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in the next few minutes, about important things in simple language available to all viewers in the studio of iryna koval and for your attention news summary of the week every saturday at 9:00 p.m. we continue the saturday polyclip program anzhelika sezonka and vitaly portnikov and our guest is a professor of political science who is the scientific director of the fund at the mohyla academy of the yaka kuchereva democratic initiative oleksiy garan congratulations mr. oleksia we congratulate you on your birthday victory is the most important victory there many summers we will win we will not sing many summers no no no voice so let's sing so off-air, mr. oleksiy, let's discuss the peace plan of the african union, which was represented by the african presidents who were in kyiv, today they are in moscow meeting with the president of the russian

federation, vladimir putin, in st. petersburg, yesterday they met with the president of ukraine, volodymyr zelenskyi , they survived the siege of kyiv, in general, how much of a plan is this plan well, i think that this is actually we can't say that this is a plan because a-ah it was heard it was heard in a speech at a press conference a-ah from the mouth of the president of par but we heard such a sufficient emotional and critical reaction on the part of zelensky that for now, if there is no such plan as such, and on the contrary, he seems to have played ahead. he said that you will go to moscow and then announce something there after him, then we will not have such surprises by the way, i just re-watched the news about their visit to moscow , the latest news is that the negotiations have started. but

before that, there was putin's speech and putin welcomed the balanced approach of african leaders. well , if putin welcomes the balanced approach in his paws auto, there must be something like that and uh, that’s not right, if we look at these 10 points announced to the presidents of the couple, again, we can’t really understand whether this is a road map. or is it , well, it’s clearly not a road map. it’s just a set of some some theses, some of them sound good, for example, respect for territorial sovereignty and the need to comply with the un charter, well, not bad . yes, but then, if. well, the next logical step is to say that we are calling for

russia to respect the territorial integrity of ukraine. escalation from both sides is what we heard in ramopoz's speech a-and that's why , as far as i'm concerned, it's not a plan, at least not a road map, and again, this conference was very interesting, i attended it all today i listened to the five leaders and the reaction of our president. i don't know if anyone watched it or not. i would say that she was hot. that is, there are enough emotional spins and very critical reactions on the part of our president. i will say directly that even in some places. it was, well, maybe not very diplomatic, no very much in line with the standards of diplomacy well, but it is obvious that he was caught by the eyes these are some general pharmacy pharmacy formulations because

one of them spoke about the crisis of ramopos, the truth is that he lived the term war several times so, i think that president zelensky is right to say that there is a completely pragmatic interest i added from myself the cynical interest of africans, which is that give us grain and give us fertilizers. well, that is clear. we are also interested in the supply of ukrainian grain so that we can export it normally, the agreement on this is valid, it has been signed russia is breaking down. well, let's ensure that it is implemented. these are my impressions of, well, i'm not talking about what happened on the eve of this press conference, when reuters was quoted as having taken the documents of this road map somewhere, and nothing was

clear there at all. i.e. in english it was written pull out of troops a pull out can be translated as a withdrawal which is good but it can be translated as withdrawal i.e. freezing the conflict then there were these ideas of reducing sanctions against russia or the issue of finally canceling the warrant for the arrest of putin yes what is it so far? i would say more behind the scenes on diplomacy that can be used for propaganda purposes. well, africans present themselves as peacekeepers, and this is especially important for president ramoposa . south africa was once very active in peacekeeping issues, particularly in africa. and south african diplomacy had a great capital and achievements, but they squandered it, in fact, the south africans themselves

are talking about it. well, besides, these scandals that are currently in a couple about the possible supply of weapons to russia, uh, there is a free press that works in pairs so, so, somehow, he needs to get out of this situation somehow, he needs to get out of this situation, and in front of tam bricks himself , because so far, once again, ramoposa says that i invited putin, but we will discuss it and so on. well, i think that my prediction is the same as yours in italy, that if uh, if putin comes there , no one will arrest him, will not dare to do that . by the way, mr. oleksiyovych, do you think that it is possible that they invented this whole peace plan with amafos in order to finally suspend putin's warrant, that's the same is

part of this plan to suspend, that's the problem that we don't know, uh, you had this, how is it subjunctive, uh, subtitles, yes, they went. what 10 points of this plan are what ramaposa said, well, there is no such thing, there is no such thing, therefore, in fact, we do not we know what is there. what is being discussed there, and that is, i am saying that there are different, different, different aspects of the court , they are just propaganda, there is a quite obvious pragmatic goal, the pragmatic goal of food and fertilizers, and the propaganda camouflage goes on. and talked with both sides, nothing came of it. well, we have to do this. this and that is quite possible. it is absolutely obvious that putin will also use this for his foreign and domestic political propaganda on africa . the russians are working very powerfully and immediately. i

