[000:00:00;00] europe's ukrainian counteroffensive berlusconi has died, and we will talk about many other things over the next hour. i want to introduce today's first guest - a diplomat, extraordinary plenipotentiary ambassador of ukraine to the united nations in 2014-2019 and former ambassador of ukraine to the united states of america, volodymyr yelchenko p. volodymyr, good evening and i wish you good health. thank you for being with us. good evening serhiy. let's talk today about the death of putin's lawyer in europe, because we cannot help but remember today's event, the death of sylva berlusconi, he is one of the architects of today's putin's russia, who allowed russia under putin to develop to

an unprecedented scale, and in europe, he is among those who helped putin, francois hollande, helmut kohl, angela merkel, in a word, this is the generation of those politicians who did and did everything in order to bring russia closer to europe or, more simply, to civilization. today, putin also mentioned berlusconia. i suggest hearing what he said about berlusconi and then we continue our conversation , he was a great friend of our people and did a lot to improve business friendly relations between russia and the european countries, he was the initiator of the development of relations between

russia and the north atlantic alliance, precisely because of his participation the corresponding mechanisms of interaction and its initiation , well, first of all, it was definitely an italian politician for politicians who do not have a politician of such a scale, and the privilege was that he spoke what he thought очень жалл actually what did berlusconi do, he said what he thought and did what putin wanted because, as i already asked at the beginning of the program, during the year we heard various statements from berlusconi, but the main message

is this - ukraine is to blame for the fact that russia went to ukraine, that is, ukraine, you are in this war. what do you think , from the point of view of history and what we will get as a result already after our victory, will there be any responsibility for those politicians who have long tried to corporatize putin and his russia, authoritarian russia in the european structure and in the european structure for a long time they pretended that everything was fine and gave putin the opportunity to climb onto the pedestal from which he actually now opposes the whole world. i think that, you know , history will eventually judge all these figures

including beluskoni, who, unfortunately, did not live to see the defeat of russia , eh, maybe it changed his opinion a little, eh, on many issues, but really, he was a controversial figure, someone will remember him. the teams of milan and andrii shevchenko, well, it was such a positive page, let's say, in his relations with our state. well, then putin's playing along with today's regime really began. i think that such figures as merkel's angels have every right to stand in the same row with him. or nikolastivka with no iolant eh who came to replace eh as president of france well many others who really all these years in fact two decades even

more eh someone sincerely someone maybe thought about economic benefits more they tried involve russia, i.e. tie it to europe well, but russia showed its true face starting, well, in fact, from 2008, when it invaded georgia. well, and then there were other events related to ukraine. well, finally, i think that the vast majority of european leaders understood who they are actually dealing with, and it is because of this that we have the result in the form of the rammstein coalition , which includes, by the way, and i was struck by this figure, even more countries than were part of the anti- coalition during the second world war this the positive that uh will also be history to remember already after our victory well, people are like white people well, it is possible well, we can judge him

by calcium, uh, the italians, the italian people , uh, he did various things, but it seems to me that he is such a controversial figure will remain in the history of italy well, as in our history, it is symbolic that berlusconi passed away on russia day, today is russia day, june 12th , and er. this was announced by president zelenskyy , according to his words, the representative of the international criminal court has already visited the kherson region to be affected by the explosion of the dam. we will hear and see the zelensky region only continues with the most cynical and brutal shelling of the

flooded evacuation area. by the international criminal court, all our law enforcement officers and other boxing institutions are involved in this process, mr. volodymyr, during the last year, we have been with you quite often they talked about the role played by the united nations and other security structures, international security structures , especially during the great war between russia and ukraine. how would you rate the role of the un in the current situation, from the point of view of the reaction to the kakhovka hydroelectric power station to the dam explosion and for the entire history that is already unfolding, including with the participation of international structures such as the red cross and the non-governmental greenpeace , we think we must directly say and admit that the role of the un is under the actions of the

another terrible terrorist attack by the russians, well, the same frail and no way, as with all the previous ones, if we didn’t want to, well, it’s clear, we can’t distinguish it, let’s say the reaction of the un as an organization, well, under this , we will first of all outline the statements of the secretary general of the un or other sources of the secret of the un or other people of the organization. well, the reaction the un is a real decision. neither is the security council, but it is clear to everyone that there will be no songs about security. we heard about the security council meeting which was called by ukraine, and by the way, russia also allegedly called it in order to, you know, intercept the initiative and show that it not in anything it is her fault that she convened it herself, but in fact this was a tactical step, this is not the first time she has done this during the war , even since 2015, even after the attempted annexation of crimea and the seizure of crimea. well, the reaction of the un is really

