timur is fighting for independence, why can't we, we are also other people we also deserve independence creates separatist conflicts this is relations with european countries that portugal says we did not give deniza the right to annex our territory it was our colony we gave we did not give them their independence to denmark, this is absolutely the case, and it is the way all other european countries that are members of the european union and such is idiocy, the very decision about annexation is idiocy. and i, he says, proceed from the simple fact that if people make one idiotic decision, they must will definitely make all the following idiotic decisions and thus this regime will collapse. and when it collapses and wants to return to the civilized world , the first thing that the civilized world will say to it is that you could not restore international law and we we will get independence, not even because we want it, but because it will simply be a demand for a civilized education for indonesia, ask

the people in the eastern part of this row how they want to live in the future and he told me all this, i can't say that i fully believe it although he does it happened, but it happened. and when i watched jozera amushorty arrive in action, it was there, there were whole informational events, such uh, sensations , how he meets this president i remembered this conversation and thought nugin amorshorta was right, he basically saw what happened for me too . by the way, this is a recipe for what will happen in russian-ukrainian relations. so when someone says that uh, i also say that the guarantee of our victory is a military decision . i absolutely

i believe in this because i don't see any possibilities for a political solution to the problems from russia, but i simply perceive these people as idiots, political idiots, because i believe that everything they did regarding ukraine was a mistake, we were in the same situation , what a sea russia was not a more influential country of the region, not only for the post-soviet space, for europe, gas, oil flows, special relations with the states, with germany, with france, ukraine has always been valued by russia, even when we were on the path of uprisings , it still turned out that we needed russian gas, as it was in the fourth year that we need national unity as it was in the 14th year, if russia was the guarantor of this national unity, we saw that the desire to maintain business ties with moscow remained even after the 14th year, do you remember

how strong it was until 2014 in for the majority of the ukrainian elite, ukraine was practically doomed to remain at the price of moscow, even if we became a member of the european union, we would be the same member of the european union that i apologize to hungary with a president, maybe not yanukovych, but with a government that would block all decisions that are unfavorable to moscow as it does budapest, with the largest number of deputies in the european parliament, and not to meet with the number that the hungarians have , it was 300,000 times more profitable for the russians to send us belarusians to europe to lobby for their interests, instead, they turned belarus into a concentration camp headed by this jerk. but with ukraine

, they started fighting as a result. after the 14th year , i still continued to look at the creams so that rockets or rocket fragments or something else would start falling on their heads, so that their houses would start to be broken into i have always been a pro-russian politician who was killed by russian soldiers just oh and i think that the regime that makes such political mistakes will definitely make all the following ones because on the one hand they are calculating all this but they are calculating it completely incorrectly you know this is madness not for its own benefit but it is right madness once russian oligarchs spoke about the insanity of russian politicians, oligarchs, he told me that he thinks he is crazy. he is always more free for his own benefit and not for yours, and this is true. he looks so full of idiots who zhirynovsky is only worth a billion money. he doesn’t have it with us anymore, so it’s so conditional that it’s important, but now this madness is not for their own benefit, they are undermining their own positions, and look at what

they were undermining, not only that they had such a situation with the war in ukraine, sanctions, etc. -e economic decline, they still have battles on their own territory. who could have imagined this even during the chechen wars, when there was the capture of one unfortunate, one and only maternity hospital in budonovka or some theater center on dubrovka in moscow, this there were houses, separate houses that could be captured by a separate unit of terrorists, houses not in the city, a corner near basayev, he did not capture budion, he captured children and women in the maternity hospital, but he did not have any opportunities to capture budionevska, they simply blackmailed the lives of er, er, civilian residents if this there was no special operation at all, you understand the same thing, nordoz , no one captured moscow, they captured

the inner theater center, now it's fighting in the city, everyone is talking about it shchebekino, what fighting was in the city a few months ago, i think we didn't imagine because we are talking about drones shelling moscow and falling into the cream. who could think about this on the heads of the russian elite? well, they live on the ruble and this raises the question, they do not know which of these three i do not know, they simply cannot make the right decision, that's why i believe that they will continue to make wrong decisions step by step and scollop like a cracker even in this story about the map that you told, i was so surprised and impressed once again by your brilliant analytical profanity regarding crimea, but what about it is difficult for crimea, you said that i think that russia will separate crimea and then if it is annexed again, what are we going to do