would like to say that in a month there will be a russia-africa summit and it will be in st. petersburg and last year this summit was postponed it was postponed it was because of the war in ukraine that it will now take place, well, it is obvious that at it they will talk about african leaders will talk about territorial integrity, about respect for the un charter, and so on, and so on , but then it will still be used as a big propagandistic, er, propagandistic picture, and it will say that, that's how i'm recognized in the world, how i'm recognized, here's the global south with me, global the south, where more than half of humanity lives there, that is, china and india, they are with me, all this will be used in his propaganda, but

not everything is lost, that is, we have to work. i'm watching your program carefully. yesterday, our ukrainian activist analyst from france spoke and she said that the ukrainians of france do not speak french. i specifically checked this, and that is, i asked you from french people who deal with this topic, and it turned out that he is not fluent but he knows enough to communicate without translators. do you remember that i asked her because i knew it too? well, yes, that's why. well, you see, the hohol won't believe it until he checks it, that is, i checked it. i wrote it there, you don't trust me. mr. oleksiy, but it’s like that, i trust you, i trust you

completely, but i said don’t believe it until you don’t believe it. that is to say, this is to the point that our diplomacy is a big problem in africa too. we will activate our own position, although you know some things about me . for example, you know how they say, good, i think it will come. but after that, there were at least three muslim countries in this delegation. that is, it is senegal - it is egypt, one of the leading arab countries, and it the comoros islands, again, i can quote you here, the country is small, but it is the one that is leading the union now , and here is the topic of the muslims of the crimean tatars, well, at least at the conference, at the press conference, it did not come up. in my opinion, this is a winning topic , especially when we talk with in muslim countries, in fact, it seems to us that this problem is known, but in fact, it is not

, sometimes even in the leading muslim countries, they do not know much about it. so let's not forget that there are many muslim countries in africa, and we also have this topic raise it and she will find the video. well, the main thing is to change the narrative. change the narrative. by the way, there is a woman standing here - this is pandora . she is the minister of foreign affairs of africa. she is a political activist from the african national congress, and what is interesting is that the ministry of foreign affairs is the ministry of foreign affairs . what is the apparatus of this ministry and during the time immediately after the invasion they issued an absolutely correct statement that aggression russia should withdraw its troops from ukraine and this statement is still hanging on the website of the ministry of foreign affairs, but itself

minister, she plays such a neutrality, yes, because it corresponds to the lines of the african national congress, that is, ruling parties , although this is not neutrality at all. their argument is that we are neutral because we are non-aligned in russia. oh, you didn't learn history well. and we, mr. vitaliy, taught history well and we remember that 1955 was the year of the creation of the non-aligned movement, which just meant that these countries they have always taken a very active position in condemning the war against the aggressor against colonialism and that is why here we have our own arguments, again we can explain to them our anti-colonial narrative and when yesterday the president mentioned the park he always

mentioned nelson nelson mandela well by the way that zelensky said that we know the history of nelson mandela, but we were our own fighters, our struggle was also long, long, and we also had our own nelson mandelas, relatively speaking and academically, lukyanenko served 27 years equal to how long nelson mandela and levko lukyanenko sat, then he extended his hand to the communists who wanted the independence of ukraine and i said i am extending my hand to them so that we have a lot in our history and a lot of things and there are arguments that we can convey to africans in addition to the essence pragmatic except for grain, but they are also very important. because, again, the akacid eh kakhovsky hpp is a threat of hunger, the situation at the zaporizhzhia npp is also a threat of increasing hunger in these regions, so

all this should be raised with them and with them to talk although it is not just that it was an attack or such an action was planned when the spokesman in particular of the president said that there was no missile attack and there were no explosions he did not hear anything like that and then ramaphosa denied it, he said that indeed there was a missile attack and i will quote he said so today during our visit we heard missile strikes this kind of activity does not work very well for the establishment of peace that is why we are talking about the need for de-escalation on both sides so that the world can find a way to come and settle to be honest, i, and once again, specifically watched this press conference because i was wondering what the president himself would say and whether they would use the word war, so president park

used it. here and there they talked about the crisis, but yes, i will clarify, mr. oleksiy. can i have a question? why is he talking about the fact that there must be an escalation on both sides when he is sitting in cover and russian missiles are flying at him? these questions are rhetorical. what i want to say is that this is often not the first embarrassment at the level. the president of par, because about six months ago, apostola told the presidents that uh, the anc, that is, the ruling party made a decision that par will leave the international criminal court, and this was an absolutely sensational statement, and the next day, no, i will tell you now when it was . it was at the end of april because i was still in a couple and i had one meeting that broke up because of it because there was a terrible scandal, everyone was running around grabbing their heads and i didn't know how to react, and then the next day they said that