not surprising, moreover, several have already passed days, and some managers, for example, humanitarian departments or departments of human affairs, eh, honivsky in the system continue to repeat their native mantra as such, as long as they do not have access to this place, so they cannot clearly say who is there for what who is to blame, and the un staff, as the representative of the un in kyiv, ukraine stated, cannot get to the part of the flooded areas that is not controlled by ukraine, and that is why they cannot provide assistance, but you know all this takes days, weeks, months. then , this border is not dangerous there is some kind of emergency, the eyes are getting used to this, but it is in principle normal such a traditional reaction

of the un because, unfortunately, this organization has long since , as i personally think, lost its potential and completely lost its influence on conflict resolution if we talk about the ion security council, then as long as russia sits there with its right of veto, and in general give in until the security council and the organization as a whole are not radically reformed, and it is very difficult to do, i think it is impossible at all , we have to start all over from scratch, because the system of collective security that was created by the signing of the charter in 1945 has completely exhausted itself and today we live in a completely different world where the reaction must take not months, weeks or days, but literally minutes, and it seems to me that it is completely incapable, it continues to work on those mechanisms that were laid there 77 years ago and absolutely does not correspond to

the present, so it is necessary to break all this and create something else, i have no doubt about that that this is exactly what will happen after our victory, after the defeat of russia , eh, and while after the first and second world wars , a completely new system of collective security will be created, in which there will simply be no place for such countries as russia, we have a small synchronicity antonia goteresh we will hear and see the secretary general of the un, gutersha, dear slot, the united nations, there is no access to independent information about the circumstances that led to the destruction of the kakhovka hpp dam, but one thing is clear. this is another devastating consequence of the russian invasion of ukraine, today's tragedy is another example of the enormous price of war for people the floodgates of suffering have been overflowing for over a year now it must stop attacks on civilians and

critical civilian infrastructure must stop we must act to to ensure responsibility and respect for international humanitarian law above all i call for a just peace in accordance with the united nations charter of international law and the resolution of the un general assembly go there and strive volodymyr re we know how the league of nations ended its work by self-dissolution and we know that before that, in 1939, when the soviet-finnish war began, the soviet union was excluded from the league of nations, and if we are already talking about reformatting , reformatting is still possible according to your there will be enough strength and will to exclude russia in the organization of the united nations. moreover , there is a formal reason for this, not hmm

, the statutory entry of russia into the united nations as the legal successor of the soviet union, or is it possible, that is, and how far according to you, i am ready to say from the high rostrum of the un general assembly that russia should not be here at all, that is, what russia is doing is a crime, it is terrorism, and it is not on a global scale, not only in this case of ukrainians, but also in general you know , it seems to me that the readiness of other countries is... before the expulsion of russia from the un and the un security council, in particular, or depending primarily on the activity of ukrainian diplomacy, we need to work more actively with our partners, because you know this issue

, well, until now, it lies more in you know, theoretically, as i told the research plane, that is, a lot has been written about this, but what to do is that russia illegally became a member instead of the former soviet union, but in practice this does not yet lead to any really effective steps, although in principle there are already signs are certain moreover, this is literally as of today, yesterday, several months ago, and at the end of last year. well, for example, american diplomacy began to deal more seriously with this matter, on the one hand, american diplomats in the un and the us department began to speak more openly about the need to change the membership security lies, for example, there is the inclusion of other countries, but they have not yet touched on the specific question of the place that russia starts there on the other hand, since i know on

autumn, somewhere around september of this year, hearings are planned in the us congress, which were initiated. by the way, with the help of the ukrainian group of communities, which is engaged in this kind of non-governmental organization, in fact, but it also includes people's deputies and international lawyers, and it is also well-known that it is precisely engaged in the promotion of this the question is the understanding of that and, well, let's say that in a good way , information has been spread among our partners in other countries about why exactly this one is sitting there illegally, because if it didn't sound nice, let's drive it out or we will exclude it from this zone for violating the un charter if it has been doing it every day for the last several years, but it sounds beautiful, but it is actually not unrealistic , because for this it is necessary to reduce russia itself from not applying the right veto to the corresponding decision, but here if we take a purely legal, procedural and formal route