? you said that such a problem is quite seriously related to the fact that i have to tell you that this was not a forecast. not at the time of kuchma's election as the president of ukraine, there would not have been a forecast it was a special operation that was obvious it's just now given that this forecast is related to 2014 and in crimea in 1993 and 1994 there was a pro-russian president or the head of the presidential administration citizen of russia, i apologize for the name of this head of the administration in 1958, i was still a young man and i knew what kind of person he was. there was a government headed by gorbatino of the russian federation. there were ministers and citizens of the russian federation. what should i have thought? there was moscow time. president mishkov changed the time from kyiv to moscow and this already was, and from this

point of view, there was one step left before its accession to ukraine to russia. i am sure that if leonid kuchma had won the presidential elections in ukraine in 1994, instead of leonid kravchuk , they had separated crimea. the head of the idea, because they are putin, and people can be far-sighted, why do they need this unfortunate crimea to spoil relations with ukraine when they, with the help of their agents who were close to kuchma, who surrounded him like insects and the head of the presidential administration, a russian agent and other people, what are they, what are they they will simply be able to join ukraine and there was a struggle among students surrounded by them, simply when such people as volodymyr gorbulin won in this environment , as did yevgen marchuk, when leonid kushav himself

was simply fascinated by the amount of money that can be to master being the president of ukraine, you can have the power of a billionaire because he is a talented businessman because you are a good president well, they say, why are we speaking conditionally, it all did not work out for them, but in 1994, no one could predict such a development, everyone was absolutely sure that kuchma was on their side and lukashenko will somehow lead ukraine and belarus to resist, they won in one day and this is for and that is why the russian special services slowed down the special operation on the annexation of crimea for as long as 20 years, well, that's a very simple story. so it wasn't somehow mine analytical prediction this is just bulata's real danger and it was already absolutely obvious that in the eastern regions of ukraine the majority of the population has pro-russian sentiments and not in the southern regions of ukraine the pro-russian sentiments of the majority of the population. it was absolutely clear that the majority of residents of the former ukrainian reserve not only do not have an identical ukrainian national identity but are aggressively against of this identity stands out and all this became evident during the presidential

elections in 1994, it was a real national state disaster and because in 1991, these were still soviet people, you could understand why they voted for kravchuk and not for chornovol, but three years of independence had passed and an aggressive attitude towards statehood had developed among the majority of people, and the national democratic forces had to find compromises with people whose main task was the destruction of ukraine. well, it’s good again. now it’s clear to a certain extent, i wouldn’t like to say that we were lucky with this friend of the president. i never adored leonid kucha and always believed that he built this oligarchic country but simply because he was a person who also tried to keep the balance, we did not get our own lukashenka, and then when we got our own lukashenka in the form of yanukovych, we were already ready to fight, so the majority of the population still remained on anti-ukrainian positions, but already a whole generation of people

started to grow up, you understand, the youth began to grow up, that is, when they eventually strengthened enough to destroy our state , we had nothing to oppose to them, people who were born in independent ukraine, because if in 1994 it would have come to power openly pro-russian politicians, the ukrainian state would be destroyed in the same way that the belarusian state was destroyed . well, it was now in the form of a union state and now it is absolutely calm. we were just thinking from the territory of ukraine. thank you mr. vitaly for this excursion. i am sure that it was important for determining our position and let 's talk about the important event of this week . volodymyr zelensky a was at the summit of the european political community in moldova i passed the same ones. and here is my first question