they were wrong well, not exactly, there was no such decision that's why such embarrassments fall into south africa's diplomacy. well, in general , we can say that in african diplomacy and not only. and you don't remember how president luula said that crimea can be given to russia and then denied it. this is despite the fact that brazil constantly votes in the un for the territorial integrity of ukraine well, lola, something, something, it was decided, well, different things happen in diplomacy, you know that there was no meeting with zelenskyi, he was in hiroshima , and here brazil is making claims that there was an agreement, zelenskyi did not appear. most likely, there were no technical connections, but then zelenskyi did not say very well , and lugla took offense at this at the press conference , now yermak ot recently called celsius marim, this is to help the president of brazil, it means

the need to strengthen ties, so to speak i received a phone call from brazil that the question of zelensky's possible visit to brazil was raised, but i honestly don't really believe in this information, well, that's what brazilian journalists say, that is, in diplomacy , different things happen, and if but if we are talking about the position of the couples, look here there are two points, the first point is that it is corruption, i am not saying this directly about ramoposa, yes, but i am saying this about his predecessor zuma, who was imprisoned for corruption , but then he was released and the judicial gypsy, it still continues, it was terminated through the court, the contracts signed by growth atom regarding the construction of a steam nuclear reactor, that is, there is corruption and it is at the highest, highest level

. here is one channel of influence for you, the second channel is speculation on africa's mistrust of the countries of the west there, the argument is very simple - this is colonialism, but russia does not have a colony in africa, and this is very deeply embedded in them, and again, on this topic, you can discuss a lot, uh , that russia was also an empire, the soviet empire, and so on. and so on, what is politics and russia and china. she is by no means unselfish. but nevertheless, it is very much in the minds of africans that we need to maintain balances, that the west is a bad west, because it is responsible for colonialism in africa, and that is why it is now a bad west wants to destroy russia and ukraine here it is only an object and here it is very important for us to translate this narrative into another

that we have a lot in common with africans in the sense that we fought for the colonial lead can set their own starting positions and they can differ and the very fact that the chinese agree and they still decided to return to the diplomatic track at a high level, it indicates that the ice may begin to break. turkey, as far as you can see, is very capable of understanding. now they are expecting a congressional delegation, let's say from the united states in ankara, it is about turkey, yes, about turkey transversely, i wanted to move on to the topic

of turkey, you understand. it seems to me that now it is so little. the new government of ertuğan, they need to somehow destabilize the domestic political economic situation, that is , it will somehow stabilize the lira. well, there is also a larger number of ministries, that is, the ministry of foreign affairs, there is a new the leader and accordingly they are really more busy now with the preparation of staffing and working out some new new options for development, and that is why now we see a certain pause , perhaps just this pause can be used by the americans precisely in order to consolidate er, er, er, this turkish-american very

it is a difficult track to try to move it from a standstill, but it must be remembered that the key problem of this track is planes and the congress categorically refuses to give these planes because these planes can be used in syria and where and now, that is, during a military operation that is not authorized by nato or anyone else and is, in fact, a part of such a complex war against turkey. therefore , this is a question. there is something to think about and i ask you to speak taking into account the position ertuğan on sweden, according to erdoğan's position, on other issues in nato, we see now that turkey has once again blocked a decision there, which

is related to working together , is suitable for russian aggression, and joint planning is also used here. absolutely such as it seems to me worthless m-m a-a methods methods well, for example, there are clinging to us cities or well . thus, northern cyprus is meant, and thus, obviously , turkey thinks that it is thus protecting its national interests, but these are hooks that constantly turkey will do and there will be a lot, and it is necessary to prepare for very difficult relations between turkey and the united states of america, the only thing that can change the situation is, of course, the further weakening of russia, but for turkey, well, it will no longer be of such interest, although here i i have great doubts that this option will work for a weakened russia for

turkey. it might look even more attractive. so here it can be a double-edged sword. by the way, an interesting precedent occurred in relations between turkey and sweden, because on june 12, sweden approved the extradition to turkey of a man who supported the kurds. he was convicted of drug trafficking and this is the first time that such a person will be extradited to turkey or is it from sweden and so, let's say, a certain compromise in order for turkey to soften your position regarding sweden's accession to nato well, here you see, you said a very correct word about a compromise, the problem is that turkey looks like it does not want a compromise in sweden, that is, by and large, it is not interested in sweden, they are interested in the americans, and sweden - this is just an excuse to complain to the americans and force them to extract the maximum number of er-er of some types, that is, this is how i see this