, the powers of russia are not recognized precisely because it is engaged in, of course, illegally, it has never been accepted. and there is a clear order of consideration and security of decision making an ideal assembly, then there is a vote and so on that russia did not even bother to criticize the statute, that is, as it is written in the statute that one of the permanent members of the security is the ussr, so it remains, that is, even such a country does not exist in the statute. took and practiced that charter even so , but they didn’t even do that, that is, they just absolutely cynically openly spit on me the right to all the statutory documents, starting with them and the un charter, so in the process, where is it as fast as we wanted. by the way, i also go to the initiative group of what they called public assets. i hope that

the activity of such a public sector in ukraine is not only in ukraine, it will still lead to serious discussions on this topic and in first of all, it should be connected with the beginning of the next session of the anal assembly, when in september everyone is going to fly to new york, and this will be exactly the time when you will very actively raise this issue , raise it, consider it, i think that the result will be known for the time being that the damages from the destruction of the kakhov hpp already amount to more than 1.5 billion euros, the estimated amount of damages announced by the ukrainian side . to feed the whole world for two days but here , so far, nothing has been said about

the world's food security, because the south of ukraine is a large agro-industrial complex and fields where grain and other crops were grown cultures that were then delivered to the same africa, we know that this week on june 16-17 the leaders of seven african countries will come to st. peter for the economic forum, but they will first come to volodymyr zelenskyi and then to vladimir putin with the so-called peace plan and what is this for the peace plan, it is not yet clear, although it will probably be very similar to the peace plan of brazil, the peace plan of indonesia, the peace plan of china, although in china it is a declaration, rather, it was a view of what is happening in ukraine, according to your opinion. the global south is now able to somehow articulate its problems because what putin has done is actually creating big problems

for africa, for countries that have always been importers of our grain products, this ecosystem, the food ecosystem that has existed in the world until now, has actually been destroyed because earlier they made a grain corridor there, and now they have completely taken over and destroyed the entire system that grew all this according to yours. the same south african republic in order to at least somehow influence vladimir putin, er, i really hope for that, in general , i think it would be better to visit not the st. petersburg forum, but to go to kherson or at least to bucha, but one way or another, i am sure that after the meeting with the president of ukraine, volodymyr zelenskyi, those african leaders

will change their minds and direct their efforts more, as you say, to the formation of vladimir putin. - that's because they are very concerned about the price there satisfaction for the grain, but they should understand that it all started. all these problems started not because ukraine began to export less there, but because putin started a war in ukraine and, er, under the mushroom of the kakhovka hpp - that's just another one, you know. a step towards a food catastrophe, because if this continues, we have already had the opinion of some experts that even this is just a catastrophe. it can lead to a decrease of uh, well , the so-called agricultural potential of ukraine by 15%, uh, i am sure that this

will mean, of course, from the latest prices and not only for grain, and there and for vegetables, fruits, meat, and so on. and everything. this will be felt first of all by the countries of africa, the middle east, because they are the main and partners of ukrainian food. well, let's really hope that such educational work with them is the president’s so for a better understanding and for them not even to put forward some soapy plans which, as practice shows, do not carry anything because uh, you know the worst thing is not even that they do not take into account all national the interests of ukraine and the fact that they are blindly rewriting each other, well, here you can take chinese plans, brazilian plans , or indonesian men's plans, and the late mr. beluskonii put forward some of his plans, and they all boil down to the fact that you should stop, make peace, and make peace in this soap in the whole world, but it is also not necessary to look at the roots of this, as they call the conflict, and in fact, what are you

there, in fact, the war of russia against ukraine, and in general, not only against ukraine, but who is it in fact, all of europe, so you know, i'm still trying to find a positive in this, and such a visit is a plan. it should lead to a better understanding, to the rapprochement of our countries, to better relations, they will better understand our problems, maybe it really is. will eventually lead to their understanding of the roots of the problem, and among other things. by the way, in that woman, without them, the nation has the same votes in these countries in favor of all the resolutions put forward by ukraine, and maybe when it comes to the expulsion of russia from the composition of the un, they will be able, as they say, to fall for these initiatives and the same african and other countries that today take such a neutral, positive position , let's say so far, but by no means about ukraine

, global security in the 22nd year has noticeably deteriorated compared to that was 10 years ago, the experts of the stockholm international institute for the study of peace problems came to this conclusion and they issued another annual report where they talk about this very thing, although it is absolutely obvious to the whole world after russia captured zaporizhzhya the npp committed an act of aggression against ukraine and, in fact, over the past 15 months , the zaporizhia npp has been blackmailing the grid. and from which they do not feel that they are in danger, that is, we have a cascade of these hydroelectric power plants, five of them, including the kyiv hpp, we have the zaporizhia npp, we also

have other nuclear power plants, that is, according to yours, is there a limit for who are the russians next? well, they won't go and just say that well, it's basically unrealistic for them to touch the nuclear power plant there or to use the nuclear power plant in the war against ukraine. although i appeared again today, the information that they mined the crimean titan plant is on the isthmus, which is between is the administrative border of ukraine and crimea, and you can expect anything from them. well, you know, it's hard for me to say. well, maybe the only and uh , uh, uh, harmony that the russians or putin did not come. this is the use of nuclear weapons, but here as they say, they are getting to the nuclear power plants, i need to get to chernobyl, there were already huge problems

during their efforts to reach kyiv, then these events began around and inside the zaporizhzhia npp and who knows. that they are still capable of exactly that, and i am surprised by such a rather bare reaction between any community. well, it is not that they do not support us and do not say that russia is to blame for the gravy of the kakhovka hpp, but it just seems to me that they do not fully realize that it could be more not the end. and if you don't react to it immediately, instantly and much more seriously than just making a statement to the press, then this can really end. defeat at the front and in general at the collation of russia as such as a state. i am not talking about its occupation

, i do not think about it, and russia is not needed by anyone , but at least they can only be stopped by a total defeat at the front, which should just lead to chaos within the country a unfortunately, many countries, including the task of partners, they are very afraid of everything, although these are the things that the west cannot and will not influence, and ukraine cannot influence it either, we are talking about the liberation of our territory and the help that is needed us in order to do this and what will happen next in russia is decided by the russian people , but you know to be afraid that this will lead to some kind of aggravation there to some other escalation i don't know what other escalation can be it is possible to test us today, volodymyr, the chancellor of germany is offshore, it is the president of poland, andrzej duda, they flew to the not-president

of france, macron’s manual is being discussed in paris, they are discussing the issue of providing security guarantees for ukraine, we know that the summit of the north atlantic alliance will take place in vilnius in july. what do you think is the option of the possible and predicted can be discussed and adopted at the summit of the north atlantic alliance because, if not at this summit, the issue of ukraine will not be discussed and the guarantees of ukraine will not be will happen then it is not at all clear, again, as with the united nations, why do we need such a nato if it does not respond to the challenges that stand nearby and to those challenges that threaten , including nato member countries, you know , this is a very difficult question i would like to give a simple answer to him. but unfortunately, there is no such answer, and probably the search for this answer is the main question of this

meeting. what are the people and macron in paris ? formats will stop being included in vinnytsia e-e there and then we perfectly understand that within nato we have a lot of friends, but there are maybe a few less, but there are those countries that are still skeptical about the prospect of ukraine's membership in nato, at least a quick one. well , the question is not about time. the question is that we, uh, in fact, since 2008, through the bulgarian nato, we have been seeking and knocking on this door , and there is only one reaction, is nato's door open for ukraine ? now you don't even know nothing can replace better than membership in nato such security guarantees

that we are talking about. well, if all nato members are there , as you know, there must be a consensus, and apparently it is not there yet. well, we all hope that it can still be reached before vilnius but if this cannot be done, then at least it should not be a re-opened door to some final declaration, but a specific document that will spell out exactly what security guarantees nato is ready to give to ukraine by the time when we can become members of this organization of this aviation, it could be a lot of things, this is the stable supply of weapons, weapons, and financial aid. now they are talking about this model, well, let's tentatively call it israel plus, that is, the special relations of the united states with it and the help that the united states provides to israel. although this country has never declared a desire to become a member of nato but the israelis of ukraine. it is a much smaller country, it has its own

specifics and knows. even geographically , let's say so, it is far from the halo of nato, but with us, the situation is completely different, and we need something more specific. moreover, if we say about this israeli formula. and this is essentially what is called the main ally of the united states of america, then all the help that is given to the country in this status, it does not work for us now even more. the countries of germany, great britain, poland, well, tens of such countries, in fact, the whole of rammstein is more than 50 and they all help us but this is not yet a guarantee of security we need something much